Water damage... causes

[W. Mark Hellinger]

Re: Water damage... causes

It will cost $$ to heat the trailer, perhaps make insulated road cases for the water sensitive gear with incandescent light bulbs inside. Why heat the whole trailer and great outdoors?

JR

I'll suggest insulating the trailer or box van. Maybe spray-in foam and then panel with 1/4" plywood?

 

[gordon mcgregor]

Re: Water damage... causes

I doubt you'll need to heat the trailer much if at all getting a better air flow through it will help a lot, a small dehumidifier will also help most decent ones will have frost stat on them and run as and when they can in cold weather as I said before there are small solar fans which you can fit onto a truck roof or side of the box add a few vents low dow and the air changes will reduce the water content in the truck significantly, if it's possible to put a dehumidifier in then great but I would get the air moving 1st
Solatube Daylighting System and Tubular Daylighting Devices for residential or commercial daylighting and sunlighting needs are the smart, green and environmentally friendly alternative to traditional skylights try something like these G

 

[Chris Davis]

Re: Water damage... causes

This might not be a problem if the dehumidifier was triggered by a thermostat to only turn on when the air inside rose above the point where condensation on the gear would pose a serious threat. The problem for me is that there is no easy way to get power to where the truck usually sits.

We opened one of the other cabinets and found some corrosion on the back of the magnet for the MF driver. We haven't looked at the rest yet, but will be doing that soon. Depending on what we find will determine possible causes IMO.

For instance if all of the HF drivers are corroded in the same way I would lean on that being related to condensation. It would be damn near impossible for any damaging amount of water to get into all of them from rain (IMO). However, I know of at least one gig where they got much wetter than we would have liked and this could still be the source of the damage.

I guess my supposition is this: If the damage is fairly uniform across all boxes I lean toward condensation as the source. If the one or two of the boxes are far worse than the other two, or one or two of the boxes show no signs of damage at all, I would lean toward a rain event (and time spent with wet components) causing the damage. It would not be very logical for 1 or 2 boxes to be clean as a whistle and the remainder to be totally corroded if condensation were to blame, they sit in the exact same spot in the box and over the years their position L-R in the box would have been fairly randomized. This is all conjecture until we open them, and even then it still may be.

What still doesn't jive with me is that no other equipment in this truck has ever seen anywhere near this kind of corrosion so water damage from rain is highly suspect in my mind.

Agreed 100% with your conclusions. If rust damage is uniform across all boxes, then it is probably due to condensation. The random truck placement would go towards making your point. On the other hand, I don't see how this could not happen uniformly, nor do I see how a single event could have caused it all, but you haven't gotten that far yet.

I am no chemist by any means, but there is probably a very easy and logical explanation. Perhaps the composition of the surfaces, and/or coating, or lack of it? If I understood your posts correctly, the midrange magnet is essentially able to vent out through woofer ports? Maybe then the entire speaker is not able to vent out, i.e. perhaps you store them in boxes or under Cloud 9 covers or similar?

Also, the speaker magnets most likely will have the highest metal mass of anything in your entire audio system. That would lend them to stay relatively colder for longer periods of time, thus developing larger beads of condensation that last for longer amounts of time and do the most amount of damage.

As a side thought, let's say I bake a large party-sized (90 Oz) frozen dish in the oven at 400°F for two hours. Immediately after I pull it out, I have no problem removing the aluminum foil with my bare hands. It feels a little warm, but is not even hot to the touch. (In all fairness, I removed the foil first, then replaced it loosely before baking it). Bear in mind though, the dish itself just came out of a 400°F oven. The foil cover drops to room temperature almost immediately because it has such a low mass. The opposite would also be true. A thick glass casserole dish would burn the skin right off my hands if I try to handle it straight out of the oven. It has a higher mass, and will hold the temperature for a much longer period of time.

So I wouldn't be as worried about the rest of the system, and that is why. Nevertheless, I might be inclined to have a quick peek inside the rest of the gear at least once, just to see how it is.

 

[Ryan Lantzy]

Re: Water damage... causes

Another thought I had pop into my head...

Where did the ferrofluid go? This driver supposedly has ferro fluid in the gap and it was GONE. Dry as a bone. I don't know much about ferrofluid but I'm wondering if the condensation could have displaced it like that. Actually, it would have had to first dilute it and then some how evaporate with the condensation or leak out.

 

[Art Welter]

Re: Water damage... causes

Another thought I had pop into my head...

Where did the ferrofluid go? This driver supposedly has ferro fluid in the gap and it was GONE. Dry as a bone. I don't know much about ferrofluid but I'm wondering if the condensation could have displaced it like that. Actually, it would have had to first dilute it and then some how evaporate with the condensation or leak out.

If there ever was any ferrofluid in the gap, you would have noticed it on the voice coil and it would still be present in the gap, it is as hard to get rid of as used motor oil.

Have you checked your other drivers yet? You may just be dealing with one bad apple someone stuck you with.

Art

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Water damage... causes

Agreed 100% with your conclusions. If rust damage is uniform across all boxes, then it is probably due to condensation. The random truck placement would go towards making your point. On the other hand, I don't see how this could not happen uniformly, nor do I see how a single event could have caused it all, but you haven't gotten that far yet.

I am no chemist by any means, but there is probably a very easy and logical explanation. Perhaps the composition of the surfaces, and/or coating, or lack of it? If I understood your posts correctly, the midrange magnet is essentially able to vent out through woofer ports? Maybe then the entire speaker is not able to vent out, i.e. perhaps you store them in boxes or under Cloud 9 covers or similar?

Also, the speaker magnets most likely will have the highest metal mass of anything in your entire audio system. That would lend them to stay relatively colder for longer periods of time, thus developing larger beads of condensation that last for longer amounts of time and do the most amount of damage.

As a side thought, let's say I bake a large party-sized (90 Oz) frozen dish in the oven at 400°F for two hours. Immediately after I pull it out, I have no problem removing the aluminum foil with my bare hands. It feels a little warm, but is not even hot to the touch. (In all fairness, I removed the foil first, then replaced it loosely before baking it). Bear in mind though, the dish itself just came out of a 400°F oven. The foil cover drops to room temperature almost immediately because it has such a low mass. The opposite would also be true. A thick glass casserole dish would burn the skin right off my hands if I try to handle it straight out of the oven. It has a higher mass, and will hold the temperature for a much longer period of time.

So I wouldn't be as worried about the rest of the system, and that is why. Nevertheless, I might be inclined to have a quick peek inside the rest of the gear at least once, just to see how it is.

Not trying to be argumentative, but there are a few points to consider in your cooking example: Remember that dry and wet hands will make things seem hottoer or colder. Also, different materials have different heat conductivity: Aluminum foil does conduct heat very well, but has very low mass. A glass dish will behave differently from a ceramic dish, etc. I remember seeing a documentary where they heated a piece of iron and a piece of space shuttle skin in the same open flame until the iron was red-hot. The presenter could just turn off the flame and handle the NASA bit with bare hands :O

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Water damage... causes

Not trying to be argumentative, but there are a few points to consider in your cooking example: Remember that dry and wet hands will make things seem hottoer or colder. Also, different materials have different heat conductivity: Aluminum foil does conduct heat very well, but has very low mass. A glass dish will behave differently from a ceramic dish, etc. I remember seeing a documentary where they heated a piece of iron and a piece of space shuttle skin in the same open flame until the iron was red-hot. The presenter could just turn off the flame and handle the NASA bit with bare hands :O

I bit off point, both the wet hands and shuttle tile are examples of thermal resistance when in physical contact (wet hands lower resistance, tile high resistance) which to ambient air will be similar. The higher thermal mass is why cold metal parts will attract more condensation.
=======
One point not yet determined is when does the moisture accumulate? Cold speakers brought into a warm venue can attract moisture, that hopefully will dry as the speaker is used and heats up. When packed back into the trailer they will be warmer than ambient so not an issue. Heating and cooling cycles inside the trailer may be the issue as air in the trailer heats faster than the massive metal speaker parts...

I am leaning toward relatively tight road cases for the speakers, with perhaps a light bulb inside to heat/dry.

Of course you know your pattern of usage better than I can guess. If they don't get warm at every gig, they can pick up moisture there.

JR

 

[Chris Davis]

Re: Water damage... causes

Not trying to be argumentative, but there are a few points to consider in your cooking example: Remember that dry and wet hands will make things seem hottoer or colder. Also, different materials have different heat conductivity: Aluminum foil does conduct heat very well, but has very low mass. A glass dish will behave differently from a ceramic dish, etc. I remember seeing a documentary where they heated a piece of iron and a piece of space shuttle skin in the same open flame until the iron was red-hot. The presenter could just turn off the flame and handle the NASA bit with bare hands :O

Hi Kristian, no worries. I assumed dry hands for the cooking example. In the case of the speakers, there is the cool temperature relative to the ambient air which comes first, then the condensation follows, and possibly things behave differently then after that. The behavior of the space shuttle tiles is interesting though.

 

[Chris Davis]

Re: Water damage... causes

I bit off point, both the wet hands and shuttle tile are examples of thermal resistance when in physical contact (wet hands lower resistance, tile high resistance) which to ambient air will be similar. The higher thermal mass is why cold metal parts will attract more condensation.
=======
One point not yet determined is when does the moisture accumulate? Cold speakers brought into a warm venue can attract moisture, that hopefully will dry as the speaker is used and heats up. When packed back into the trailer they will be warmer than ambient so not an issue. Heating and cooling cycles inside the trailer may be the issue as air in the trailer heats faster than the massive metal speaker parts...

I am leaning toward relatively tight road cases for the speakers, with perhaps a light bulb inside to heat/dry.

Of course you know your pattern of usage better than I can guess. If they don't get warm at every gig, they can pick up moisture there.

JR

I am thinking most of this damage probably takes place during the early morning hours, when the dew first sets in on the grass and everything gets moist for a short period of time as the sun comes up. After that, of course, everything starts to warm up and then you have a dry day. I would expect the cause to be something like that on a consistent ongoing basis, day in and day out, rather than an occasional happening.

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: Water damage... causes

Hello Ryan,
Someone mentioned covers, and no word of it since.
Are you using speaker covers, or cases?

I know my speakers with covers are more susceptible to being damp when I take off the covers, than those in cases.

As an aside, I have a very easy climate. Most of my horn/driver combinations are not even in boxes.
And I never cover them in the little rain I do encounter.

My biggest problem is large surfaces of cases cracking in the winter, because the laminate expands and contracts at different rates than the wood.

Regards, Jack

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Water damage... causes

I am thinking most of this damage probably takes place during the early morning hours, when the dew first sets in on the grass and everything gets moist for a short period of time as the sun comes up. After that, of course, everything starts to warm up and then you have a dry day. I would expect the cause to be something like that on a consistent ongoing basis, day in and day out, rather than an occasional happening.

Yes, but dew doesn't generally form inside a parked car with the windows closed.

I may be getting repetitious, but putting the speakers inside relatively tight road cases may be enough to prevent the accumulation of moisture and damage. The light bulb heaters may be unnecessary.

Of course if he already stores them inside road cases..... consider adding the light bulbs. :-(

JR

 

[Chris Davis]

Re: Water damage... causes

Yes, but dew doesn't generally form inside a parked car with the windows closed.

I may be getting repetitious, but putting the speakers inside relatively tight road cases may be enough to prevent the accumulation of moisture and damage. The light bulb heaters may be unnecessary.

Of course if he already stores them inside road cases..... consider adding the light bulbs. :-(

JR

I thought they were stored in a trailer. Either way, there is moisture in the air, and if it gets cold out at night then the weather warming up each morning might easily have something to do with that.

Agreed on the tightly sealed cases.