Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

How do you think we ended up with all this advanced technology, for a fraction of the cost even a few years ago. Don't tell me the government did it.

Wasn't it NASA that drove the effort to shrink radios and other electronics? Before the space program, radios and other electronics were basically furniture and no one really cared about making them fit into a package that was 1/4 the size and 1/10th the weight. And I'm pretty sure that they were using some form of matrix coms long before Broadway and the big Production shows in Lss Vegas did.
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Wasn't it NASA that drove the effort to shrink radios and other electronics? Before the space program, radios and other electronics were basically furniture and no one really cared about making them fit into a package that was 1/4 the size and 1/10th the weight. And I'm pretty sure that they were using some form of matrix coms long before Broadway and the big Production shows in Lss Vegas did.
How do you think we ended up with all this advanced technology, for a fraction of the cost even a few years ago.

Not to quibble or demur, but I did say "cost".

Yes, Military and space development pioneered packaging miniaturization and some innovation (IIRC velco was a space program invention). NASA publishes (published?) a journal with all their patents that they wanted to license (I was not very impressed, but I'm sure there's some jewels in there among the chaff). You and I could never afford what that stuff costs the way NASA or the military contractors built it. Without a consumer mass market to drive costs down we wouldn't have cell phones with more computer power than an old IBM mainframe.

During the cold war space race the Soviets spent almost as money as we did, (before they ran out). I don't recall too many (any) world changing innovations coming from their space/military programs. Maybe bigger rockets to lift heavier payloads and tube avionics. Note: I've known a few really smart Soviet engineers, but their economic system did not reward innovation as much as our free markets. Wait untill China really catches fire, The last 10-15 years there have seen remarkable growth. Last time I was there they were happy to have a bicycle, now its cars everywhere.

Speaking about miniaturization, the transistor and solid state electronics were the magic bullet that facilitated putting a room sized computer into a file cabinet sized package, and now a cell phone or wristwatch. AFAIK the transistor invention was based on primary research work done at Bell labs, which was funded by AT&T (the phone company) before the government broke them up years ago.

While this may not be a popular position these days, IMO private industry and good old profit margin is the most powerful driver of innovation, while I understand there is another theory being floated. :-(

JR
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

During the cold war space race the Soviets spent almost as money as we did, (before they ran out).
JR

I love the story of the NASA space pen. You know the pressurized pen that will write at any angle as well as in wheightless conditions. Apparantly it cost ridiculous amounts to develop.




The Russians gave their cosmonauts pencils...
 
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Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

I love the story of the NASA space pen. You know the pressurized pen that will write at any angle as well as in wheightless conditions. Apparantly it cost ridiculous amounts to develop.




The Russians gave their cosmonauts pencils...
That is an amusing story, with emphasis on "story".
snopes.com: NASA Space Pen

I just love the WWW so much information, so easy to find.

There are so many examples of stupid spending, especially in these times when we should be frugal, no need to reach for examples. One of my pet peeves is the huge military spending experimenting on alternative fuels for warships and aircraft. We are not close to running out of fossil fuel, and long before the world does, viable alternatives will be developed by the market economy, because at that future time, it will be very profitable to do so. Now it is an expensive luxury our military budget should not be burdened with, while we are borrowing money to pay our bills.

JR

PS: I apologize for adding to the veer
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

JR...

A straight forward cause and effect view of business that is lost on many. The recent accounts of Behringer spending the millions they did on innovation and manufacturing ability should be a commonly discussed model. Sadly, now many I know are convinced workers needing jobs is what drives investors to invest in businesses. I don't even know how to carry on a discussion with that premise.
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

JR...

A straight forward cause and effect view of business that is lost on many. The recent accounts of Behringer spending the millions they did on innovation and manufacturing ability should be a commonly discussed model. Sadly, now many I know are convinced workers needing jobs is what drives investors to invest in businesses. I don't even know how to carry on a discussion with that premise.

Workers having jobs, so they have a income to spend on goods and services are what makes for more business investment. Without customers there is no need for businesses. It continues to amaze me that folks think that commerce can happen without demand for goods and services.
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

JR...

A straight forward cause and effect view of business that is lost on many. The recent accounts of Behringer spending the millions they did on innovation and manufacturing ability should be a commonly discussed model. Sadly, now many I know are convinced workers needing jobs is what drives investors to invest in businesses. I don't even know how to carry on a discussion with that premise.

Yup, it's funny how the cause and effect gets a little scrambled up, especially in the silly season.

I don't want to diminish the story, but if your competitive advantage is based on vertical integration and being a low cost manufacturer, you have to pay the piper from time to time to upgrade your assembly equipment as the technology marches onward and finer pitch, bga support, etc.

The x32 development seems a different front, and while several have stumbled with digital console offerings, nobody has failed to sell because they were too cheap. About the only thing that can crash the program now is if the cost accounting was wrong, but even that can be adjusted.

JR
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Workers having jobs, so they have a income to spend on goods and services are what makes for more business investment. Without customers there is no need for businesses. It continues to amaze me that folks think that commerce can happen without demand for goods and services.

Supply and demand are related, as in demand will drive supply. More demand than supply will cause increased prices and those higher prices will attract new investment to make more supply.Too little demand will cause prices to drop, and repel investment to pursue other more profitable ventures. Jobs a re just a side effect of commerce, but as industries mature, workers get engineered out, so job creation is stronger in new industries.

Sustained demand is not something that you can create with short term artificial support. As expected the short term government stimulus ran it's course and now a few years later we're back to life without the stimulus tail wind, but an increased public debt to pay back. Priming the pump only helps get the pump started, it can't put water in the well that isn't there.

Business investment is motivated by the promise of profit or return on that investment. Uli invested in his factory and X32 development program, because he expects to get even more money back in profit (he will).

Capitalism creates new wealth by taking raw materials (like the components that Uli buys), and makes them worth more to the market, by configuring them into a digital console that customers are willing to pay even more for than the parts cost. That difference is "wealth" that Uli created, from thin air. The customers are happy, because they get a product that delivers good value for the money. That is the win-win of capitalism at it's best. The customer gets good value for his money, and Uli gets a nice return on his investment.

Yes Uli is creating wealth for himself, but a positive side effect of that pursuit of profit is that he pays many employees to help him create that added value, that his customers pay even more for. So these employees literally share in the wealth that he created.

If we want more jobs we need to get out of the way of businessmen so they can do what they do naturally, invest in profitable enterprises. Right now business is paralyzed by uncertainty about future costs and regulations, so the last thing they are going to do is make risky investments in the near future.

I predict one way or the other, for better or worse, we will have more certainty about the near future after just a few more weeks, and those left standing will address the most pressing legislative issues.

Of course I could be wrong...

JR


[edit- for an interesting example of what can happen when the government planners put their thumb on the scale and mess with true market demand, look at the solar electricity panel industry. For years that market demand was inflated by tax breaks and other government incentives, in Europe and US. While the western politicians pontificated about how they were creating "green" jobs and investing in the future, China responded to the apparent demand that looked real enough to them and invested into expanding manufacturing capacity. Europe ran out of money to maintain the high levels of subsidies so tapered them off, reducing the artificial demand. Simple supply and demand then causes prices to fall as there was too much capacity for the real demand. The price dropped so much that many western makers went out of business first, but even the Chinese are losing money these days. Right now the Chinese solar industry is limping along on government backed bank loans but that can't go on forever.

The chicken/egg thing with solar power is getting the cost low enough to be competitive and create manufacturing economy of scale. If the cost was low and the volume high enough it "should" be able to sustain itself. This could happen in several ways, either innovation and research figures out how to make them a lot cheaper, or the cost of electricity rises so high that they become viable in comparison. Unfortunately recent developments in the energy patch have thwarted getting the electricity prices high enough for the solar industry to prosper unaided. Even after pretty much shutting down any new coal fired electricity generation, and almost stopping nuclear development, they didn't count on the discovery of so much natural gas (on private land so harder to interfere with). Note: California has mandated that a fraction of electricity purchased there be from renewable sources, creating more false demand. The consumer pays with higher electricity bills.

My crystal ball shows solar electricity generation being useful in the future, just not quite yet. I think Pres Carter put solar collectors on the WH roof (hot water). Pres Reagan removed them. Both events were just politics, so solar is back up there in 2010, yawn. Solar hot water can be cost effective, solar electric someday but I don't know when. [/edit]
 
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Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Can you please move the XLR inputs to the back of the box please?


New ADA8200

Dear all,

in earlier posts some of you commented on the ADA8000 and suggested improvements. We are truly grateful for those suggestions and today we're excited to announce a vastly improved version of the ADA8000. It's the ULTRAGAIN DIGITAL ADA8200. I have also communicated with Bob Lentini from SAC and received his feedback for which I personally thank him.

Here are some of the improvements:

- The linear PSU has been replaced by a universal auto-range SMPSU. The heat issues are resolved
- A high-end Midas-designed preamp has been implemented on all 8 channels
- The detent VR's were replaced by non-detent types. They also feature much better linearity at high-gain settings
- High-quality Cirrus AD/DA converters have been designed in
- The TL072 op-amps were all replaced by NJM4580 for better audio performance

The unit should be in stores by end of year.


View attachment 4491

Again, thank you for all your valuable feedback.

Warm regards

Uli
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

No idea if Uli is still reading this or not... but I wanted to share my most recent experience. Unable to wait for the ADA8200, I've just bought three ADA8000 units, two brand new and one B-stock from Thomann in Germany (I'm in the UK). All three are faulty and will not clock externally. One just pops occasionally, the second crackles a bit more, the third (the B-stock) sounds like frying eggs. What's really weird is they will not clock to MOTU, RME or Focusrite equipment on adat or wordclock. But they will clock to each other perfectly well, even with two mis-matched master clocks, which shouldn't work at all.

It's this experience, that sadly isn't all that uncommon, that means I have to keep away from the Behringer brand.

I get the sense that Uli is trying to build something lasting and is genuine about wanting the Behringer brand to stand for something. Sadly right now it remains a brand tainted with unreliability for me. These faulty units will be returned to Thomann for a refund and I'll be replacing them with a different brand.

This also leaves me looking at the DCX2496 in my system and wondering "how long before that goes bang".

As long as this question hangs over the quality and reliability of Behringer equipment it will never be taken seriously outside the hobby studio and weekend warrior live sound market. That's clearly ok to build a successful company. But I'm not sure it's what Uli really wants.
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

No idea if Uli is still reading this or not... but I wanted to share my most recent experience. Unable to wait for the ADA8200, I've just bought three ADA8000 units, two brand new and one B-stock from Thomann in Germany (I'm in the UK). All three are faulty and will not clock externally. One just pops occasionally, the second crackles a bit more, the third (the B-stock) sounds like frying eggs. What's really weird is they will not clock to MOTU, RME or Focusrite equipment on adat or wordclock. But they will clock to each other perfectly well, even with two mis-matched master clocks, which shouldn't work at all.

It's this experience, that sadly isn't all that uncommon, that means I have to keep away from the Behringer brand.

I get the sense that Uli is trying to build something lasting and is genuine about wanting the Behringer brand to stand for something. Sadly right now it remains a brand tainted with unreliability for me. These faulty units will be returned to Thomann for a refund and I'll be replacing them with a different brand.

This also leaves me looking at the DCX2496 in my system and wondering "how long before that goes bang".

As long as this question hangs over the quality and reliability of Behringer equipment it will never be taken seriously outside the hobby studio and weekend warrior live sound market. That's clearly ok to build a successful company. But I'm not sure it's what Uli really wants.

i know you've already returned these units. and since they were faulty out of the box, that's what i would do as well. still, i had to share this since it just happened last week.

i've got about 10 ADA8000's in use at the church where i work. Over time i've had several go south with very similar symptoms to the ones you've described. frankly, given that they never get turned off and have been on the job for years in a building with notoriously flakey power, i've just swapped them out with other units i've gotten off of FleaBay and not given it much thought. compared to 10 units of ANY comparable product, i'm still way ahead of the curve financially.

anyway, i have a new volunteer with a good deal of electronics experience who saw my 'broken' units on the and volunteered to take a look at them. long story short, he took three units home with 'clocking' issues' and found bad power supply capacitors in all three. He replaced them with 35v capacitors [they had been 25v] and we've put them back in service. i've got two more units that function fine but have non-functional input meters. he's getting those next. :)

again, i know that doesn't solve your issue. just wanted to share for anyone else who might be interested.

and FWIW, i've been using a DCX2496 for a LONG time with absolutely no issues. i hope your experience is the same...
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

I have many DCX 2496's in service for many years. Not one problem.
here's hoping ;)

Power supply issues with out of spec capacitors are a good place to start looking when you have old kit that isn't behaving. My electronics knowledge is laughably basic but I've fixed a few problem power supplies.


I don't think this is a power issue. The units are new and unlikely to have failing caps. It's very much a clock problem. Apparently there's a possible fault with the wavefront Adat chip used in the ada. Some people far cleverer than me are looking into it.
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Dear Matt,

thank you for your comment and sorry for the trouble you are going through.

Since this issue was mentioned earlier, we have been investigating this matter for some time.

The Adat clock is managed by the Alesis/Wavefront chips AL1401/1402 which are used in the ADA8000. There seems to be an incompatibility with certain 3rd party products in particular with Motu devices.

We are currently in touch with Alesis/Wavefront as interestingly, we have found functional differences between the previous Alesis chips and the newer Wavefront versions, but at this stage we don't know if the problems are caused by the Alesis/Wavefront chips or on Motu's side.

Unfortunately this problem is out of our hand as it is an Adat incompatibility issue. I will ask one of our engineers to explain the matter in detail and also keep you posted on any progress.

We are also aware of a potential issue relating to the power supply of the ADA8000. The challenge is the high power consumption and the corresponding heat the unit creates. For that reason, we recommend to provide for sufficiant air flow when operating the ADA8000 in a rack. While all components are running perfectly within specs, we have upgraded critical capacitors from 85 to 105 degree versions.

Like the DCX2496, DEQ2496 etc. the new ADA8200 will now incorporate an auto-range switch-mode power supply which will resolve the heat issue.

Uli
 
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Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Very high internal operating temperatures can lead to premature loss of electrolyte in reservoir capacitors. 105'C rated caps will help. While a minor quibble, the original ones were probably 85'C. I don't think I've ever seen 80'C caps? 105'C units are routinely specified for power amplifiers to help preserve their vital fluids.

Elevated operating temp may cause subtle effects on LSI too. If logic timing was marginal at nominal temperatures, heat could nudge it out of it's sweet time window. I have seen early DSP/CODEC chip sets that misbehaved in similar circumstances when a number of hot running units were stacked on top of each other in a tight rack causing higher than expected internal temps in use. While the ICs are probably specified to work up to even higher temps, the internal device characteristics can change subtly.

The unfortunate reality is the customers do not care who made the internal component that may be causing the misbehavior, they only see your name on the box.

Good luck, sounds like you have a plan.

JR
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Apparantly it cost ridiculous amounts to develop.

Whether or not it did, it was all private money. The factory is still in my home town, in fact. I used to provide computer support to Mr. Fisher before he passed. Truly a smart, passionate and very kind man. I still like to carry a bullet pin - especially with formal/dress clothes - due to it's very compact size and excellent feel. It's a classic design that unfortunately never seemed to catch on.

I'll never forget when I was younger touring the factory with my scout troop. A friend asked the person giving the tour if it really did write under water, so the tour guide grabbed a piece of paper, put it in the dog water bowl belonging to one of the pets an employee had in the office and wrote underwater with it. The dog was not amused :lol: I'll never forget that...
 
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Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Without customers there is no need for businesses. It continues to amaze me that folks think that commerce can happen without demand for goods and services.

And without jobs for them to earn the money to spend there is no demand. Both are EQUALLY important and must portioned (not balanced!) correctly.

Sigh - this isn't aimed at Tim, but I'm just tired of the demonization and polarization of all subjects these days. There are some things government is essential for and there are many things that private business is essential for. Neither is inherently evil. They are just constructs. It's the people behind them that often gets lost in these discussions (these days especially with government which many seem to think of as some magical and amorphous entity that can do no wrong and inherently farts puppies and unicorn tears - but I digress...)
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

My ADAA8000 has just succumbed to the power supply fault by the look of it.
I am reluctant to repair it and then rely on it, especially since it will be on my $, I presume. (Date code on the back is 1011)

So.... it is pretty much the end of the year and no sign of any ADA8200. What gives? Anyone know anything?
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

The issue I experienced with three new ada8000 units is the problem. The wavefront adat chip is bad and I believe the ada8200 would use the same chip. Nobody else makes a compatible chip. Until this supply problem is fixed or the board redesigned to use something different they won't be released. Unfortunately it means any new ada8000 has a high chance of containing a bad chip.

Personally I'd look at repair. I've just fixed an older Ada8000 which died after a decoupling cap shorted. Easy job to sort that. The only failure that's harder to resolve easily is if the transformer has failed. I haven't found a direct replacement in the UK.