Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

Helge Dr. Bentsen said:
It was fun but challenging. This was a opera performance with a stage in 5 different levels, 64 channels of wireless lavs for the actors and 60 inputs from the orchestra. I'll take my hat off for the guy mixing monitors, he had 24 mixes running and minimal feedback issues. He had a consistent sound even if he had 6 different speaker cabinets up and running, challenging even with different speakers from the same brand. The turbos wasn't bad, but different.
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64 channels of wireles... I don't think I have enough open bandwidth around here to regularly fit half that many. Benefits of Norway, eh?

EDIT: Also... lavs?! HOLY CRAP and there was no feedback!?
 
Helge Dr. Bentsen said:
I did a gig earlier this year with a 44 box monitor system consisting of JBL VT4886, PRX, VP and Turbosound Milan M10/15. The JBL's was by far the easiest boxes to mix on and had outperformed the Turbos in volume and feedback stability. I have however never tried the Turbos as mains, so I can't comment on that. This was an outdoor stage with no roof, all speakers was outside for two weeks in all kinds of weather, two Turbos failed because of the weater, but no JBL's.

As a side note: Do not restart a Studer Vista connected to a Soundcraft Stage rack with a Vi6 as slave desk on the same rack. Lost 16 4886 HF drivers in the main pa that way....
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Leaving the VT and VP out of the mix, how much louder were the PRX and the Milans?

I wonder how much the HF patterns contribute to feedback stability in a stage monitoring application.


Sent from my iPhone
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

Thanks for all the comments, here's what I'm thinking:
  1. There are a lot of good $2-3K digital mixers out there now, but I think the most flexible and most future oriented right now is the X32. The compact is more manageable for one or two guys to haul around, while being expandable to the same capabilities of its larger brother. I don't like losing the screen and scribble strips just to get rack mounting in the Producer version, nothing else in this system now needs to be rack mounted so there is no advantage to it. The personal monitor mixing, AES50 expansion, and easy connection for computer recording are killer features in my opinion. We'll see if I was right in a few years.
  2. Everyone has their favorite mains right now, but these Presonus are mine. They get plenty loud, and sound exceptional. They are also significantly smaller and easier to haul around than the usual 12" or 15" 2 or 3 way candidates.
  3. If Evan says the JBL PRX718s-XLF is the best in the market, I think he's probably right - better to spend 40% more on a sub that actually puts out as in my experience most of that product category is underwhelming.
  4. The Yamaha monitors seem to be the real deal. They add significantly to cost versus the SRM450v2 used before, but may actually stand a chance of keeping up.
  5. Overall, speakers now represent 47% of the package cost, whereas before they were 38%. This is in line with my belief that speakers are the most important thing in the world. :twisted:
  6. All EWI prices have been updated, and cabling has been upgraded to their premium series with Neutrik ends. The drum drop also has returns on it now for monitor sends.
  7. Power section has been fleshed out much better, and almost represents a usable solution. Honestly if I were doing it I'd buy bulk cable and build my own drops, but I can't put that in this spreadsheet. As a result the price of power has tripled. If anyone has a better source for combo cables let me know, unfortunately all this stuff takes IEC which makes life difficult.
  8. I switched vocal mics from Sennheiser e835 to AKG D5 because I like them more. At $100 a mic though you can buy lots of decent stuff, so no need to fight over your favorite.

Attached is a new Q&D Bar Rig spreadsheet. In all the price has gone up about 15%, partly due to increasing prices and partly due to some new and more expensive parts. I removed a few items and slimmed down others to what I felt were more realistic quantities. I feel the overall quality of the system has significantly increased, and certainly the capabilities of the speakers themselves have improved. If I were going to get back into doing club gigs this would be the PA I would likely get.
 

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Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

For me the A&H Qu16, Soundcraft Exp and X32 would be my top 3 choices of consoles. I am not a fan of the Presonus but they are certainly proven in this market.

Personally I prefer the QSC KW over the PRX (havent heard the new 7 series tho). But either one should do just fine for bar band gigs.

Thanks for updating it :)
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

I can only offer my suggestion for a sub based on 5+ years of using them.
Nothing beats a Yorkville LS801P in terms of shear output, yeah they weigh a ton... so what.. get over it.
Any day of the week I will put the performance of that sub up against anything in it's price range and it will simply stomp them... including the JBL PRX.

I got rid of my EV QRX218s & Yorkville TX9s in favor of the LS801P.
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

Justice C. Bigler said:
Holy fuck! That thing is 185lbs! 8O~8-O~:shock:
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Sometimes you just gotta break some eggs to make REAL mayonnaise!

FWIW, my little system was pieced together with used as well as new items, passive, and total investment probably is no more expensive than the overall budget here. And it's all Danley, Crown, JTR...with some PreSonus, Bag End, EWI, roll-your-own Neutrik/Canare XLRs and Speakons, NY Case, Elation, Blizzard, like-new used Shure and Audix mics found on ebay, and other assorted odds and ends. If the X32 was available when I bought, probably would've gone for it instead. And would've considered the Orbit Shifter passive or powered if it were out...it was hard enough finding the TH115's used at the time.

2- Danley TH115 (used)
2- Danley SM80 (new)
2 - JTR triple 8's (demo)
2- Bag End TA-15 wedges (used) (can get 2 more out of storage if needed)
1 - Crown Itech 6000 (used)
1 - Crown xti4000 (used)
2 - Crown xti2000 (used)
1 - Presonus SL 16.4.2 (demo)
1 - EWI 16x8 snake (used, like new)
30 or 35 - Canare/Neutrik homemade XLR cables (new)
10 - Neutrik speakon cables (used)
15 - Shure 57/58, Sennheiser 421, Audix D6/OM5 (used)
2 - Ultimate lighting stands (used)
6 - Blizzard Q12 (new)
1 - Elation Show Designer board (used)
6 - DMX cables (new)
4 - NY Case and Gator racks and trunks (new)
Bunch of AC cords, etc - mostly new

Oh...and I found an old AT&T van in Chicago for $2500 about 4 years ago. Still running great, did put new tires on it this year. It had very low miles, I suspect it was the "van no one used" since it doesn't have A/C. And I stripped off the ladder rack and internal shelving and cabinets and got a few hundred bucks for it off ebay.
 
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Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

I have a standard "bar rig" that makes me a ton of money. It's paid for itself many times over, and has allowed me to build a second, identical rig to send out at the same time.

(2) JBL PRX635 or JBL612m for mains
(2) Harford Sound HS118HP subs (or 4 on bigger gigs)
(4) JBL PRX612m mons
(1) Yamaha 01v96 console
(1) 4 RU rack with an ADA8000, 2 DCX2496 and a power conditioner.
(1) 4RU rack with an IT4000 for sub power
(1) 20 channel main snake, with 8ch drive snake loomed in
(1) standard bar mic kit(drums, gtr, vox, DI)
(1) standard bar XLR package (drum loom, 10 10 footers, 16 25 footers)
(1) standard bar power package (3 25' quad, 3 50' quad)
(2) LED light trees when needed

The rig easily goes together with 1 guy, and is in and out in less than an hour. All I/O is handled in the FOH rack- there's a panel on the back for everything and the only connection between the console and rack is ADAT and BNC. I'm hoping to develop a powered version of my subs by next year so I can eliminate all amp racks.

Those JBL PRX boxes make me the most money- I've got over a dozen of those 612m's.



Evan
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

Do you remember the quick and dirty bar rig when it contained Yorkville speakers?

LS800p's
etc.

My rig was similar to that one at the time. I've upgraded the mixer to an SL24.4.2 since then. The whole thing is still going strong night after night!
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

If I was to build another bar rig right now it would be nothing more than an updated version of what I build for my band. X32 Compact, S16 stagebox, 2x PRX615 tops, 2x 618XLF subs, and 4 of the Alto TS112a wedges. You guys might scoff at the Altos but they're light, sound decent, and inexpensive. This rig has worked hundreds of shows and has been an excellent investment.

The PRX600's are discontinued so I would update to the PRX700. A little heavier from what I've been told, but more power and a more thoughtful rear panel.

Lastly, as much as I like to send Mark & Liz more income, I cannot see anyone buying an analog snake any longer. Sure, an S16 is $240 more expensive, and technically 8 less inputs than the EWI RPPX-24-8 150' Reel Snake, but the ease of running (and carrying) a single cat6 versus 32 pair is a no brainer. Plus, plugging in one connector at the console versus 32 XLR is a considerable time savings, well worth the extra money. If you need more than 16x8 for a particular show, you can borrow/rent or upgrade down the road.

On a side note, has anyone used any of the DUS monitors from Audiopile? Audiopile Pro Audio - Speakers
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

Do yous guys really get by with only 4 monitors 8O~8-O~:shock: ? I generally run 5-6 on four or five mixes and am adding an IEM to the system as the lead singers seem to work better with them. And I'm more "Little League" than "Junior Varsity" IMO :?~:-?~:???: - maybe things have changed since BP last worked in the bar/club scene?

If I was going with the X32 series I'd get an X32 Rack and iPad - and drop the main snake. There are just too many places where you can't run a snake or it is at least a PITA :(~:-(~:sad:. Folks hereabouts do seem to like to be sub-heavy :D~:-D~:grin: - if I was going to play that game I might go with Vinny's suggestion over four XLF's - XLF's need a hand truck or helper anyways.
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

Ron Kimball said:
Do yous guys really get by with only 4 monitors 8O~8-O~:shock: ? I generally run 5-6 on four or five mixes and am adding an IEM to the system as the lead singers seem to work better with them. And I'm more "Little League" than "Junior Varsity" IMO :?~:-?~:???: - maybe things have changed since BP last worked in the bar/club scene?

If I was going with the X32 series I'd get an X32 Rack and iPad - and drop the main snake. There are just too many places where you can't run a snake or it is at least a PITA :(~:-(~:sad:. Folks hereabouts do seem to like to be sub-heavy :D~:-D~:grin: - if I was going to play that game I might go with Vinny's suggestion over four XLF's - XLF's need a hand truck or helper anyways.
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You need a helper with the 801 as soon as you encounter stairs, or a tailgate. Not exactly what I would call sub-heavy either...
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

Ron Kimball said:
They do have 6db over an XLF so two of them should easily replace four or five XLF?
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Based on my experience comparing an 801p with a PRX618-XLF and SRX718S I'd rather cart around the SRX/PRX - or a SRX728 and be done with it. That extra output down low is important to me, hence why I currently have 4 of Art's Lab212 subs so YMMV.

Since the overall quality of the system has gone up, it makes sense (to me at least) that the more balanced sub should be the default choice, the Yorkville would maybe be listed as a good option for those that need max output at the expense of some quality and extension.
 
Ron Kimball said:
Do yous guys really get by with only 4 monitors 8O~8-O~:shock: ? I generally run 5-6 on four or five mixes and am adding an IEM to the system as the lead singers seem to work better with them. And I'm more "Little League" than "Junior Varsity" IMO :?~:-?~:???: - maybe things have changed since BP last worked in the bar/club scene?

If I was going with the X32 series I'd get an X32 Rack and iPad - and drop the main snake. There are just too many places where you can't run a snake or it is at least a PITA :(~:-(~:sad:. Folks hereabouts do seem to like to be sub-heavy :D~:-D~:grin: - if I was going to play that game I might go with Vinny's suggestion over four XLF's - XLF's need a hand truck or helper anyways.
Click to expand...

I've gotten by with just two or three monitors, I think four is enough for your average band - probably a four piece. More would be great, just like more subs and some fills and the full size X32 would be great. This is supposed to be a good start, not what's perfect for you, and I still feel the $20K price point (adjusted for inflation?) is important.

I was thinking about eliminating the snake, but I don't think it's quite there yet. Savvy consumers can make that choice, I was going to add an S16 but one didn't seem like enough and it pushed the package price up. Maybe I'll add a line about it under the mixer without a price. 150' of good rugged Cat-5e and a spool is still a few hundred bucks so the savings is not that great.

Regardless of your ability to mix on an iPad, I am not going to suggest anyone do that. Faders and knobs are important, not to mention the iPad is not a pro production piece of gear. Anyone can add an iPad to the X32, and again the cost savings once you put together an X32 Rack and an S16 is not significant.
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

I always use 4 or 5 monitors, and a centerfill.

YX15's for the bass player & drummer, YX12's for the rest.
Unity15's over LS800p's. SL24.4.2 remote mixing via iPad. Sometimes I run a snake, sometimes I don't.

2F8B3B1C-1DB5-43EF-9090-D55FA79C26B6-19404-00000C77864D3A2A.jpg


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And it all packs nicely into my 5x12 trailer, which fits into my garage, safe & sound.
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

Ron Kimball said:
Do yous guys really get by with only 4 monitors 8O~8-O~:shock: ? I generally run 5-6 on four or five mixes and am adding an IEM to the system as the lead singers seem to work better with them.
Click to expand...

We're about 50/50 providers for my own band and outside clients. With us, we use the JTR Triple 8's as crossfire monitors, drummer gets a 15" TA15 wedge, and singer on Sennheiser G3 ears. We do have a few extra TA15's if needed and sometimes use the Triple 8's as floor monitors (where they also excel) at client request. Can do 5 or 6 mixes if needed, can't think of the last time we used more than 4.
 
Re: Quick and Dirty Bar Rig 2014 Edition

Bennett Prescott said:
Thanks for all the comments, here's what I'm thinking:
  1. There are a lot of good $2-3K digital mixers out there now, but I think the most flexible and most future oriented right now is the X32. The compact is more manageable for one or two guys to haul around, while being expandable to the same capabilities of its larger brother. I don't like losing the screen and scribble strips just to get rack mounting in the Producer version, nothing else in this system now needs to be rack mounted so there is no advantage to it. The personal monitor mixing, AES50 expansion, and easy connection for computer recording are killer features in my opinion. We'll see if I was right in a few years.
  2. Everyone has their favorite mains right now, but these Presonus are mine. They get plenty loud, and sound exceptional. They are also significantly smaller and easier to haul around than the usual 12" or 15" 2 or 3 way candidates.
  3. If Evan says the JBL PRX718s-XLF is the best in the market, I think he's probably right - better to spend 40% more on a sub that actually puts out as in my experience most of that product category is underwhelming.
  4. The Yamaha monitors seem to be the real deal. They add significantly to cost versus the SRM450v2 used before, but may actually stand a chance of keeping up.
  5. Overall, speakers now represent 47% of the package cost, whereas before they were 38%. This is in line with my belief that speakers are the most important thing in the world. :twisted:
  6. All EWI prices have been updated, and cabling has been upgraded to their premium series with Neutrik ends. The drum drop also has returns on it now for monitor sends.
  7. Power section has been fleshed out much better, and almost represents a usable solution. Honestly if I were doing it I'd buy bulk cable and build my own drops, but I can't put that in this spreadsheet. As a result the price of power has tripled. If anyone has a better source for combo cables let me know, unfortunately all this stuff takes IEC which makes life difficult.
  8. I switched vocal mics from Sennheiser e835 to AKG D5 because I like them more. At $100 a mic though you can buy lots of decent stuff, so no need to fight over your favorite.

Attached is a new Q&D Bar Rig spreadsheet. In all the price has gone up about 15%, partly due to increasing prices and partly due to some new and more expensive parts. I removed a few items and slimmed down others to what I felt were more realistic quantities. I feel the overall quality of the system has significantly increased, and certainly the capabilities of the speakers themselves have improved. If I were going to get back into doing club gigs this would be the PA I would likely get.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a great rig to me. The X32 Compact is a great mixer. As you say, the loss of the scribble strips going to the producer is a really big deal to many (including me). The ability to expand the system to 32 channels with a <1K stage box is a very nice feature as you point out.

I haven't heard the Presonus speakers, but you are obviously sold on them so I am guessing they compete well with the QSC and JBL offerings in this class of 3 way speaker.

I didn't mention the DSR112's, but this is what I use with my XLF's for mains (we use IEM's so no other monitors). For mains these things put out way more punch than any of the other speakers in their class IME. I didn't suggest them simply because matching tops to subs seems so clean. If you end up getting the rig you have listed, I would be VERY interested in hearing your appraisal of how the DSR112's sound as mains compared to your 328AI's.

Bennett, I do have one note on your tops. Just be aware that the XLF's have a HPF output at 90Hz which can't be changed. I happen to like the relatively low cross-over since the DSR112's really handle the lower frequencies quite well (I also think that this frequency would work well with 15" tops for the same reason). I don't know how well those 8" drivers will do, but it is just something to be aware of on the XLF's since most subs have higher cross-overs in them than the XLF.

As for the discussion between the LS801P and the XLF, there is no doubt that the LS801P has more output than the XLF (or any other powered speaker I have heard in this price class), but to my ear, the XLF is significantly more musical.

Killer system Bennett! It should be light, great sounding, flexible, and easy to setup.
 
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