Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

[Frank DeWitt]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

The faithful were worshiping long before amplified sound and doing so on a large scale.

They were, and they could again and in many places they do now, but if you suddenly pull the sound reinforcement from a 800 seat church with a pastor who has not been trained to project, then that church will have a problem.

I mix for a church every week but I am not familiar with the mind-numbingly simple songs and I won't use powerpoint. Churches are different.

I say again, Gods word deserves good quality gear.

Frank

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

They were, and they could again and in many places they do now, but if you suddenly pull the sound reinforcement from a 800 seat church with a pastor who has not been trained to project, then that church will have a problem.

I mix for a church every week but I am not familiar with the mind-numbingly simple songs and I won't use powerpoint. Churches are different.

I say again, Gods word deserves good quality gear.

Frank

Good stewardship involves more than being cheap... but you already know that.

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

I cringe whenever I hear that someone is putting unreliable gear in a church. In a church service everything depends on the sound. No sound, no service.

Frank

I cringe when people put unreliable gear in any live sound reinforcement setting. I'm making the assumption that the people who are present would like to hear what's going on, else they might not have been there.

Funny how much a concert og business presentation sucks with no audio...

At least the worshipers didn't pay admission :lol:

 

[Paul Mirtschin]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

I take your point, and its essentially that one gets what one pays for. But a lot of this thread has been Uli talking about how much Behringer's manufacturing processes have improved, how low their return rates are, how great their support is going to be and why we should trust Behringer equipment.


So, for example, not once have I "moaned" about the five year old ada8000 that recently failed and I managed to repair because a five year service life is about my expectations of the product. I certainly will complain about about the three brand new units that were dead out of the box...

If the Behringer brand is to be smiled on by audio pros, then a 10 year service life needs to become a realistic expectation.

And in 10-years, we will know what the life expectancy of the "New Behringer" gear is.

See, I have pretty much drawn a line in the sand, anything released (as in, a new product) in 2012 I see as the New Behringer. Design input from Midas and KT (and some from TS), manufacturing in the new city, all that stuff. Anything released in previous years, especially prior to 2008, see as the old Behringer, with the old designs etc. The older stuff I'm careful in choosing.

But the new stuff, of which I've tested and bought a bit of, all appears to not only be made as good/better than its market competitors, it matches/beats them on sound as well. It appears you will have to spend at least 40% more to get a better product (although my testing was just what was at hand, so can't really be called a test).

I'm willing to bet that the new gear coming out of Behringer City will last as long as the gear it is up against, and I'm doing so in purchasing items like the X32.

But I'll still be careful with the older designed stuff.

 

[Aaron Hammett]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

By that measure we remain committed to our manufacturing plant in China and in fact are planning to build a new factory of over 4 million square feet to further expand production. To us this is a better option than moving production to Vietnam, Mongolia or even North Korea as some have done.

8O~8-O~:shock:

I want to know who is doing that.

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

8O~8-O~:shock:

I want to know who is doing that.

Not really the same as setting up factories in North Korea, but:

North Korea are so strapped for cash, they have actually started to let some people leave the country...to go work in China.
Obviously, they stay in separate dorms, are not allowed to have money or socialize with other people - and their (very meager) pay check is sent directly to the North Korean state.

In every sense of the word, these people are North Korea's slaves and the Chinese shipbuilders featured in the report that I saw are more than a little complisite. I'm afraid this occurs in other trades, as well.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Not really the same as setting up factories in North Korea, but:

North Korea are so strapped for cash, they have actually started to let some people leave the country...to go work in China.
Obviously, they stay in separate dorms, are not allowed to have money or socialize with other people - and their (very meager) pay check is sent directly to the North Korean state.

I hadn't heard of that. I though China was pretty strict about keeping North Koreans in North Korea. South Korea has been trying for years to partner with North Korea on various manufacturing ventures as they identify with their former fellow citizens and peninsula-mates. The Chinese probably look on N koreans as non-chinese to be exploited. South Korea is much more altruistic.

In every sense of the word, these people are North Korea's slaves and the Chinese shipbuilders featured in the report that I saw are more than a little complisite. I'm afraid this occurs in other trades, as well.

I think Google executive (Schmidt) and other business leaders are in a delegation traveling to N Korea trying to open up some kind of trade relations. Right now. Not the first and probably not the last such attempt.

N Korea is a tough nut, run by a leader with zero empathy for his own people.

Viet Nam is AFAIK an agressive competitor in PAC rim trade. They have a reputation for shoddy goods (as other have when first starting out). I recall some laughable guitars they tried to sell made from old rubber tree wood decades ago, remnants of earlier days rubber plantations. I expect they are better now than they were, but this is an evolution that takes time.

Mongolia is tangled up in regional politics. Dominated by soviets since the 20's now independent. Mostly nomadic living on around $1 a day. Not exactly a rich target for industrialization, other than for the abject poverty. Land locked so don't expect container ships to show up.

I see Africa as the next frontier for low cost manufacturing. Auto makers have been investing there for years.

North Korea looks ripe for an East Germany/West Germany like re-consolidation, while AFAIK the Korean war has never been formally declared over. You can still get your ass shot wandering around the DMZ. So don't expect rapid westernization any time soon.

JR

PS "complicit"

 

[Lee Brenkman]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

FWIW I have this photo that was taken at a trade show in 2008

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

FWIW I have this photo that was taken at a trade show in 2008

That sign is sad for several reasons, but I've seen some pretty funny (bizarre) stuff down in that corner of the show as these small Chinese companies try to appeal to what they think American buyers want to hear. It is also a little unusual to see that many words all spelled correctly on one sign.

JR

 

[Lee Brenkman]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

It is also a little unusual to see that many words all spelled correctly on one sign.

JR

My reaction exactly.

And yes, it is a little sad what the vendors down in that corner think "we" want to hear.

 

[Gary J Green]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Please. Can we try to be realistic here. I have seen, touched and heard the X32. Very impressive piece of technology. 10 year life expectancy? I just pee-ed my pants laughing. This product (as every product) is built to a price and for a market. If it gets sold to it's intended user, a weekend bar band or a low budget church install, I'd guess 2 to 4 years. Any use more demanding than that, you should shorten the expected service life proportionately. I am guessing 90 to 180 days in my world. Just sayin'

Hi Steve...Your given timelines made me think...I just bought one of these x32 for fun "just to see..." and share all your same sentiments. At the same time within 3 weeks of each other I had a $1000 SPX2000 motherboard die and a $2500 Soundcraft CPS800 die. Neither of these units had even moved in 3 years.
And all this talk and gear failure reminds of the infamous QSC PLX ribbon cable issue where I sent back 9 of 11 after laboriously building a pile of amp racks only to tear apart.
This week I'm not feeling much trust in one manufacturer over another.
I have a feeling that this Behringer unit would hold up as long as the aforementioned 2 respected pieces of equipment if used under the same "install" conditions...I just get a sense that the respected names get a pass when theirs fail, but when a Uli Unit has a problem a different standard is in place.
Just seeming that way to me at this moment in time.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Hi Steve...Your given timelines made me think...I just bought one of these x32 for fun "just to see..." and share all your same sentiments. At the same time within 3 weeks of each other I had a $1000 SPX2000 motherboard die and a $2500 Soundcraft CPS800 die. Neither of these units had even moved in 3 years.
And all this talk and gear failure reminds of the infamous QSC PLX ribbon cable issue where I sent back 9 of 11 after laboriously building a pile of amp racks only to tear apart.
This week I'm not feeling much trust in one manufacturer over another.
I have a feeling that this Behringer unit would hold up as long as the aforementioned 2 respected pieces of equipment if used under the same "install" conditions...I just get a sense that the respected names get a pass when theirs fail, but when a Uli Unit has a problem a different standard is in place.
Just seeming that way to me at this moment in time.

Users tend to weigh their anecdotal personal experience disproportionately. An early bad experience can leave a customer snake-bit assuming all XYZ products are similarly shoddy. I recall reading about one consumer study in the personal computer business (by IBM IIRC) where they determined that brand loyalty was actually increased by a good service experience with a positive outcome. Brand loyalty and the likelihood that the customer would buy another XYZ was actually increased in the population that experienced a product failure, with good outcome, vs. the customers with no product failure at all !!!

Indeed every manufacturer has occasional random failures and if they stay in business long enough they even have a major screw-up (or more), where a product is just one challenge after another. That said there are huge differences in how companies deal with their customer service, and this experience is what customers react to long term, far more strongly than the failures themselves.

So if you have been active in the business for any duration, you will have experienced several different company's service departments and drawn your own conclusions from that.

To get a good reputation requires more than policing the sundry forums for squeaky wheels, but that is a start. Perceptions can not be changed by words but by actions, and that takes time to experience.

JR

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Hi Steve...Your given timelines made me think...I just bought one of these x32 for fun "just to see..." and share all your same sentiments. At the same time within 3 weeks of each other I had a $1000 SPX2000 motherboard die and a $2500 Soundcraft CPS800 die. Neither of these units had even moved in 3 years.
And all this talk and gear failure reminds of the infamous QSC PLX ribbon cable issue where I sent back 9 of 11 after laboriously building a pile of amp racks only to tear apart.
This week I'm not feeling much trust in one manufacturer over another.
I have a feeling that this Behringer unit would hold up as long as the aforementioned 2 respected pieces of equipment if used under the same "install" conditions...I just get a sense that the respected names get a pass when theirs fail, but when a Uli Unit has a problem a different standard is in place.
Just seeming that way to me at this moment in time.

It's that all-things audio answer: It Depends.

One of my employees has the old Behringer digital mixer. It finally became unusable when the oscillator circuit decided to send pink noise to all outputs. No amount of on/off changes that. Did a full reset, no fix. It's 10 years old. I suspect the sheet metal/enclosure is better than the X32.

It's hard to say what the Achilles heel of the X32 will be, but eventually there will be enough field experience with it for failure modes to start appearing. Behringer has been very quick to investigate and remedy assembly and cable-dress issues and firmware updates. They seem to be working very hard to *not* be the company that was so easy to make fun of just a year ago.

Time will tell.

As to your other issues... a new SPX2000 is $1150 at Sweetwater. I suspect your MoBo is everything but the case & front panel controls. Still, that's a big repair bill for something that should last at least 10 years in professional service. I think we have an SPX90 somewhere in the shop that still works over 20 years later. The Soundcraft PSU is also premature. Are both of these from the same rig/install?

 

[Gary Green]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

It's that all-things audio answer: It Depends.

As to your other issues... a new SPX2000 is $1150 at Sweetwater. I suspect your MoBo is everything but the case & front panel controls. Still, that's a big repair bill for something that should last at least 10 years in professional service. I think we have an SPX90 somewhere in the shop that still works over 20 years later. The Soundcraft PSU is also premature. Are both of these from the same rig/install?

Just my personal gear I use in my theater and Yup , MoBo fix is about 600.00.... The PSU fix was done for a couple hundred. The worst part was the anxiety of getting through various sold out shows with (1) PSU and thinking the whole time why should I be worrying - I shouldn't need $5000 in PS to use this desk . One should handle .
To JRs point - I would be guilty of giving the pass. Even after the QSC ribbon crap, virtually every amp I have bought since is QSC. Brand loyalty from the service .
If this X32 sees a different Behringer service and it doesn't suffer anything major - like say the LS9 fader replacement issues- then time will certainly tell. I know now though , that I already prefer it over my LS9 and O1v96...(but not my MH3 and Apb with racks of goodies) .
Funny thing too - while it isn't asked for for second desk duty, once I say I have one , it is the desk of choice. No one has walked away underwhelmed after using it. It meets or exceeds everyone's expectation.

 

[Menno de Boer]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Hello to all,
I found this forum and thread when googling 'Uli Behringer' and have been pleasantly surprised by the amount and quality of the info offered. You can't blame Mr. Behringer for using it to promote his brands and companies, at least he makes an effort to engage in an open dialogue. Thanks to the other forumites for their knowledgeable contributions as well.

I have owned -at one time- a Behringer Eurodesk (the Mackie 8-bus clone), Composer (compressor), some kind of enhancer (I forgot the name) and Powerplay (headphone amp). The last one was my favorite piece and at the time there was nothing else like it (to my knowledge, anyway).

Who are we kidding? Of course, I wanted the Mackie 8-bus, but that was more than twice the price at the time. The Eurodesk did the job, and it definitely made its money back. The Composer was okay, provided you'd stay within its rather narrow operating window or sweet spot. I never liked the enhancer. Bottom line is, this gear helped me get started and worked as advertised. I never had reliability issues.

I recently bought a B208D powered speaker which I use as a keyboard monitor on gigs. Considering that I spend more than 5 times the money on a JBL EON15G2 only 7 or 8 years ago, I think it is amazing how far we have come in terms of value for money.

If he is still around, My question to Uli would be:

You currently offer a few digital pianos, squarely targeted at the home market, and some USB keyboard controllers. Is the pro keyboard/synthesizer market at all on your radar?

 

[Steve Payne]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

If he is still around, My question to Uli would be:

You currently offer a few digital pianos, squarely targeted at the home market, and some USB keyboard controllers. Is the pro keyboard/synthesizer market at all on your radar?

I'll just get off at the next bus stop, thank you...

 

[Menno de Boer]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

I'll just get off at the next bus stop, thank you...

Please wait until the vehicle has come to a complete stop. Mind the gap. Thank you.

 

[Uli Behringer]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Dear Menno,

thank you for your kind comment and for your question.

I was asked a similar question some time ago and hence please allow me to re-post my answer below.

I am a classically trained pianist with a passion for Jazz and an immense admiration for Oscar Peterson. Naturally, I have a strong affinity for keyboards and while we used to make digital pianos in the past, we stopped its production some years ago since it is an extremely competitive business with a low return.

Would we build synthesizers?

It might interest you that I started my career by building my own synthesizer over 30 years ago. Luckily, the UB1 below never made it into mass production.
When you look at market stats for hardware synthesizers, you will notice that this category is in decline while the R&D effort do develop synthesizers is extensive. This is obviously not a good combination.

However we are definitely focusing on the development of new USB/Midi Controllers as this is a growing market where we feel we can add value through innovation.

A key factor for a successful business is focus and while we always keep an open mind for new opportunities, pianos and synthesizers are not on our priority list.

If you have a chance to visit us at the Namm show, you will easily easily understand what the Vision of our Company is.

Warm regards

Uli

Dear Phil,

I’d love to answer this question even at the risk of boring some readers because it reminds me of the very early days when I first got started.

Much of my knowledge comes from my father, who was a Nuclear Physicist. He worked at a Swiss research facility that operated a heavy-water reactor. His attention to detail and scientific thought process impressed me as a boy and I still remember today how he explained why it is important to pay attention to details even if you can’t see them later.

I learned a lot about determination and proper planning from watching my father build a full-fledged pipe organ in our house with over 1000 pipes! In addition to having a scientific mind he was also a passionate musician who regularly played the organ in our church. For him it was only natural to combine his love of music with his passion for imagining and building things that most people wouldn’t even dream of.

So, he salvaged an old broken organ from a dismantled church, then set about completely rebuilding and converting it to electronic control. In the process he ended out constructing the world’s first electronically controlled pipe organ. Only recently did I find out, that he earned a patent (Espacenet - Bibliographic data) for one of his inventions.
It was 1967, semiconductors had just become popular and I remember how my father would meticulously select Germanium transistors on our dining table.

My father had a full-blown workshop and often I would look over his shoulder, absorbing the care with which he built things. Every once in a while I would help him on his projects and thereby learned to have the same sensitivity to precision and pride in the result. Soon I started building my own projects and by the time I was 16 I had built my own synthesizer, complete with metal parts that I milled at the machine shop next door and rub-on “Letraset” labels on all the controls.

My first commercial product? By the 1970s, when I was around 12, I was ready to take on my first commercial product and it wasn’t in sound but rather in lighting. I had discovered the power of Triac and Diac semiconductors and was building them into “lightorgans” which triggered light bulbs to the rhythm of the music.
Very popular at the time, I sold so many around my neighborhood that I soon had enough money to buy a motorbike and get into all kinds of other trouble.

 

[Eric Eskam]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

I cringe whenever I hear that someone is putting unreliable gear in a church. In a church service everything depends on the sound. No sound, no service.

I cringe when I hear "experts" pitching expensive, "pro" solutions as the only solution, or implying that if you don't do it the "right" way your an idiot or something. Not everyone has ample funding, and there are plenty of "good enough" solutions out there with well balanced risks and value. Yes, there is lots of stupid/cheap stuff that can cost more than it's worth - but I don't think that's what we are talking about here. If I had the money would I like an Avid, Midas Pro1 or a bigger fancier desk? Sure! But we don't.

All products can have faults, and usually at the worst possible time. I think it's just as silly to assume that because you spent $10K, $20K or $100K on a piece of gear that it's some sort of ultimate guarantee. I do know that with the x32 I can pick up two for the price of other similar consoles and have a complete backup. Just like if our main analog console (a Crestwood if you must know) went this Sunday we would dive into the back to get the old analog Mackie out and get minimal sound going, I can swap out an X32 in the same way. And because it's digital and I can have copies of my scenes, I can get back to full functionality much quicker than with analog desks.

I think it's far more important to have a viable backup plan that's well thought out, documented and practiced ahead of time with all of your team for when the inevitable happens - with ANY vendor - rather than having some virtual pissing contest about who's more reliable and therefore the better deal or better stewardship.

Yes, if the x32 or any other gear showed signs of crapping out every other use or even more than once or twice a year then you might have a point - but it doesn't, nor do I think that most Behringer gear does. If all of their stuff was that bad it wouldn't sell as much as it does. I suspect you hear more about Behringer gear than other vendors probably because they sell proportionally more gear than most other vendors - and yes, that's due to price. I think I just saw a post from Christian in the main thread where he stated he has carted his X32 to over 80 gigs for almost a year now - with a pre-production model no less. Any attempt to gauge any vendors quality through non-scientfic samples such as support forums is ignorant and doomed to lead to faulty conclusions.

If your that risk adverse or not so budget challenged, then by all means pick something else. But please don't throw cold water on the x32 or Behringer and imply it has no value for everyone - because I know the pro's and con's and I'm more than willing to live with the product as it is. The bottom line - if I want to migrate to digital, it's the only option for us. Without Behringer for many things we simply wouldn't be able to do them - at all. Thank goodness there are vendors like them that are pushing the envelope and keeping things stirred up.

 

[Menno de Boer]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

When you look at market stats for hardware synthesizers, you will notice that this category is in decline while the R&D effort do develop synthesizers is extensive. This is obviously not a good combination.

However we are definitely focusing on the development of new USB/Midi Controllers as this is a growing market where we feel we can add value through innovation.

A key factor for a successful business is focus and while we always keep an open mind for new opportunities, pianos and synthesizers are not on our priority list.

If you have a chance to visit us at the Namm show, you will easily easily understand what the Vision of our Company is.

Hi Uli,
thanks for your response. I understand your position on hardware synths and it sounds sensible enough. While there are obviously many other factors involved, I think part of it is the manufacturers' inability to move away from designs that are essentially carry-overs from the 1980's (or even earlier).

Hey, MS and others peddled tablets for years without success and said Apple was bound to fail as there was no market for it.....

I will be at NAMM. Who knows, maybe I'll run into you!