Speaking of Varsity

Re: Speaking of Varsity

Jonathan Martin said:
I gleaned a lot of great info from the LAB over the years but, sadly, it looks like it is on it's last legs.

I stopped participating there for personal reasons.

One thing that particularly bothered me about the 'old/new/old LAB' was the lack of participation by Varsity Touring Guys. Aside from 2-3 people, none of my touring friends or peers posted to the LAB. I know some of them lurked, but for whatever reason, chose not to participate. :?~:-?~:???:

I think one of the reasons was the LAB seemed to be 'provider-centric' and 'club guy-centric', no diss to them, because we all know we wouldn't have a bunch of cool audio toys to play with if someone else didn't pay for them. :lol:

My buddy Frank (Godsmack FOH) called everyone on the LAB ''protractor engineers''. Which I think was a good analogy at times.

I'd like to hear some suggestions on how we can get some more ''big dogs'' to post here and share some of the things they are doing on tour, be it rig deployment or cool mix tricks, etc..

I will hit up some of my personal friends and colleagues and let them know about this joint.
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hi jon,

i saw your link to this place on facebook... i thought it would be interesting ... frank called it with the 'protractor engineers" lol
i guess the reason why touring guys do not participate so much is they get called newbies and have their threads about mixing strategies moved to weekend warriors/hobbyists.
 
Re: Speaking of Varsity

bruce reiter said:
hi jon,

i saw your link to this place on facebook... i thought it would be interesting ... frank called it with the 'protractor engineers" lol
i guess the reason why touring guys do not participate so much is they get called newbies and have their threads about mixing strategies moved to weekend warriors/hobbyists.
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No, it's because the general level of discussion had sunk to the level of the topic you started.

(Now where did that "ignore all posts by this user" tab go?)
 
Re: Speaking of Varsity

Bruce,

The content of your post was nothing new for varsity touring folk. I moved it to the JV section because it might have been good tutelage for that crew. However, now that you've edited and removed every post you've made on these forums except those complaining about your original post being moved, nobody gets to learn anything.

Now I have to go delete your original thread, since it doesn't make sense with Evan providing the only real content three posts in and everyone replying to now empty posts.
 
Re: Speaking of Varsity

bruce reiter said:
i started a topic about mixing stratagy. how is that bad?
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It's not "bad". It's just that people in the Varsity section already know how to mix. BTW......I read your posts on the old PSW forums and didn't really find anything there that is not already general knowledge.
 
Re: Speaking of Varsity

dick,

some of us may have more or different experience mixing. even if you are a expert the basics are still important. i am sorry you find my posts uninteresting.

re:"It's not "bad". It's just that people in the Varsity section already know how to mix."
that is all the more reason discuss mixing methods and ideas. i looked through most of the threads on this forum. i could not find any topic about "mixing" a rock concert. as a touring foh mixer i for one would like to talk about what i do and hear what others who do my job do to become better.

bennett,

you are right the content of my post is what many of us touring engineers experience year after year. it is a day at the office. i thought that touring professionals such as myself might like to discuss their methods and how to do it better. how do you create a mix that stands out from all of the other bands in a positive way? part of the answer is to make sure the basics are taken care of. no loss anyways it was all just general knowledge according to dick (lol)
i guess i did not present the topic in the most clear and direct way. the next one may go better i hope:-)

best,

bruce
 
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Re: Speaking of Varsity

Hey Bruce, I'm not a touring rock engineer and I don't get to mix more than a handful of shows per year, but I was wondering if I could get your input on what you like in terms of digital matrix com systems? I'm looking at requesting probably about $150,000 at the end of the year to replace the whole com and page/program system for the whole building. What do you like better: Clearcom's Eclipse system or Riedel's Artist series.
 
Re: Speaking of Varsity

Justice C. Bigler said:
Hey Bruce, I'm not a touring rock engineer and I don't get to mix more than a handful of shows per year, but I was wondering if I could get your input on what you like in terms of digital matrix com systems? I'm looking at requesting probably about $150,000 at the end of the year to replace the whole com and page/program system for the whole building. What do you like better: Clearcom's Eclipse system or Riedel's Artist series.
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Soup cans and a string should work fine for you;-)


Is there a lack of interest in the craft of mixing concerts on this forum?
 
Re: Speaking of Varsity

Hey man, no need to get snitty.

I just figured a big time touring rock engineer like yourself would have a lot of experience and some pretty solid opinions on what works in the matrix com world. Mixing probably less than 2% of my job. The rest of my time is spent loading in and loading out shows, designing systems, installing systems, filling out forms and doing paper work to get new systems in, training users, helping other less experienced techs work through our systems. Right now my big concerns are not what fucking kick drum mic is best, or whether the third lead guitar is covering up the second lead guitar player's girlfriend's tambourine solo (actually I guess I'm fortunate that we don't do those kinds of shows here).

Once you get to a point, mixing a show is mixing a show. It's part of the job just like dealing with the vidiots that come up to you 10 minutes before the show starts and want an audio feed, or dealing with the complaints that the IR system isn't working right, or that the talent back stage can't hear the stage manager pages, or trying to explain to a new crew how to properly patch a stage set up, or keeping the stage clutter as clean as possible. There is so much more to being a full time professional sound engineer than just what the mix sounds like, and in a lot of jobs, you don't even need to be able to mix. There's a TON of guys out there making really good money who all they do is design, install and tune systems and only rarely get to mix a show. It's probably worth noting here, that if the system isn't designed and set up right, it doesn't really matter how good a mixer you are, it's going to sound like shit. Once you get a properly built and installed system, mixing is the easy part--it's really not that hard.

I could tell you all about my mixing philosophy, but I doubt it would help you in your job one bit (since I deal with orchestras and theatre). Even the guys mixing on Broadway, all they really do is mix the way the sound designer wants them to.

I guess I'll go back to playing with my protractor and see how much string and how many soup cans I need to wire up 6 separate rooms and all the ancillary production and tech areas.
 
Re: Speaking of Varsity

Hi Bruce-

One of my chief complaints, as a guy who started as a mixerperson and is now a system engineer, is that too many BEs lack fundamental understanding of mixing music. On the soon-locked FUDforums at PSW, Phil Graham had a forum sticky on "How to Mix" that he quit writing when it didn't generate responses. It seems folks would rather talk about gear or system techniques (sub woofer arrays are popular these days). Perhaps it's because mixing, per se, is a technique that depends on an individuals talents, experiences, intuition and training; i.e. it's very subjective. The written and spoken explanations of subjective listening are not especially adequate, either, but in our text-based existence we do our best, eh? Gear is about numbers and things that can usually be measured and quantified. It's that "other side of the brain" thing.

That all said, I suspect a blog (available on this site) might be a better tool than using a forum topic. You can use the forums to post pointers back to the blog, and IIRC the blogs here allow imbeded video players. That might be one way to escape the limitations of the word - present the audio. To some extent, the RecPit forums on PSW did that with project tracks. Users could download a zip file containing multi-track files for DAW and mix, edit, morp and otherwise manipulate the tracks and submit the results back for comments and evaluation. How this might be done to emulate the live performance environment I leave for others to decide.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

ps. paraphrasing Andy Peters: the most important tool a sound person can own is a large record collection...
 
Re: Speaking of Varsity

hi justice,

not getting "snitty" just talkin, getting to know the crowd ... i appreciate what you do in this business but i do think it is unfortunate that you from what i am understanding you do not appreciate the art or craft of mixing a concert (specifically a rock concert) that is fine though, we just have different interests. we do different things for a living. what i do for a living is mix front of house sound for touring rock bands. my interest in audio comes from that point of view.
i do this job for a love of music and the interaction between artist and listener and money;-).

i agree with you that a talented systems engineer is essential, i have worked with some of the best in the world.

from my experience as a front of house engineer "what the mix sounds like" is of extreme importance, it is most of my job.

i would be interested to hear about your mixing philosophy even though we mix different kinds of events.

p.s. the lead guitar players girl friends tambourine is the money channel!

p.p.s.
re com. i really do not know what would be best for your needs and did not think you were asking me a serious question.

Justice C. Bigler said:
Hey man, no need to get snitty.

I just figured a big time touring rock engineer like yourself would have a lot of experience and some pretty solid opinions on what works in the matrix com world. Mixing probably less than 2% of my job. The rest of my time is spent loading in and loading out shows, designing systems, installing systems, filling out forms and doing paper work to get new systems in, training users, helping other less experienced techs work through our systems. Right now my big concerns are not what fucking kick drum mic is best, or whether the third lead guitar is covering up the second lead guitar player's girlfriend's tambourine solo (actually I guess I'm fortunate that we don't do those kinds of shows here).

Once you get to a point, mixing a show is mixing a show. It's part of the job just like dealing with the vidiots that come up to you 10 minutes before the show starts and want an audio feed, or dealing with the complaints that the IR system isn't working right, or that the talent back stage can't hear the stage manager pages, or trying to explain to a new crew how to properly patch a stage set up, or keeping the stage clutter as clean as possible. There is so much more to being a full time professional sound engineer than just what the mix sounds like, and in a lot of jobs, you don't even need to be able to mix. There's a TON of guys out there making really good money who all they do is design, install and tune systems and only rarely get to mix a show. It's probably worth noting here, that if the system isn't designed and set up right, it doesn't really matter how good a mixer you are, it's going to sound like shit. Once you get a properly built and installed system, mixing is the easy part--it's really not that hard.

I could tell you all about my mixing philosophy, but I doubt it would help you in your job one bit (since I deal with orchestras and theatre). Even the guys mixing on Broadway, all they really do is mix the way the sound designer wants them to.

I guess I'll go back to playing with my protractor and see how much string and how many soup cans I need to wire up 6 separate rooms and all the ancillary production and tech areas.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Speaking of Varsity

Tim McCulloch said:
Hi Bruce-

One of my chief complaints, as a guy who started as a mixerperson and is now a system engineer, is that too many BEs lack fundamental understanding of mixing music.
Click to expand...
it is important to understand each instrument and how they all relate with each other and how the room relates to each instrument. this is where the subjective art comes in.



Tim McCulloch said:
On the soon-locked FUDforums at PSW, Phil Graham had a forum sticky on "How to Mix" that he quit writing when it didn't generate responses.
It seems folks would rather talk about gear or system techniques (sub woofer arrays are popular these days). Perhaps it's because mixing, per se, is a technique that depends on an individuals talents, experiences, intuition and training; i.e. it's very subjective. The written and spoken explanations of subjective listening are not especially adequate, either, but in our text-based existence we do our best, eh? Gear is about numbers and things that can usually be measured and quantified. It's that "other side of the brain" thing.
Click to expand...
i have my preferences in gear like anyone else but to me that is boring to me its what you do with the gear to make your mix better.
i guess if you are a tech it may be interesting to talk about gear and not mixing.



Tim McCulloch said:
That all said, I suspect a blog (available on this site) might be a better tool than using a forum topic. You can use the forums to post pointers back to the blog, and IIRC the blogs here allow imbeded video players. That might be one way to escape the limitations of the word - present the audio. To some extent, the RecPit forums on PSW did that with project tracks. Users could download a zip file containing multi-track files for DAW and mix, edit, morp and otherwise manipulate the tracks and submit the results back for comments and evaluation. How this might be done to emulate the live performance environment I leave for others to decide.
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good advice but i do not want to "preach" my word i want to interact and exchange ideas with others who mix rock concerts or have skills applicable to mixing a rock concert.

Tim McCulloch said:
Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
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always having fun.

Tim McCulloch said:
ps. paraphrasing Andy Peters: the most important tool a sound person can own is a large record collection...
Click to expand...
yes! listening to lots of music is important to developing mixing skills.
 
Re: Speaking of Varsity

Tim McCulloch said:
Hi Bruce-

One of my chief complaints, as a guy who started as a mixerperson and is now a system engineer, is that too many BEs lack fundamental understanding of mixing music. On the soon-locked FUDforums at PSW, Phil Graham had a forum sticky on "How to Mix" that he quit writing when it didn't generate responses. It seems folks would rather talk about gear or system techniques (sub woofer arrays are popular these days). Perhaps it's because mixing, per se, is a technique that depends on an individuals talents, experiences, intuition and training; i.e. it's very subjective. The written and spoken explanations of subjective listening are not especially adequate, either, but in our text-based existence we do our best, eh? Gear is about numbers and things that can usually be measured and quantified. It's that "other side of the brain" thing.

That all said, I suspect a blog (available on this site) might be a better tool than using a forum topic. You can use the forums to post pointers back to the blog, and IIRC the blogs here allow imbeded video players. That might be one way to escape the limitations of the word - present the audio. To some extent, the RecPit forums on PSW did that with project tracks. Users could download a zip file containing multi-track files for DAW and mix, edit, morp and otherwise manipulate the tracks and submit the results back for comments and evaluation. How this might be done to emulate the live performance environment I leave for others to decide.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

ps. paraphrasing Andy Peters: the most important tool a sound person can own is a large record collection...
Click to expand...


+100

I'll talk about my current show, because that's what I know. 24 singers, a 9-piece band, lots of multitrack playback, verb returns, and some "voodoo" channels to do some creative routing on the Profile have me at 104 inputs.

That same 9-piece band goes from hip-hop to salsa to pop to rock. Maybe a little reggaeton. How about a little mid-century latin ballad? It's all there. And if you don't know what it's supposed to sound like how can you possibly expect to get the mix right? Just last week I had a great conversation with our musical director about the musicality of my mix. Even in a room where I'm fighting an uphill battle I can help tell the story a lot just by knowing where the music needs to live. When to open it up and excite the room. When to pull it back and put people on the edge of their seats, forcing them to listen and be drawn in.

The techniques are subjective and "artsy" sometimes, for lack of a better word. But the results are palpable and very real. I always hesitate to talk about it on a forum because it starts to sound like audiophile speak. The actual mix process is a little organic and "touchy-feely". Line by line dialog mixing? Of course. But how about three fader moves within a single line to get the audience reaction you want? Perhaps. Does it really make a difference? You have to judge it for yourself. But there is real science in the tuning and deployment of the rig (or as much as there can be with the time available). That's why I always invite people out to spend an evening at the desk with me. I'm happy to show them things in real time and offer my opinions. I don't pretend to have all the answers but can at least give the reasoning behind how I put a mix together and let people form their own opinions and philosophies from there. Plus, if you've never seen the juggling act that is mixing a broadway musical, you should.
 
Re: Speaking of Varsity

Hello everyone. I want to thank John for the invitation. I would like to participate in any way possible. But first I want to relate the story of how the "protractor engineers" story got started.

I was travelling aroung the US doing festival gigs. Headline slots, radio festivals. Any one who's done these type of gigs can attest that it can get rough and lowdown some days. Even as the headliner.
I arrived at the festival in the Northwest corner of the country at 5 am. We usually load in at that hour, do a full linecheck and split. Everything on stage is cleared as a courtesy to the rest of the acts. (My guys are super cool about this, by the way.) The band never soundchecks unless something has gone horribly wrong the previous show. Cool, right? So I make my way to the FOH position and meet the system engineer. I explain that the gear least that they sent me (which I ok'd) and what is actually there and in play, are 2 different things. The response was and I quote, "well, it is what it is." That response would get me fired from my current employer. And rightfully so. I quickly realized that there was no point in getting this guy on my side. It was way too early for him, he had probably been there late last night and I was the least of his worries. I got my rig together, plugged into the PA, and did my thing. After line check the fun started.
I had seen several of the artists the night before at another radio festival. There were several exceptional mixers there and there were a few that should have been arrested for the crimes they commited against good sound. Sampled drums at obscene levels, 808's that shook the earth, and my personal favorite, the uzi into the skillet kick drums at mach 5. I explained to this guy that even though I could be fine and mix the show appropriatley, some of these fellows would try and nuke his system because that is what good sound is about, right? Not even a response. He just went back to his chair and watched as I disconnected my cables from the system drive, wrapped my stuff in plastic and left. What can I do? Whine like a jerk or just do the best I can?
I started getting the phone calls about 1:30 that afternoon. It seems that the first guy at bat managed to start the low end of the main array ablaze. This guy only managed to burn 4 cabinets worth of lows on one side. Well we can imagine what happened next, cant we? As the afternoon progressed the rest of the paper in the low end continued to snap,crackle, and burn until there was nothing left of it on either side in the main hangs. Awesome!!!!
I took a picture of the rta display and comically posted it to my facebook page. The response was amazing! The photo made it to pro sound web, AND QUICKLY GOT THE PARTY STARTED. I guess if you are used to working with perfect gear and maybe even have an "unburn the pa file stored away in one of your digital processors, you could do what I couldn't. Which is to fix a burned PA. Sorry, i don't have a tool for that in my kit. But the "protractor engineers" do and were ready willing and able to annoy the shit out of me with thier stupid replies. Not all of them on facebook or PSW mind you, I wasnt even safe from texts and Emails. Now I was quickly becoming, "the guy who burned a whole PA." I was mad enough that I wanted top punch myself in the neck. It's one thing to be a dick but I would never do that purposely to someones rig, no matter what.
I have worked as a system engineer for almost 16 years and have been involved with sound since I was a teenager. I love my job and for the most part, I consider myself the luckiest guy in the world. Not a lot of people can really do what they love for a living. I am truly lucky. And none of that fake bullshit self love Academy Award nonsense either. Most people who get to travel the world like I do have to get shot at for a living. So no matter how bad my day gets, I always try to be cool to everyone I meet. We are all in this together. My friends know that I can be rather caustic and sarcastic, but it's never meant to be meanspirited or hurtful. The protractor engineer was never meant to insult anyone. I was just angry and needed to vent. I am really sorry if I did offend anyone. Anyone who had anything to do with audio is cool with me. I will say this as well, I have meet more good system engineers. Eder Moura, Tim MucCulloch, and some others I can't remember by name but will see again this year. These guys are real pros, they know their shit and are happy to help. Thats what the job is. As a system engineer, you should know this, If you are the band's mixer, I DONT WANT YOUR JOB. But if you are being an idiot with the system, it's my job to help you get what you need if at all possible. That's the gig. We are there to help if possible, to try and teach what we know and can pass on with the certainty that it will help.

Now that my blood pressure has settled, thanks for letting me vent.

Frank Sgambellone.
 
Re: Speaking of Varsity

Hey Frank,

Thanks for joining us. I really appreciate that Jon is out telling touring guys about the new site, and that you've come to see what's up. While we've got a lot of good folks over here, we're trying hard to find ways to keep this forum from being the "same old same old". I don't know who was offended by the "protractor engineers" comment but it wasn't me, it's true to a certain extent. Most of the regular Varsity posters here aren't full time mix engineers, and while we all obviously care deeply about audio most of us spend our time paving the way for others to make the actual noise. The JV forum generates a lot more interesting questions, which we're short of in Varsity. I hope that we can provide a different community that has a blend of everything, and get back some of that "street cred". Otherwise we'll all just sit around talking to each other, which is cool, but not going to generate a whole lot of interest except for those of us who already know each other.

It's going to continue to be a slow transition, but I think we've already got a lot of momentum in the right direction.
 
Re: Speaking of Varsity

Just a peace offering to some of the early posts here. I understand what it means to have to pay off a huge note on gear. And then have to listen to wine and cheese fader jockeys moan about how it isn't this or that. And how much better it would be if He or She had thier favorite pile of lumber and magnets. I t would be great to have the guys I regularly work with here. I saw that Bruce Is here. We just did a little over a month together and it was an easy run. I will definitley be putting this across to guys I get to in the next few days. I am SE'ing a couple of sting shows at the moment. I will drop an invite to all the humheads I know who could add to the conversation.
 
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