Tell me about waves

Re: Tell me about waves

On a console such as the Presonus Studio Live, you connect your Mac via Firewire, and you have the ability to control the console via iPad, record multitrack, and use your Wave plugins (via Waves Live). Whether one can do all that at once I do not know. And Live is bloody expensive.
 
Re: Tell me about waves

I have figured out how to do this and there is little to no documentation so if anyone is really serious about it (iow you have the cash in hand and want to make it happen) like I was, let me know and I'll help with more info. I spent a lot of money that didn't need to be spent due to misinformation give to me here and by Yamaha tech support. BTW Latency is NOT an issue at all.
 
Re: Tell me about waves

Jeremy Johnston said:
I'd like to know more about this for the same reasons you did...

Jeremy


Sent from my iPad HD
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This became largely moot as of this morning. For the cost of a mid grade mac laptop you can purchase an upper level soundgrid machine and the plugins no longer cost more.

Sound Productions for best price on hardware, and Waves Universe for best plugin prices. Tell em I sent you.

You may even want to buy now, and buy native because when Waves says all native and soundgrid pricing will be unified in March, that could mean native is going up as well as soundgrid going down.
 
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Re: Tell me about waves

This is the announcement that Harry is talking about.

The Waves Platinum Bundle is on sale this month. You can get it at Waves Universe for less than $500. Then on Mach 1 it will automatically be converted to Soundgrid. Then prices for their products will be going up after March 1st, so now is a good time to buy in at the Platinum Bundle level as that is currently a $1,600 bundle.
 
Re: Tell me about waves

Justice C. Bigler said:
This is the announcement that Harry is talking about.

The Waves Platinum Bundle is on sale this month. You can get it at Waves Universe for less than $500. Then on Mach 1 it will automatically be converted to Soundgrid. Then prices for their products will be going up after March 1st, so now is a good time to buy in at the Platinum Bundle level as that is currently a $1,600 bundle.
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Going up in price or just returning to their non-sale price? This was one thing I was unsure about the whole Native/Soundgrid merge. While Waves is saying the Soundgrid plugins will be less expensive, I'm afraid the standard native price (sale or otherwise) will be more expensive.
 
Re: Tell me about waves

Josh Voyles said:
While Waves is saying the Soundgrid plugins will be less expensive, I'm afraid the standard native price (sale or otherwise) will be more expensive.
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This. I emailed Waves sales support and they indicated the prices of some products will increase from their current Native pricing. But they didn't elaborate on how much, or which ones. I'm guessing that the prices will increase to some kind of middle ground between Native and SoundGrid, and that the individual plugins will go up more than their bundles.

We'll just have to wait and see. I was planning on upgrading from Platinum to Diamond as I expect Diamond to be on sale next month. Hopefully it won't increase to a price that is out of my range.
 
Re: Tell me about waves

Yeah, I kind of figured. But it's not a huge deal. I actually spent about 2k over the holidays on Waves native plugins with the plan of upgrading to Soundgrid end of 2015 or when they ran a big sale. Now, it seems like I have all the (Soundgrid) plugins I need for live. I also picked up a few plugins I had previous been waiting for the Soundgrid version to go on sale. On that note, the Abbey Road Collection is on sale at Sweetwater for $299. I've used the ADT and J37 on a jazz project I'm working on and it was really the icing on the cake.
 
Re: Tell me about waves

I've done comparisons. I don't have any hard numbers for latency, but Mac wins hands down. I use Waves native multirack for live audio. With a 28 slot waves rack, and using either my soundcraft Expression console via usb or firewire, or one of my M-Audio devices (Lightbridge and 2626) via firewire, a 2009 2.0 duo core mac mini runs at around 47% load. A newer i7 MacBook pro runs at 17% load. My best and newest windows i3 machine (optimized for audio) runs at around 70% load. I can get a lower buffer setting with mac as well, 64 for the mini and 32 for the pro. Windows won't effectively run lower than 190.
 
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Re: Tell me about waves

Leaving aside stuff like AutoTune I've really found that a well thought out dedicated DSP box like the Metric Halo provides all the control I need and much more importantly provides the piece of mind that i need if I'm going to be inserting it into a signal path. Yea, the graphics aren't as slick but then the dedicated hardware boxes crash somewhat less often than general purpose computers.
 
Re: Tell me about waves

Gil Navarro said:
I've done comparisons. I don't have any hard numbers for latency, but Mac wins hands down. I use Waves native multirack for live audio. With a 28 slot waves rack, and using either my soundcraft Expression console via usb or firewire, or one of my M-Audio devices (Lightbridge and 2626) via firewire, a 2009 2.0 duo core mac mini runs at around 47% load. A newer i7 MacBook pro runs at 17% load. My best and newest windows i3 machine (optimized for audio) runs at around 70% load. I can get a lower buffer setting with mac as well, 64 for the mini and 32 for the pro. Windows won't effectively run lower than 190.
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Really? Your Windows PC with an i3 CPU won't run your multirack sessions at the same latency as your quad core i7 MBP?

I mean, you realize that the i3 is NOT a high end CPU right, and that the i7 actually is? It's not surprising that it won't run the same low latency buffer settings as your high end, high dollar Apple MacBooks. In fact, I'm surprised that you are able to use that (at most) dual core i3 CPU for ANYthing other than playing Solitaire and surfing the web. Those latency reports really have absolutely nothing to do with the actual operating system and everything to do with the hardware in the box. I don't consider any platform with an i3 CPU to be optimized in any sense of the word for audio, since it doesn't have the horsepower to do what it needs to in the first place.

Additionally, the Waves SoundGrid platform is a dedicated DSP system built on a PC chassis and which runs on Linux. All of the input and output for the system runs on Ethernet, which works equally well on all three major operating systems.
 
Re: Tell me about waves

Justice C. Bigler said:
I mean, you realize that the i3 is NOT a high end CPU right, and that the i7 actually is?
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Lol, yes of course I realize that. I also realize that the brand new i3 duo core is way faster than the 2009 2.0 duo core in the mac mini, but the mini out performs the i3 machine. It must have something to do with the drivers. I think mac is just way more efficient with audio.
I was just listing my findings in the event that others may find it useful. For me, I'll be doing all of my waves native audio on Mac. Hopefully soon I'll be able to get a Soundgrid Server, although I don't think it works with the Soundcraft Expression.
 
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Re: Tell me about waves

Soundgrid servers are only going to work with soundgrid hardware and soundgrid licenses.

Multirack native also works with soundgrid hardware and native licenses, but the latency is higher. The OS overhead is understandably lower on the soundgrid server which runs a purpose optimized unix. Soundgrid hardware shows up on your computer as a core audio device (mac). You can simply select it in multitrack native as your IO but you must be running one of the drivers. If you close out the driver, it goes away. They have a few that will do the job, and if you buy a piece of hardware one of them will show up in your licenses. You could also use it to record into a DAW or playback.

If you have the space in your rack you only need an old not so great computer with an ethernet port to control the server and network settings, an Impact server (cheap) or better (the compact doesn't let you do much), a switch (cheap) and SG hardware to get the audio from and to the console (most expensive part other than the plugins). Digico has the control computer and the SG hardware built in as far as I can tell. The server is all you need with them.
Yamaha requires the use of the card slots. You can have up to 4 in the PM5D, and less in everything else. Each slot gives you 16 ins and outs into the soundgrid network. I believe there is a card for A&H and Soundcraft, and there is a card for Digidesign venue too. I have no idea what the channel counts are. There is an MGB and MGO which are madi to SG convertor boxes that run about $2000. They handle 2 madi universes for a total of 128 channels each way, but I think you are limited to 64 for multirack. You can probably run a second server to get another 64 though and on the same network too.

There are also ways to run all of this redundantly but I'm not sure how all that is implemented. I do know you need a sep license for the backup, so that would be 2 licenses for every SG plugin you use. This seems well suited for the SD7 which also has 2 mix engines for redundancy. In fact they have a plugin bundle called SD7 Proshow which is 2 licenses for every plugin and it's nearly twice the price of the Proshow bundle.

Let me warn you, if you get into this you may develop GAS, especially during a sale, don't ask me how I know.

Must have corpie plugins in no particular order.
Dugan
WNS or NS1 or both
H-EQ
GEQ
Lo AIR
Vocal Rider for video playback
C6 or C4
De-esser or R De-esser
API2500 makes a great comp for the record feed

For band mixing I would say...
CLA76
dbx160 (allows parallel compression without using up channels)
C1 Gate and comp and it gets weird too?? I may have to get the manual for this one
C6 or C4
H-EQ
SSL channel (may be redundant with the H-EQ but it has the gate and comp and it's really easy to get a good sound)
IR Live Reverb that uses convolution. Waves has a ton of files for download and a bunch more if you ask the right person
H Delay
H Comp (allows parallel compression without using up channels)
Bass Rider
API 2500 for the records
LoAir
Mondo Mod and Enigma are both fun

You really don't need many, you just need the right few. Many of the plugins overlap and do the same thing. R Bass is practically the same as MaxxBass.

Would someone explain the Renascence and H series designations?
 
Re: Tell me about waves

Harry Brill Jr. said:
Let me warn you, if you get into this you may develop GAS, especially during a sale, don't ask me how I know.
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Oh, I know exactly how it happens. :twisted:

I have Platinum, C6, Kramer: Master Tape, Vocal and Guitar channels, NLS, IR-1, and the StudioRack plugins (which I got free). Looking to upgrade to Diamond soon.

One thing I have been unclear of, and I don't know if you know the answer to this or not, Harry...Is it possible to use the same SoundGrid hardware for studio work and live work? Or do you need a different version of the SG hardware/server etc...?

Right now, all of my usage of Waves plugins is as plugins for Protools. But if I can use them as live sound plugins with the same hardware i/o and DSP server, then that would make it that much more appealing to get into the SG hard ware.
 
Re: Tell me about waves

Hello Harry, I may be able to correct a few little errors in your post since I am a frequent Digico +Soundgrid user, and intermitently Venue as well:



Digico has the control computer and the SG hardware built in as far as I can tell. The server is all you need with them.
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This is correct, but there is no SG hardware built in. The processing is done by the motherboard and SPFGA chips on the desk, and in all SD series consoles you can add a Waves card (each console has a different one) wich the console will see as additional io.

I believe there is a card for A&H and Soundcraft, and there is a card for Digidesign venue too. I have no idea what the channel counts are.
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A&H, Soundcraft, Presonus, Mackie, Behringer and Midas all can interface with a MR native/SG via either propietary cards or the built in firewire or usb ports. However, there is no Soundgrid or waves card for Venue consoles. V9.1 Plugins will work with those, but not the very new ones (vitamin, abbey road, etc).


There is an MGB and MGO which are madi to SG convertor boxes that run about $2000. They handle 2 madi universes for a total of 128 channels each way, but I think you are limited to 64 for multirack. You can probably run a second server to get another 64 though and on the same network too.
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I believe there is no limit to the number of racks you can set up in your session. The limit is given by the hardware you are processing them, ie computer in MR native or wich server you use in MR soundgrid. If you add another server to the network, it will become redundant server. You cannot allocate different plugins on different servers. You can, however, route differnt inputs on both madi streams to Multirack or recording/playback computers. This is very flexible.

There are also ways to run all of this redundantly but I'm not sure how all that is implemented. I do know you need a sep license for the backup, so that would be 2 licenses for every SG plugin you use. This seems well suited for the SD7 which also has 2 mix engines for redundancy. In fact they have a plugin bundle called SD7 Proshow which is 2 licenses for every plugin and it's nearly twice the price of the Proshow bundle.
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Redundancy on almost every console is very easy implemented and you don't need double licenses. You simply add another server to the network and give it another ID and the system will reconize it as redundant. On the SD7 you do need double servers and double licenses, although I'm not sure that you do have to pay twice. The few times I've used the SD7 with waves I had only one engine running, thus only one server/license.

For example, I use on tour a SD8 with double Impact servers and have 23 racks and about 40 plugins on a 56 channel input list, and the performance meter on the servers gets only to 60%.

Hope this helps...
 
Re: Tell me about waves

Carlos del Valle said:
This is correct, but there is no SG hardware built in. The processing is done by the motherboard and SPFGA chips on the desk, and in all SD series consoles you can add a Waves card (each console has a different one) wich the console will see as additional io.

A&H, Soundcraft, Presonus, Mackie, Behringer and Midas all can interface with a MR native/SG via either propietary cards or the built in firewire or usb ports. However, there is no Soundgrid or waves card for Venue consoles. V9.1 Plugins will work with those, but not the very new ones (vitamin, abbey road, etc).

I believe there is no limit to the number of racks you can set up in your session. The limit is given by the hardware you are processing them, ie computer in MR native or wich server you use in MR soundgrid. If you add another server to the network, it will become redundant server. You cannot allocate different plugins on different servers. You can, however, route differnt inputs on both madi streams to Multirack or recording/playback computers. This is very flexible.
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i'm not sure where you are going with "the processing is done by the motherboard and SPFGA chips on the desk" Waves doesn't do any of its processing in the desk. Only the onboard winblows computer is controlling the waves system but not processing it. Good to know a sep card is still necessary.

All those other desks are using native as you said. You could do that with any interface which is what those desks are, but you can't use SG servers with them.
The digidesign stuff as far as I can tell is being phased out and will have to go to soundgrid unless they allow them to use native plugs onboard the system computer. Waves no longer supports the avid hardware.

My limit is based on numerous videos that state "up to 64 racks" and the fact that my dugan plug in tops out at 64 racks. You may be right.

I take it you have not used the eMotionST mixer or soundgrid studio, the patch and inventory system, just MRSG? It appears to me that if I connect 2 servers, I can patch the hardware to the servers any way I want.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ob69nqzudu4jd9q/Screenshot 2015-02-27 10.34.55.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dqrv1mjxmavetet/Screenshot 2015-02-27 10.36.03.png?dl=0
But I could be wrong. Using the MRSG app alone this capability is missing.

Justice, yes same hardware for studio and live.
 
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