Yes, it's cliche, yes it's overdiscussed, but yes, I need new subs.

Re: Yes, it's cliche, yes it's overdiscussed, but yes, I need new subs.

Evan Kirkendall said:
Also, FWIW- I've used the JTR stuff and have not been impressed.
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The Growlers aren't a particularly efficient cabinet - about the same as an SRX718S but can take quite a bit more power without distorting. I've concluded that folks don't really want clean hifi bass such as the Growlers generate - your ears really don't pick it up well. It's the harmonics that we perceive as strong bass, not the fundamentals. When driven past xmax subs generate quite a bit of that which I believe is why many folks are always saying that a certain sub doesn't "come alive" until powered to a certain level. None of my subs go much below 50Hz but I use a Waves "MaxxBass" unit to generate those harmonics that make them sound like they go down to 20Hz - unless you get close enough to notice there's quite a bit less air movement than expected up close you really can't tell I'm "faking" it ;) . It's particularly effective on conventional horn subs that get all flabby if you feed them anything below their cutoff.
 
Re: Yes, it's cliche, yes it's overdiscussed, but yes, I need new subs.

He wants them to fit in his trailer so they need to be 22-1/2" in one dimension.

Both the TH-118 and the Orbit Shifter were designed with trailer pack in mind and are 22-1/2" wide.
 
Re: Yes, it's cliche, yes it's overdiscussed, but yes, I need new subs.

drew gandy said:
I'm trying to understand what the real issue is:

A) You need something smaller than a LAB.
B) You need something easier to move than a LAB.
C) you need something "new" to try out.

If B is the issue then I'm curious if, in the past, you have built your LABs with kickback wheels. I've found my LABs to be quite easy to move around by myself with the kickback wheels. The issues I have are when I want to stack them rather than use them side by side (stacking usually takes 2 guys) and the fact that I can't put "riders" on them when I move them.

If C is the issue then I think you need to sign up for some demos and save some more pennies.

-drew
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It's A and B.

My LABs all have wheels on the back; I can lay them down and pick them up, and even stack them myself, if I have to. I'd just rather not.

Not sure how you have ascertained that I need more money, since I haven't specified a budget at all.
 
Re: Yes, it's cliche, yes it's overdiscussed, but yes, I need new subs.

Evan Kirkendall said:
What's your budget? That's the ultimate deciding factor. And do you really need tour grade subs, or will MI subs get the job done? If you want the ultimate output, I'd look at the d&b B2 or L'Acoustic SB28. Honestly, not much else is going to give you "better" output than the LAB's in a much smaller size. I've beat on many different subs, and those are the ones(commercially available) I like the best.

Also, FWIW- I've used the JTR stuff and have not been impressed.


Evan
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L'acoustics will no logner sell you speakers without also buying their amps. you have to invest in the whole system. As a BE looking for consistency, I like that policy but as a provider it wouldn't be for me. The same is true with D&B. You need D12 amps.

What about Nexo RS18? On paper it fits your needs. Nexo prefers you use their amps, but as far as I know they don't require it.
 
Re: Yes, it's cliche, yes it's overdiscussed, but yes, I need new subs.

drew gandy said:
I'm trying to understand what the real issue is:

A) You need something smaller than a LAB.
B) You need something easier to move than a LAB.
C) you need something "new" to try out.

If B is the issue then I'm curious if, in the past, you have built your LABs with kickback wheels. I've found my LABs to be quite easy to move around by myself with the kickback wheels. The issues I have are when I want to stack them rather than use them side by side (stacking usually takes 2 guys) and the fact that I can't put "riders" on them when I move them.

If C is the issue then I think you need to sign up for some demos and save some more pennies.

-drew
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I suspect he's happy with the performance but not the size and weight and is willing to sacrifice a bit of performance for the sake of usability, but only to a certain point and up to a certain cost. I'm at a similar cross roads, but instead of subs that are too heavy, my LA400's underwhelm in the performance department but are relatively easy to move around and 8 of them are worth about what a pair of real subs would cost (if that). My racks and stacks clients are unfortunately the type that wouldn't be happy with two great subs in the place of eight mediocre ones, and a pair of LA400's provide a 6' base which is handy for budget racks and stacks gigs (and with a plinth I can use just two per side and still have a rock solid platform for tops).

My goal is convergence of my SOS and Racks and Stacks to a common subwoofer like the VRX and VP series sub. 8 or 12 and you've got a pretty scaleable system that can do the quick and dirty racks and stacks gigs as well as smaller weddings and corporate stuff for which good quality SOS is sufficient. No, it's not the meanest bad-ass sub system, but it would get a lot of jobs done. From a business standpoint I'd be fixing a problem that doesn't really exist though, as most of my clients are more than happy with what I have at the moment.
 
Re: Yes, it's cliche, yes it's overdiscussed, but yes, I need new subs.

Marlow Wilson said:
I suspect he's happy with the performance but not the size and weight and is willing to sacrifice a bit of performance for the sake of usability, but only to a certain point and up to a certain cost. I'm at a similar cross roads, but instead of subs that are too heavy, my LA400's underwhelm in the performance department but are relatively easy to move around and 8 of them are worth about what a pair of real subs would cost (if that). My racks and stacks clients are unfortunately the type that wouldn't be happy with two great subs in the place of eight mediocre ones, and a pair of LA400's provide a 6' base which is handy for budget racks and stacks gigs (and with a plinth I can use just two per side and still have a rock solid platform for tops).

My goal is convergence of my SOS and Racks and Stacks to a common subwoofer like the VRX and VP series sub. 8 or 12 and you've got a pretty scaleable system that can do the quick and dirty racks and stacks gigs as well as smaller weddings and corporate stuff for which good quality SOS is sufficient. No, it's not the meanest bad-ass sub system, but it would get a lot of jobs done. From a business standpoint I'd be fixing a problem that doesn't really exist though, as most of my clients are more than happy with what I have at the moment.
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Marlow hit the nail on the head here. There is nothing really wrong with the LABs, they have plenty of performance for my needs, my clients love them, but they are just generally annoying to move around. More of something smaller would be beneficial for the scalability and sub array aspect of things. Another issue with LABs is that using a single isn't really possible, so I'm stuck with too much sub at even the smallest shows. I'm sure a couple powered 18s would be nice to fill in this gap, but I'd rather have a whole pile of the same thing, I think.

Also, I would really, really like to stay away from using anything other than my IT-HD amps. The integration of System Architect in my rig is pretty much critical, and I'm not willing to run different programs to control the rig depending on what passband I'm trying to work on.
 
Re: Yes, it's cliche, yes it's overdiscussed, but yes, I need new subs.

Jason Raboin said:
What about Nexo RS18? On paper it fits your needs. Nexo prefers you use their amps, but as far as I know they don't require it.
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I won't buy anything Yamaha or Nexo, unfortunately. I need customer service for the products I use...

PS - I'm trying to avoid sounding like a cranky old man here. Here's a nice smiley emoticon to further that point: :razz:

PPS - I just had another idea. I recently used twelve PRX618S-XLF subs for a few thousand people outside...it was plenty of sub for my taste. According to some quick math, 8 of them would do about the same as 4 LAB subs? Not sure I believe that. I think I need to measure LABs to get a real idea of what they're doing so I have a basis for comparison.

I'm quite overwhelmed with the subwoofer possibilities right now. It's one of those decisions that I could take a year to make, but it's got to be made much quicker than that.
 
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Re: Yes, it's cliche, yes it's overdiscussed, but yes, I need new subs.

Ive used a pair of VRX-SP subs here and there and find them very easy to move around and pack. Sitting on the backs or on casters they are about 21" wide. While I have never used the XLF, (nobody rents them around here) the VRX seems to stack better together. For what its worth.
 
Re: Yes, it's cliche, yes it's overdiscussed, but yes, I need new subs.

Silas Pradetto said:
I have to replace my last four LAB subs very quickly since I think they are sold. Here are the criteria:
  • Must be 22.5" or less in one dimension (quarter pack!)
  • A non-ridiculous quantity must have output near 4 LAB subs, or say, 8 double 18s
  • Response to 40Hz is required, lower is better though
  • I'd like to be able to move them by myself. I can move LABs, but not so easily.
As far as I know, nothing front loaded is going to fit the bill. The only thing that pops into my head immediately are TH118s, probably 4 to 6 of them. Another idea I had was maybe 8 Yorkville UCS1s?

According to my quick excel sheet, 8 UCS1s will be 1dB quieter than 4 LAB subs, while 4 TH118s will be about 2dB quieter than 4 LAB subs. The 6 TH118s would certainly do the job.

Cost-wise, the UCS1s are cheapest. The TH118s aren't so cheap. Another option was building some other DIY horn that is smaller than a LAB, but is there anything out there that could possibly fit the bill?
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Silas.

Have you checked out Randy Frierson's offerings?
 
Re: Yes, it's cliche, yes it's overdiscussed, but yes, I need new subs.

Helge Dr. Bentsen said:
One of the more affordable subwoofers, atleast here in Norway, is the EAW SB850z. Has a good low frequency extension, get's plenty loud and sounds good IMHO. But they are a bit bigger physically than what you're looking after.
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I agree that it goes low and sounds good, but it does not get plenty loud compared to pretty much anything else its size. Also, Silas appears to be prejudiced against front loaded designs.
 
Re: Yes, it's cliche, yes it's overdiscussed, but yes, I need new subs.

Silas Pradetto said:
Marlow hit the nail on the head here. There is nothing really wrong with the LABs, they have plenty of performance for my needs, my clients love them, but they are just generally annoying to move around. More of something smaller would be beneficial for the scalability and sub array aspect of things. Another issue with LABs is that using a single isn't really possible, so I'm stuck with too much sub at even the smallest shows. I'm sure a couple powered 18s would be nice to fill in this gap, but I'd rather have a whole pile of the same thing, I think.

Also, I would really, really like to stay away from using anything other than my IT-HD amps. The integration of System Architect in my rig is pretty much critical, and I'm not willing to run different programs to control the rig depending on what passband I'm trying to work on.
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I'm very impressed with the 4 VP subs I currently have. Don't under estimate these, they really sound good. They get low and loud. I can easily do rock music for up to 500 with plenty room to spare. (I don't do shows much larger than that anyway) 20.25" wide facing up. It's a bitch to put casters on, but very well worth it. It's nice to be able to bring in as many as I need for the job...1 or all 4. Built in I-tech amps with system architect, on the network version. Easy to stack.
 
Re: Yes, it's cliche, yes it's overdiscussed, but yes, I need new subs.

Jamin Lynch said:
I'm very impressed with the 4 VP subs I currently have. Don't under estimate these, they really sound good. They get low and loud. I can easily do rock music for up to 500 with plenty room to spare. (I don't do shows much larger than that anyway) 20.25" wide facing up. It's a bitch to put casters on, but very well worth it. It's nice to be able to bring in as many as I need for the job...1 or all 4. Built in I-tech amps with system architect, on the network version. Easy to stack.
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If four can do 500 people, then I'd need about 12. I don't have 30 grand for subs, unfortunately.
 
Re: Yes, it's cliche, yes it's overdiscussed, but yes, I need new subs.

I've put together a Google spreadsheet to help me make the decision.

It calculates how many subs it would take to reach 154dB (approx 4 LABs) based on the 1 watt sensitivity (I corrected it if it were based on 2.83 volts) and the nominal power each can handle.

I would put pricing on the sheet, but that is something I can't publish.

And, if you have another subwoofer you'd like me to put on the sheet, send me the info or link and I'll put it on there. That link will update automatically when I add more to it.
 
Re: Yes, it's cliche, yes it's overdiscussed, but yes, I need new subs.

Considering you're comparing to a subwoofer for which there are no published specifications, and for which available specifications are probably not accurate, using subwoofers for which you only have the manufacturer's (also possibly wildly inaccurate) max SPL spec, I think you're just masturbating out loud.

If you must have a horn loaded sub, you really only have one or two options in your price range. Since you are comparing to front radiators, clearly that is less of a demand than you seem to think.
 
Re: Yes, it's cliche, yes it's overdiscussed, but yes, I need new subs.

Bennett Prescott said:
Considering you're comparing to a subwoofer for which there are no published specifications, and for which available specifications are probably not accurate, using subwoofers for which you only have the manufacturer's (also possibly wildly inaccurate) max SPL spec, I think you're just masturbating out loud.

If you must have a horn loaded sub, you really only have one or two options in your price range. Since you are comparing to front radiators, clearly that is less of a demand than you seem to think.
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It doesn't matter how it gets there, just that it does get there. I'm using a 'sensitivity' spec from the manufacturer, and as you say, there is no real way to compare one to another. The Danley stuff is all rated at 2.83 volts, so I'm taking it back to a 1 watt spec, but even that is impossible since the impedance varies wildly.

Initially I was under the impression that there would be no front-loaded subwoofer that could equate to a LAB in a reasonable quantity. The SRX718S appear to require 10 units to be equal, which is just on the verge of being unreasonable, IMO. However, looking at the volume (I should have another column for size compared to 4 LABs, hmmm), 10 SRX718S is still less volume than 4 LAB subs. So it's not nearly as bad as it would seem, except that the power requirement would be a lot higher than just four LABs.

I think the sheet could make a quantitative comparison a bit easier. Who knows? If it's based on false numbers then it will only add to the confusion.

PS - I'm not using the manufacturer-provided 'peak' spec. I'm calculating it in the sheet off my own power and sensitivity numbers.
 
Re: Yes, it's cliche, yes it's overdiscussed, but yes, I need new subs.

Silas Pradetto said:
It doesn't matter how it gets there, just that it does get there. I'm using a 'sensitivity' spec from the manufacturer, and as you say, there is no real way to compare one to another. The Danley stuff is all rated at 2.83 volts, so I'm taking it back to a 1 watt spec, but even that is impossible since the impedance varies wildly.

Initially I was under the impression that there would be no front-loaded subwoofer that could equate to a LAB in a reasonable quantity. The SRX718S appear to require 10 units to be equal, which is just on the verge of being unreasonable, IMO. However, looking at the volume (I should have another column for size compared to 4 LABs, hmmm), 10 SRX718S is still less volume than 4 LAB subs. So it's not nearly as bad as it would seem, except that the power requirement would be a lot higher than just four LABs.

I think the sheet could make a quantitative comparison a bit easier. Who knows? If it's based on false numbers then it will only add to the confusion.

PS - I'm not using the manufacturer-provided 'peak' spec. I'm calculating it in the sheet off my own power and sensitivity numbers.
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Sounds like you should just keep your LABS.
 
Re: Yes, it's cliche, yes it's overdiscussed, but yes, I need new subs.

Jamin Lynch said:
Sounds like you should just keep your LABS.
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It really might come down to building some more, I'm not sure yet. Since I've already committed my remaining 4 to a customer, I will need something else in the meantime.

@Gene... I added those subs to my sheet. I could get two of those subs in the front of the trailer (if I go the 30" wide way) and have a few inches to spare. The nice thing is that I could stack them and have four units in only 24.5" of trailer space. Only issue I have with those is that they will absolutely need cloth-backed grilles to be presentable for my shows.
 
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