Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

Bennett Prescott

Bennett Prescott

Just This Guy, You Know?
Staff member
Jan 10, 2011
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Wallingford, CT
www.bennettprescott.com
It's been a while since I've had to point at it, but the Quick and Dirty Bar Rig available on my website still gets lots of traffic. I last updated it in 2010, and it no longer reflects the state of the art. I am considering updating it with the help of the community. While I've been able to hear and play with a bunch of the gear I think would be best for it at this point, I am missing a few data points.

Questions:
  1. Has anyone been able to pick a solid favorite for a $1,000 - $1,400 powered subwoofer? There are only three or four contenders, but I feel like this is the biggest compromise in the system.
  2. Opinions on the Behringer X32 Compact versus the Studiolive 16.4.2AI? I think the big Behringer is unbeatable, but also big. This PA should fit in a normal sized car, in my opinion.
  3. Is it now time to eliminate all outboard at FOH except a modern digital mixer and a laptop (which, presumably, is already owned)?
  4. How does everyone feel about having no graphic EQs for the monitors?

Here is what I propose:
  1. Replace Yamaha mixer with Behringer or Presonus.
  2. Replace Mackie mains with Presonus StudioLive 328i.
  3. Replace Mackie monitors with QSC K10 or K12.
  4. Consider replacing subwoofer(s), which I feel are a requirement.
  5. Eliminate all FOH outboard items (CD Player, EQs, DSP, etc).
  6. Update prices on other items.

I have attached a copy of the current version for reference.
 

Attachments

Bennett Prescott said:
It's been a while since I've had to point at it, but the Quick and Dirty Bar Rig available on my website still gets lots of traffic. I last updated it in 2010, and it no longer reflects the state of the art. I am considering updating it with the help of the community. While I've been able to hear and play with a bunch of the gear I think would be best for it at this point, I am missing a few data points.

Questions:
  1. Has anyone been able to pick a solid favorite for a $1,000 - $1,400 powered subwoofer? There are only three or four contenders, but I feel like this is the biggest compromise in the system.
  2. Opinions on the Behringer X32 Compact versus the Studiolive 16.4.2AI? I think the big Behringer is unbeatable, but also big. This PA should fit in a normal sized car, in my opinion.
  3. Is it now time to eliminate all outboard at FOH except a modern digital mixer and a laptop (which, presumably, is already owned)?
  4. How does everyone feel about having no graphic EQs for the monitors?
Click to expand...

1. I think the skill of the operator has more impact than the exact box, but the jbl and qsc powered boxes in that price range stand out above the rcf, Mackie, etc.

2. I think I would list both the studio live and x32 as an either or since they hit different user styles.

3. I typically carry a 2 space outboard rack with a sabine navigator dsp used mostly for eq, but I do a lot of shows with either a studio live or a 01v and no outboard at all.

4. I typically use the output graphics or parametrics on the digital boards rather than additional outboard graphics.
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

Bennett Prescott said:
  1. Opinions on the Behringer X32 Compact versus the Studiolive 16.4.2AI? I think the big Behringer is unbeatable, but also big. This PA should fit in a normal sized car, in my opinion.
  2. Is it now time to eliminate all outboard at FOH except a modern digital mixer and a laptop (which, presumably, is already owned)?
  3. How does everyone feel about having no graphic EQs for the monitors?
Click to expand...
I think in that perspective any of the x32compact, x32rack or studiolive16ai is a close call. All of them can be used remotely

The studiolive is easy to use and setup and has the benefit of a poor mans smaart tool. I own the sl24 and x32 today and find both to be valuable tools. However I must admit that I'm more biased towards the x32 due to its flexability in different situations.

The x32-series has the added benefit of digital stagebox and expandable up to 32(40) channels, 16 auxes and the digital personal monitoring system. It also hold a greater fx-section with up to 16 separately controllable fx (assignable as eight engines). Moving faders on the hardware is a plus in my book.

The x32 can play music from an usb-stick that can also be controlled by a scene change. This more or less eliminates the need of a laptop if you are using ipads/iphones.

All mentioned mixers have onboard peq and geq available on the outputs so there is no loss of monitor eq.

My personal favorite would be the x32rack with a possible addition of the stagebox and/or the personal monitor.
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

First off, I have referred a good number of folks to your old Q&D bar rig page, so kudos to you for the update.

My opinions on your questions:
1. Only two worth mentioning in that price range, IMHO: 618/718XLF and KW181.
2. More a style choice, but I would put the DL1608 in the mix as an option as well.
3. Yes.
4. I can work with either. N00bs might be more comfortable with graphic. YMMV.

My comments on your proposals:
- I'd keep mains/monitors all the same model. K12, PRX712, DXR12, all are good options.
- Consider the DL1608 as a mixer option.

Just my $0.02.
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

Most definitely the DL1608 - small, wireless, GEQs on all outputs. The RCF310a is pretty much unbeatable for FOH and monitor duty for its price and small size. 718XLF or KW181 for sure. Personally I still prefer passive subs (TH-Mini, about the same output as the XLF above 50 Hz) and monitors (10" coaxial) partially for their smaller size but actives are the "in" thing :D~:-D~:grin:.
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

The DL1608 is the board of choice for many local bands in the Seattle area. Since purchasing mine I've seen 5 other bands follow. There's a 31 band digital grahic EQ on each of the 7 outputs. I've sold or selling my analog gear.

I just picked up my JBL 618-xlf's for $900 each, new at GC. Love them! My friend has the QSC QW's and loves them as well. I'm using mine with a PRX500 series system, but plan on upgrading to the newer tops and adding (2) more xlf's.

For monitors I'm using Yamaha DSR112's. They're a wood box built like a tank, shaped like a monitor wedge, and screaming loud (in a good way). Street price somewhere between 750 & 800 each?
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

I still feel that Yamaha 01v96 is the most solid board you can buy at this level. The Behringer has more bells and whistles, but it's road worthiness has yet to be proved. I feel like the Studiolive is a big turd as well. My 01v's are the biggest money maker in my inventory, and they've never given me a single problem.

The JBL PRX series would be my pick for all around speakers. The 735's/718XLF for mains, and 712m's for monitors. Granted, I feel the 600 series was a better all around box, the 700 still sounds nice, and a lot better than the QSC K stuff. I would never want to build a rig around the K series- KW maybe, but the K's just fall apart when you lay in to them.

I agree, all outboard can be eliminated. The built in EQ is plenty.



Evan
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

"4.How does everyone feel about having no graphic EQs for the monitors?"

Of course the Presonus has Graphic EQ for monitors and I'm pretty sure the X32 also does.
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

I'm thinking Behringer X32Rack plus laptop and iPad.
PRX735 without subs or PRX712/718XLF.
PRX712 or EV ELX112P for monitors.
Compact, quick rigging, no hassle.
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

Steve Garris said:
For monitors I'm using Yamaha DSR112's. They're a wood box built like a tank, shaped like a monitor wedge, and screaming loud (in a good way). Street price somewhere between 750 & 800 each?
Click to expand...

This.

I'd like graphics on the monitors but "inboard" is more than OK, as long as it can be accessed fairly quickly.

Chris
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

For mixers I have the following comments (in no particular order):

The Expression Si is definitely worth a look. I believe it is one of the easiest to navigate and strikes a really nice balance between features and ease of use. The down sides are that the remote application isn't as flexible or easy to use as some of the others, and if you want multi-track recording, you have to shell out another 1K for a MADI card to get it. Also, this mixer only has 14 vs 16 faders on the other models in this class. The meter bridge is only 4 segment from barely audible to clip.

Lots of people are fans of the Allen & Heath Qu-16. Like the Soundcraft, it strikes a great balance between features and ease of use. One really nice strong suit on this mixer is that you can do multi-track record and playback with only a USB hard drive connected. The down sides are a less powerful remote app than some of the others, and no possibility of expanding the channel count above 16. The meter bridge is only 3 segment and is quite small. Not sure how useful this really is live.

As you point out, the StudioLive AI's have a place in the show for sure. They are easy to use, and have the absolute best in class remote application IMHO. I like it even better than the DL1608 (which is my second choice for best iPad mixer interface). The lack of motorized faders, the very low mix bus count, and the lack of recall-able gain's are the obveous down sides of this mixer. I would also add that the non-AI versions also had a practically non-usable HPF having a slope of only 6db/octave. I don't know if this was fixed on the AI series or not, but I know it was a thorn for many guys I know who use the older version. The meter bridge on the SL is simply unmatched by anything in this price range.

As far as the X32's go, In order to be in the same marketing category as the ones I listed above, the only real competitor is the X32 Producer. The X32 series in general offer the most features and flexibility of any mixers in this category IMHO. They require some time to learn to setup (more for me since I came from analog and never had a digital before). If you want the most features, and like the idea of being able to setup a great custom rig for your own personal use, this is a great mixer. I think that it lacks in usability for a new user in comparison to the other mixers in this group. This is particularly true because of the 8 fader per layer model it uses and its lack of LCD scribble strips that its bigger brothers have. The other mixers in this catagory don't have LCD scribble strips either; however, they don't need it nearly as bad since they all have much less need to switch layers to see all channels like the Producer. The meter bridge is decent having a 6 segment LED which you can see fairly well.

Non-traditional mixers

If you are willing to give up most or all of your physical interface and replace it with a tablet and/or PC, there are a couple of options:

The DL1608 is positively tiny and easy to carry. It can do more than most analog rigs, and can be had for around $850.00 if you look around. Nothing touches it with respect to size and price IMHO. The remote app is very good .... nearly as good as the StudioLive. The downsides are that it doesn't have recallable gains, and there is no option for multi-track recording.

My current favorite (if one would just show up in the states) is the X32 Rack. It isn't quite as small as the DL1608, but it packs all the features of the full X32. The iPad app on the X32's is very flexible, but not as well laid out as the DL1608 and SL apps. The X32 Rack also sports a minimal interface which you can work with in a pinch even if you lost your iPad and/or PC control. It is only my favorite due to the fact that I mix from stage and can't get to the physical interface anyway.

These last two are only an option if you can live with the lack of a physical interface. I have yet to hear from a sound provider that runs a show from out front that felt they were ready to rid themselves of a physical interface, but YMMV ;)

As for the speakers, I did lots of personal testing of the powered subs (KSub, KW181, PRX618S, PRX618S-XLF, DSR118, CVA118 and the HD1801). I can say that the XLF is simply in a class by itself in this group. There are those that like the KW181 (which would be my 2nd choice), but I have a neighbor that has a KW rig with these just down the road. When you compare them side by side, the XLF's just sound better and punchier (less woofey sound).

I would get a matching set of monitors and tops using the PRX712's for both and get a pair of PRX718XLF's. If you want to save some money and can find the 6XX series, they are absolutely fine speakers to own as well.
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

I think that a digital mixer with 32 input/16 outputs is too much for a bar band, also has a pretty large footprint. Most of everything on your list is still good.

If I was to build a bar rig:

Mixer: A&H Qu16 (I've been running bands on an 01V96 on the 12ch set-up)
Mains: db Tech DVX D15 (I'd say easily good for ~200 person crowds, covers all the bars in my area)
Subs: JBL PRX#18-XLF (I like my SRX718, if budget allows VRX918SP)
Monitors: EV ELX12 (sound good and get decently loud, I think these are the Yamaha Clubs of Powered speakers; disclaimer: I haven't heard the Yamaha powered gear)

Lights: Chauvet SlimPar 56 (comes in 4 packs)

Mic stands: Whirlwind (they are like $30 and good for at least ~150 show)

DIs: EWI passive & active

Snare: Audix i5 (it's durable)
Toms: Sennheiser e604
 
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Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

Are you still trying to hit the $17,000-$20,000 price point as is the last QD Rig?

I think your original rig still holds up pretty well with just a refresh of the console, speakers and processing. Do you need a drive rack processor at this level? Also, do we need to include a CD player any more? Or will a Peavey USB-P DI and 1/8" to two-XLR cable be enough for the random laptops and iPods that people will bring?

Powered speakers definitely. I haven't heard the PRX stuff, I'm sure it's good. But I know that the QSC K12s with the KW181 subs sound pretty damn good and get pretty loud. Seems like the Yorkville stuff that everyone was in love with 6 or 7 years ago has lost it's lustre some.

The cheap Korean knock off of the countryman Type 85 DI sold by EWI seems like it could be a good choice for a DI at this level and save some money over the Radial DIs.

I also agree with Evan on the board. The 01V96i can be had for $1850 (a quote I got yesterday), along with an 8 channel outboard pre from Presonus or Focusrite should cover the inputs and outputs that will be needed. The lack of graphic EQs is what will kill most novice users for this purpose.
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

If you need a powered sub, and can spare the cargo space and the extra budget, the JTR powered Orbit Shifter would provide enough subbage for most any bar, and many small outdoor shows.
 
I demo'd a pair of Turbosound M15 yesterday, they sound better than the PRX (500 and 600 series at least), my only reservation is whether they have enough output for a bar band.

The limiters engage quite easily running in full range mode with some bass heavy music, it was possible to get the signal pumping with the limiters. Engaging the high pass allowed for a lot more volume though.

I hope to gig a pair soon, might be a worthy competitor as they are significantly cheaper than the PRX level gear.


Sent from my iPhone
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

I did a gig earlier this year with a 44 box monitor system consisting of JBL VT4886, PRX, VP and Turbosound Milan M10/15. The JBL's was by far the easiest boxes to mix on and had outperformed the Turbos in volume and feedback stability. I have however never tried the Turbos as mains, so I can't comment on that. This was an outdoor stage with no roof, all speakers was outside for two weeks in all kinds of weather, two Turbos failed because of the weater, but no JBL's.

As a side note: Do not restart a Studer Vista connected to a Soundcraft Stage rack with a Vi6 as slave desk on the same rack. Lost 16 4886 HF drivers in the main pa that way....
 
Helge Dr. Bentsen said:
I did a gig earlier this year with a 44 box monitor system consisting of JBL VT4886, PRX, VP and Turbosound Milan M10/15. The JBL's was by far the easiest boxes to mix on and had outperformed the Turbos in volume and feedback stability. I have however never tried the Turbos as mains, so I can't comment on that. This was an outdoor stage with no roof, all speakers was outside for two weeks in all kinds of weather, two Turbos failed because of the weater, but no JBL's.

As a side note: Do not restart a Studer Vista connected to a Soundcraft Stage rack with a Vi6 as slave desk on the same rack. Lost 16 4886 HF drivers in the main pa that way....
Click to expand...

Wow. That just sounds overall like the kind of gig I don't want to be at, no matter the actual brands used ;)

Jason
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

Jason Misterka said:
Wow. That just sounds overall like the kind of gig I don't want to be at, no matter the actual brands used ;)

Jason
Click to expand...

It was fun but challenging. This was a opera performance with a stage in 5 different levels, 64 channels of wireless lavs for the actors and 60 inputs from the orchestra. I'll take my hat off for the guy mixing monitors, he had 24 mixes running and minimal feedback issues. He had a consistent sound even if he had 6 different speaker cabinets up and running, challenging even with different speakers from the same brand. The turbos wasn't bad, but different.
 
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