Tell me about waves

H

harrybrilljr

Banned
Jan 12, 2011
204
0
0
Central Florida
I am getting back into mixing bands. I still do sometimes for the corpie shows but that doesn't count. Oh and I have plenty of availability so keep me in mind. Anyway I'm out of touch and need some education. I'd like to get into the waves thing. I have a Roland Octa-Capture that has for sake of argument 8 analog ins and outs, and I have a Motu 8 Pre that has 8 ADAT Optical ins and outs so I could go either way I think. I also have a Macbook Pro Retina with 16gigs of ram and dedicated graphics.

Now what? Where do I begin? How does it work? Point me in the right direction. Desks will be dujour because my main focus is filling in for other engineers without sniping the gig. I already do this for several folks on the corpie front and it works. Seems gigs come all at once or not at all so having a core group you can count on to fill without taking your gig is a good thing and we all trade off.

Thanks.
 
Re: Tell me about waves

harrybrilljr said:
I am getting back into mixing bands. I still do sometimes for the corpie shows but that doesn't count. Oh and I have plenty of availability so keep me in mind. Anyway I'm out of touch and need some education. I'd like to get into the waves thing. I have a Roland Octa-Capture that has for sake of argument 8 analog ins and outs, and I have a Motu 8 Pre that has 8 ADAT Optical ins and outs so I could go either way I think. I also have a Macbook Pro Retina with 16gigs of ram and dedicated graphics.

Now what? Where do I begin? How does it work? Point me in the right direction. Desks will be dujour because my main focus is filling in for other engineers without sniping the gig. I already do this for several folks on the corpie front and it works. Seems gigs come all at once or not at all so having a core group you can count on to fill without taking your gig is a good thing and we all trade off.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Harry,
Last year I sold some BSS comps, Drawmer Gates, SPL Transient Designer, BSS 901II and a couple of other pieces and purchased a MBPro Retina and a Waves package. I have no regrets as of yet. I also have an Octa-Capture. Anyway, I can tell you much of what you need to know to make informed decisions. There is just too much to write. I will PM you with my phone number. Take care.

JP
 
Re: Tell me about waves

Waves plugins are fantastic. The cla classics dynamics bundle is almost required for any studio session I do, and i own them to use live when I'm on a profile. The ssl channel strip and bus compressor are fantastic. API and neve stuff is sweet too. The jjp pultecs are awesome.

Heres es the thing though; waves refuses to support aax dsp. They are dumb. Any new live consoles that avid comes out with is likely to be hdx based, and all of waves software will not be available.

I would be super pissed if I was avid as well, because this is a major hangup for studios with legacy pt hd systems being upgraded to hdx.

Waves es plugs have become important to my workflow, and now have become all but useless with my preferred daw... As well as my preferred live consoles.

Waves sound grid is not the answer I'm looking for.

Quit being bitches Waves...
 
Re: Tell me about waves

Lee Williams said:
Quit being bitches Waves...
Click to expand...

Waves has kind of built their business model around being bitches. At first they wouldn't support iLok, then they did, and now they don't again (though I think I like their current model).

I upgraded to the Waves Gold bundle from my NPP for like $192 on Black Friday. Not bad for a bundle that retails for $800 normally.

I don't know much about using Waves plugins on live sound consoles. Without the Sound Grid, I think you are limited to just the Avid consoles, and as Lee said, they likely won't support the DSP version of AAX, which presents a problem for Avid's next generation of consoles. I guess you can still use them Native though? Or does that not work with the Avid Consoles?

Harry, if you are filling in for other engineers, wouldn't they already have their Waves plug-ins in use? or do you expect to have to buy your own package to carry with you?
 
Re: Tell me about waves

Justice, Stop using logic. If logic prevailed I would not own 5 Earthworks mics for a measurement rig! My number one first purchase would be the Dugan plugin. Then I'd like to be able to use the FX as well for other things. I am never on the same desk twice in a row. Tomorrow I fill in for someone for 3 days and I don't even know what gear will be there. Be nice to have this stuff in the kit I already carry and rather than request a dugan card a yamaha desk, just have tis in my kit for rental back to the client. I'm also trying to land more fill in work on the live music side. I can't go after tours until my last short person is ready for prime time and that is still 5-10 years away. If there is a desk with the artist, and the mix is there, I am inclined to go with it. I'm not there to audition for the gig. It's not my gig. In most cases the desk is dujour. I'm starting from scratch. Be nice to have FX I am familiar with. Back in the 1990s I carried my own FX rack with gates comps and DSP. This is just a simpler way to do that, if it works. One concern is latency. Mainly I'm just ignorant as to how this all works.
 
Re: Tell me about waves

At this very moment I'm trying to figure out how to use the Waves Dugan plugin with a Behringer X32. I've had a problem getting the demos of the Dugan and the Multirack, but the Waves people are being very helpful.

I'll be watching this thread closely.

Mick Berg.
 
Re: Tell me about waves

Mick Berg said:
At this very moment I'm trying to figure out how to use the Waves Dugan plugin with a Behringer X32. I've had a problem getting the demos of the Dugan and the Multirack, but the Waves people are being very helpful.

I'll be watching this thread closely.

Mick Berg.
Click to expand...

Mick,
To my knowledge you will have to use the P16 buss to get a post fader insert point. At least with V1.15 this is the case.
JP
 
Re: Tell me about waves

harrybrilljr said:
JBack in the 1990s I carried my own FX rack with gates comps and DSP. This is just a simpler way to do that, if it works. One concern is latency. Mainly I'm just ignorant as to how this all works.
Click to expand...

Harry, the latency issue using Waves Multirack is a headache. It helps you calculate the delay each plugin will incur and can delay all of your interface's outputs to match the delay of the plugin with the most latency, but when you combine plugin latency plus the latency of your ASIO or CoreAudio driver (even at 96K with low buffer settings), there is noticeable delay incurred. To deal with this you would need to implement delay on each channel of the console that was NOT routed through Multirack to account for the multirack latency, or route all of the channels NOT in multirack to a buss and apply delay to that buss (assuming your console supports this or you burn up one of your interface IO's sending an unprocessed signal as a buss insert through multirack to inherit its delay). Easier done if you don't have to worry about monitors from FOH and those latency considerations.

I gave it a try a few years ago and found that it was fine for reverbs and delays, but for things like compressors, gates, sample replacers etc there was obvious latency, and manually managing the latency was frankly a headache, even though it was doable.

I guess it depends on your application and level of tolerance. With a fast laptop and a very low latency audio interface at 96K, if you are very careful about choosing only the more basic plugins with the lowest latency (ie no linear phase, signature series, etc) you could probably arrive at something usable, and with a few gigs under your belt you might get on well with it like John P seems to be doing. More do-able IMHO for FOH applications, more a challenge if dealing with monitors.

Soundgrid / Digigrid isn't something I am interested in due to the cost, though it can work well.

Check out Waves' plugin latency chart, linked below - basically anything listed as more than 0 will likely be off your list:
Plugin Latency | Support | Waves
 
Last edited:
Re: Tell me about waves

I bought the waves multirack and hte Dugan. I tested it as much as I could using the demo. Today I had channels to burn on an LS9 so I took 8 mics to post fader insert sends to my 8 channel output card then to trs into my octa capture. From the octa capture outputs I went trs to xlr into 8 more channels which were zero'd out. This channels fed the rest of the desk as usuall. The LS9 does not allow you to use "any" input and "any" output for insert send and return, which is stupid. It only allows the slots and I think a few other options like the spdif. Otherwise I could have just kept everything in the same channels and just routed those inputs over. My understanding and please correct me if I'm wrong, is the waved SG MY card only allows 16 inserts which would be counter intuitive for Dugan alone when you can get a Dugan card for a whole lot less money than the waves rig. Remains to be seen if this Midas M32 sounds like a behringer or a Midas. That being said it's my understanding they have been rather short sighted by only allowing pre fader insert points. Even an original mackie 1604 had jumpers inside to let you switch to pre eq, post eq pre fader, and post fader inserts. The desk firmware would need to be updated before I could consider it for my shows. I'd really like to try it out and if it sounds good I will absolutely say so.

Latency is high if the settings are high. I set the sound card and waves latency to a couple of notches longer than the level where things got bad. At this latency the delay was barely noticeable with cans on speaking into the mic. Through a PA it was inconsequential.
I also used my computer for playback. I have windows and Mac running at the same time.
 
Re: Tell me about waves

So, I know I sort of made fun of the whole Waves thing earlier, but now I'm starting to think about it also, since I have a bunch of Waves plugs for my recording work.

What is the deal with using Waves plug ins live? I gather you need a Waves plugin, and the Multirack? Which is a software rack for Waves plugins...?

What kind of hardware do you need? Do you need a specific Waves i/o card for the console you are working on? Or can you go into and out of your computer via a USB or Firewire audio interface? Or via Dante Virtual Sound Card?
 
Re: Tell me about waves

I'm still trying to determine all of this. I am told Dante works and I'm eager to try it out.
The waves Multirack Native app is $500. It runs the plugins on whatever computer you have, windows or mac.
THe waves soundgrid is a rack mount windows computer that runs the multirack soundgrid application. Just about all the waves plugins cost more for the soundgrid than they do for native, no idea why. Kind of lame actually. In fact there have been several sales that do not apply to soundgrid since I started getting their emails.

However you can get the audio in and out of your computer is fine.
It's unclear of the waves card for yamaha works with Multirack native at all. I can't get a straight answer. It definitely works with the soundgrid server. Perhaps I haven't asked the right person the right question.
 
Re: Tell me about waves

harrybrilljr said:
The waves Multirack Native app is $500.
Click to expand...

Just so everyone knows, you can get a pretty deep discount on Waves (and other manufacturer's) plugins by buying through a dealer such as Waves Universe or Audio Deluxe. The Waves Multirack, for instance is $372.99 rather than $500 directly through Waves (plus you get the H-Delay and IR-L Native for a limited time). I just bought the C6 Multiband compressor. It's on sales for $89 through Waves. At Audio Deluxe it was $76.99.
 
Last edited:
Re: Tell me about waves

harrybrilljr said:
I'm still trying to determine all of this. I am told Dante works and I'm eager to try it out.
The waves Multirack Native app is $500. It runs the plugins on whatever computer you have, windows or mac.
THe waves soundgrid is a rack mount windows computer that runs the multirack soundgrid application. Just about all the waves plugins cost more for the soundgrid than they do for native, no idea why. Kind of lame actually. In fact there have been several sales that do not apply to soundgrid since I started getting their emails.

However you can get the audio in and out of your computer is fine.
It's unclear of the waves card for yamaha works with Multirack native at all. I can't get a straight answer. It definitely works with the soundgrid server. Perhaps I haven't asked the right person the right question.
Click to expand...

Waves did the same thing with the TDM versions. They had a 1 time only sale on TDM/Live bundle and that was it. After that, TDM is full price while other architectures were deeply discounted. That's when I decided that purchasing Waves plugins for my personal, live use was simply out of the question. When they quit playing bullshit games with pricing and whatever bone to pick with Avid, I might reconsider. Considering that TDM is a terminal architecture, I probably will never spend my own money on Waves and I won't purchase Soundgrid or Multirack. If it doesn't run inside the desk, it's off the table.
 
Re: Tell me about waves

harrybrilljr said:
I'm still trying to determine all of this. I am told Dante works and I'm eager to try it out.
The waves Multirack Native app is $500. It runs the plugins on whatever computer you have, windows or mac.
THe waves soundgrid is a rack mount windows computer that runs the multirack soundgrid application. Just about all the waves plugins cost more for the soundgrid than they do for native, no idea why. Kind of lame actually. In fact there have been several sales that do not apply to soundgrid since I started getting their emails.

However you can get the audio in and out of your computer is fine.
It's unclear of the waves card for yamaha works with Multirack native at all. I can't get a straight answer. It definitely works with the soundgrid server. Perhaps I haven't asked the right person the right question.
Click to expand...


Hi.
You can't use the Yamaha card with a Native setup, you always need a server. This card is simply an IO interface for Soundgrid.

With a native MR you will get more latency and less plugin count. Is fine for FOH if you use a low latency interface with a good driver and if you don't load MR too much, besides using 0 or low latency plugins. For monitors, forget about it, the latency is too much. Ok for reverbs and not much more.
Or, if you are on a madi console, you can get a RME madiface and don't do an ADDA conversion, with low latency.

With a server is another thing altogether. The server does the processing and the latency is real low, but you need an interface wich will change depending on what console you are working with. For Yamaha, the card. For madi consoles, the MGB.

I'm using MR soundgrid on monitors with an SD8 with two redundant servers and it works just perfect. Roundtrip latency (including the desk) is 4.02ms with 64 samples plugins (C6).
The only problem with this setup, is a bit expensive at the beginning, buying the server, MGB and more expensive soundgrid plugins. But for me is definitely working... And the Impact sever is not that expensive.

Oh, and most Soundgrid plugins work in Venue consoles as well.
 
Re: Tell me about waves

Carlos del Valle said:
With a native MR you will get more latency and less plugin count. Is fine for FOH if you use a low latency interface with a good driver and if you don't load MR too much, besides using 0 or low latency plugins. For monitors, forget about it, the latency is too much. Ok for reverbs and not much more.
Or, if you are on a madi console, you can get a RME madiface and don't do an ADDA conversion, with low latency.
Click to expand...

What if you use the digital i/o on the audio interface? ADAT and/or S/PDIF?
 
Re: Tell me about waves

harrybrilljr said:
I'm still trying to determine all of this. I am told Dante works and I'm eager to try it out.
The waves Multirack Native app is $500. It runs the plugins on whatever computer you have, windows or mac.
THe waves soundgrid is a rack mount windows computer that runs the multirack soundgrid application. Just about all the waves plugins cost more for the soundgrid than they do for native, no idea why. Kind of lame actually. In fact there have been several sales that do not apply to soundgrid since I started getting their emails.

However you can get the audio in and out of your computer is fine.
It's unclear of the waves card for yamaha works with Multirack native at all. I can't get a straight answer. It definitely works with the soundgrid server. Perhaps I haven't asked the right person the right question.
Click to expand...

If you're doing a throw-n-go, how long does it take to integrate your Waves into the system?
 
Re: Tell me about waves

Problem is the server runs on windows and I will never buy windows again.

I see no real reason if I stay digital why the latency would be higher on my mac. Also my mac is likely faster than the server going by the price and the likely markup. I used the dugan using the octacapture, so I had D/A - A/D - D/A - A/D and it still wasn't bad at all in a very small room. Also had the A/D and D/A of the desk mic pre, to matrix out. I do not know what kind of latency is added by other plugs though. I think the mac can run them as fast as a windows machine. Granted this is a very fast mac. No moving parts.

Carlos del Valle said:
Hi.
You can't use the Yamaha card with a Native setup, you always need a server. This card is simply an IO interface for Soundgrid.

With a native MR you will get more latency and less plugin count. Is fine for FOH if you use a low latency interface with a good driver and if you don't load MR too much, besides using 0 or low latency plugins. For monitors, forget about it, the latency is too much. Ok for reverbs and not much more.
Or, if you are on a madi console, you can get a RME madiface and don't do an ADDA conversion, with low latency.

With a server is another thing altogether. The server does the processing and the latency is real low, but you need an interface wich will change depending on what console you are working with. For Yamaha, the card. For madi consoles, the MGB.

I'm using MR soundgrid on monitors with an SD8 with two redundant servers and it works just perfect. Roundtrip latency (including the desk) is 4.02ms with 64 samples plugins (C6).
The only problem with this setup, is a bit expensive at the beginning, buying the server, MGB and more expensive soundgrid plugins. But for me is definitely working... And the Impact sever is not that expensive.

Oh, and most Soundgrid plugins work in Venue consoles as well.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Tell me about waves

So, here's my take on this:

The key advantage for plugin systems (be they waves, or otherwise) is that you have a whole lot more flexibility than hardware based systems because you can change up your system for different shows.

The big disadvantage is that they are a piece of equipment that has zero resale value. If I buy $5k worth of Waves kit today, its worth basically nothing within a very short space of time. Good quality hardware will always have resale value - especially the more esoteric analog stuff.

What you have to ask yourself is what do you actually NEED? I used to be a crazy user of plugins, but the more I mixed, the more I whittled down my outboard and focused on the results. In the end, I focused on plugins that either did something that wasn't otherwise available on the console (Waves C6, Vocal Rider, etc...) or got me there quicker (Like the Pultec EQP-1A).

That said, all the plugins in the world are no substitute for great sounding instruments/backline and good mic selection...
 
Top Bottom