Water damage... causes

Ryan Lantzy

Junior
Jan 10, 2011
266
0
16
Allegheny Mountains
Recently I discovered that the HF section of a three way cabinet I have (out of four) was out to lunch. Some testing quickly revealed it was neither the amp nor the cabling. So, we cracked open the box to find some significant water damage. About 1/3 of the back of the mid driver (magnet structure) was covered in rust (it worked properly though) and there was corrosion on the crossover bi-amp/tri-amp switch. This area is nearly sealed from the one that holds the HF driver and horn (which mounts from the front) though there are vents on the sides. After pulling the grille off and extracting the HF horn/driver assembly and subsequent dis-assembly, I found the following:


IMG_20120218_195552.jpg IMG_20120218_195537.jpg IMG_20120218_195407.jpg IMG_20120218_195415.jpg IMG_20120218_195430.jpg


The weird thing is, the diaphragm looked nearly 100% brand new - no obvious signs of damage. However, it measured open circuit. This is not a cheap driver, and I am not a rich man, so therefore I am very saddened by this turn of events. I can barely stomach opening the other boxes.

My question is this: is this something that could be caused by condensation? All of our equipment is kept in an unheated space as we are a pretty small operation these days. We do know that these have seen some rain and wet weather, but I've never seen anything like this. I have other speakers that have been in way way worse conditions and never had any issues. Since this horn was sealed off from the rear compartment I fail to see how both could have been damaged so badly by water. I can see how the horn could have collected water if tilted up (though it never has been) but that wouldn't explain how the water got into the rear compartment. The reverse is true too. The cabinet has a rear door (bolted on with gasket) and I could see how some water could have gotten in there in a strong downpour BUT how did it make it's way into the sealed off area with the horn mouth and HF driver? The other strange thing is that the LF driver is as clean as a whistle. Cone is firm, no signs of dry rot, magnet is clean, no corrosion - it looks brand spanking new. These boxes are about 7-8 years old of which we've owned them for 6-7 years.

This is why I fear condensation...
 
Re: Water damage... causes

How does the wood look? If it was serious liquid water inside, there would probably be stain marks on the wood. Otherwise that could be from humidity and condensation.

A pattern of use in a high humidity environment (club/bar), and storage afterwards in a cool enough trailer or warehouse, could lead to a pattern of regular condensation, or not...

The moisture came from somewhere.

JR
 
Re: Water damage... causes

Ryan that looks like condensation assuming the cabinets have never been flooded, reason I say that is the "coverage " is so even on the surfaces and you can see where it has wicked in round the bolt holes. I have no idea what the weather is like in your part of the world but maybe it's time to look at a dehumidifier in your storage space. They don't have to be big as long as the space is reasonably draughtproof and you can fit a permanent drain to the machine. G
 
Re: Water damage... causes

Would that "unheated space" be a utility trailer... possibly sitting outside with snow piled up on the roof and the sun shining on the sides?

If it is in a utility trailer, does you trailer have a window? My speakers got snowed on once, I had to vent the trailer for at least 2 months to get all of the condensation out of the speakers. Extreme humidity can do that to a speaker also, all it needs is a path from atmosphere into the chamber where the driver sits, like a bad gasket.
 
Re: Water damage... causes

If it is in a utility trailer, does you trailer have a window? My speakers got snowed on once, I had to vent the trailer for at least 2 months to get all of the condensation out of the speakers. Extreme humidity can do that to a speaker also, all it needs is a path from atmosphere into the chamber where the driver sits, like a bad gasket.
Yes, this is why I asked this question. I have seen utility trailers literally rain inside... water (lots of it) flowing out the back door on a perfect sunny winter day (that-is... the water what was flowing out the back door was beyond the water that wasn't sopped up by the gear being stored inside (out of the weather ;) )
 
Re: Water damage... causes

Extreme humidity can do that to a speaker also, all it needs is a path from atmosphere into the chamber where the driver sits, like a bad gasket.
or a port to get to the crossover.

It's basically open to the atmosphere all the way from the throat of a horn to the magnet gap of a compression driver.
 
Re: Water damage... causes

I've had speakers sit underwater for a month and they didn't look even close to that bad. I have no idea!

Generally, if there is little to no oxygen, then there won't be much corrosion on metal unless it sits underwater for years and years. So, if you extracted the drivers and dried them out, you probably prevented any corrosion issues from occurring.
 
Re: Water damage... causes

Yes, this is why I asked this question. I have seen utility trailers literally rain inside... water (lots of it) flowing out the back door on a perfect sunny winter day (that-is... the water what was flowing out the back door was beyond the water that wasn't sopped up by the gear being stored inside (out of the weather ;) )

Yes, they do sit in a box truck pretty much year round. That said, I've disassembled other speakers that sat in that same truck for even longer periods of time and I've never seen anything quite like this. Condensation seems unlikely (to me) for this reason but it's a much scarier problem if so.

We haven't pulled the other three cabinets apart to know their fate - though they are working just fine right now. That doesn't mean the corrosion hasn't started on them though, and that this box was just the first to go kaput.

I figure if I pull apart the other boxes and there is no corrosion then I can assume this wasn't condensation related - it was just that this box got really wet somehow (i.e. if corrosion, it would have affected all boxes roughly the same). However, if they are all corroded it doesn't prove anything. It could have been one of our "wet gigs" or condensation over several years.
 
Re: Water damage... causes

What a bummer, Ryan. I don't know if those are our drivers but if so let me know if you have any problem getting replacements. I would be surprised if you couldn't just clean the gap and insert a new diaphragm, but of course the back cover must still fit properly... I could ask engineering what they think, as well. If that's what I think it is the diaphragms are much less than the whole driver!
 
Re: Water damage... causes

Generally, if there is little to no oxygen, then there won't be much corrosion on metal unless it sits underwater for years and years. So, if you extracted the drivers and dried them out, you probably prevented any corrosion issues from occurring.

This sounds nice, but it is practically untrue. Dearated water that underwent reverse osmosis to 18 MOhm, removing all the electrolyte, sure. Normal standing water, though, has essentially oxygen up to the claperyon solubility limit and a broad spectrum of ions for conduction.
 
Re: Water damage... causes

This sounds nice, but it is practically untrue. Dearated water that underwent reverse osmosis to 18 MOhm, removing all the electrolyte, sure. Normal standing water, though, has essentially oxygen up to the claperyon solubility limit and a broad spectrum of ions for conduction.

Actually when I was working on boats I saw several that were totally sunk and then lifted. The electronics were fine after appropriate drying out. One boat was deemed a total loss by the insurance company, but a diver was able to recover the electronics and loose gear, all of which ended up working fine. This was actually in a salt water environment, so the conductivity was high.

So I would say in a practical sense, while oxygen is soluble in water, something that is completely submerged is probably not exposed to enough oxygen for serious corrision. The deeper the water, the less oxygen exposure there would be.
 
Re: Water damage... causes

Chemistry geeking follows...

According to my handbook of chemistry and physics the solubility of O2 in water at 25 degrees celsius is given by the mole fraction of 2.29 x 10 -5. Assuming 1 L of solution that corresponds to 0.00127 moles of O2 which would have the capacity to convert 0.14 grams of Fe to FeO, or it would take all of the oxygen in 7L of water to convert 1 g of Fe to FeO.

That is a best (worse) case scenerio where oxygen in dissolved in pure water. Adding electrolytes actually reduces the solubility of oxygen in water.
 
Re: Water damage... causes

I am by no meens an expert on what happens with condensation. I have heard of condensation and I believe that it may actually exist but I have never seen it.

All joking aside...

Ryan, I am not sure what boxes you have, KF650z? What is the material that the horn is made out of? Is it possible that with your humidity up there that the magnet structure there is acting as a zinc and is therefore corroding while it is actually (unintentionally in this case) protecting the horn from corrosion due to it being a dis-similar metal? It really wouldn't take a whole lot of moisture to make the more corrosive metal start to deteriate if it is in contact with another metal.
 
Re: Water damage... causes

Actually when I was working on boats I saw several that were totally sunk and then lifted. The electronics were fine after appropriate drying out. One boat was deemed a total loss by the insurance company, but a diver was able to recover the electronics and loose gear, all of which ended up working fine. This was actually in a salt water environment, so the conductivity was high.

So I would say in a practical sense, while oxygen is soluble in water, something that is completely submerged is probably not exposed to enough oxygen for serious corrision. The deeper the water, the less oxygen exposure there would be.

Jay,

The dissolved O2 in the water is not oxidizing the metal, so your calculations have little bearing on the relevant corrosion process. More later...
 
Re: Water damage... causes

I am sure I am thinking in general terms while Phil is probably thinking of a specific process such as galvanic corrosion based on dissimilar metals, but to my knowledge oxygen remains the most common oxidizer (most favorable thermodynamically) in naturally occuring water samples.
 
Re: Water damage... causes

Hello Ryan,
You need to check the other drivers. One, to see if they are corroding too. and Two, if they are, to clean them before those diaphragms also go.
Then figure out what is going wrong.

I like the thumbnails #4/5 because the curves are different sizes, and look interesting next to each other.

Regards, Jack