Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

You can think what you want, go talk to some guys that are experienced with the boxes in questions and find out what they're true capabilities are, you might be surprised.

I've talked to 3 different TVI owners now and the answer is always the same, super reliable, very loud, and sound great. I asked them if they have ever been turned down or lost work because of the brand and they said no. I know and they know that its not JBL or EAW, but my God some people are on a budget in this country.

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Brandon,


My local market has also seen an influx of dB Technologies T4. These are also very light (30ish lbs). Sound-wise I personally don't think them that special, but they are built well, are light, and look like they hit a good price point for ROI. I'd certainly consider them if I was in the rental business. People here have said good thing about their big brother, the T12, and I'm looking forward to experiencing those.

Hi Phil,
For the price the T4 are great but the T12’s are MUCH MUCH better. I have heard T12s, Nexo Geo 12S and EAW KF730s (XTA 226) in a shootout - 8 of each. The T12’s sounded the best, threw about 90m compared to about 60m for the others and were the loudest. KF730s with a UX8800 sound better but don’t throw as well or go as hard.

 

[Spenser Hamilton]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

I've talked to 3 different TVI owners now and the answer is always the same, super reliable, very loud, and sound great. I asked them if they have ever been turned down or lost work because of the brand and they said no. I know and they know that its not JBL or EAW, but my God some people are on a budget in this country.

Fair enough, you seem pretty sold on them. Have you by any chance talked to people that run other boxes?

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

I have one venue that I do regularly that is 200 feet + deep and holds about 4K and I just don't think some of the little boxes that have been mentioned can do it with clarity and at rock levels, Rider or No Rider in many many cases the sound has to be there...

So what do you use for it now?

 

[Shane Presley]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

I have one venue that I do regularly that is 200 feet + deep and holds about 4K and I just don't think some of the little boxes that have been mentioned can do it with clarity and at rock levels, Rider or No Rider in many many cases the sound has to be there...

Orrrr you could do delays part way back.... Any pa mentioned here wouldnt be solid for 4k people. Not without doing more than 8 per side.

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

So what do you use for it now?

+1 ...?

 

[Silas Pradetto]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

I've talked to 3 different TVI owners now and the answer is always the same, super reliable, very loud, and sound great. I asked them if they have ever been turned down or lost work because of the brand and they said no. I know and they know that its not JBL or EAW, but my God some people are on a budget in this country.

Don't you think someone buying a TVI rig would have an opinion biased in such a way to support their ridiculous decision? I mean, most guys have no idea what sounds good anyway, so buying a TVI rig to satisfy 'line array' buzzword cravings is just going to result in people that don't know any better showing the rig off and making it out to be the best thing ever.

If you value your reputation, listen to the rig you intend to buy first. There are a lot of options, but far fewer options that sound good. Coverage is especially hard to get right, it seems.

So is DSP. McCauley kept me on the phone for an hour with a sales pitch, and eventually revealed they have no real tunings for the M90s I was tasked with deploying.

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

So what do you use for it now?

10 VR112's per side over 4 VR218's per side, which actually does a heck of a job in that room. I have a guy interested in buying my rig so I'm looking for something else within my budget. Like I said, I've never ever had anybody turn down my rig for being Peavey or being Versarray, in fact most engineers have thought it sounded good. Plus, I'm interested in possibly a powered box to make setup a little faster, plus I then will be able to take my old FOH power amps and biamp my monitor wedges

 

[Michael John]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

+1 for the Nexo S8's. I've comfortably used 9 per side over SB1000's outdoors for space that could hold at least 2k. Admittedly a little less than rock-n-roll levels but the guy who supplied the S8's said I had a lot of headroom.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

10 VR112's per side over 4 VR218's per side, which actually does a heck of a job in that room. I have a guy interested in buying my rig so I'm looking for something else within my budget. Like I said, I've never ever had anybody turn down my rig for being Peavey or being Versarray, in fact most engineers have thought it sounded good. Plus, I'm interested in possibly a powered box to make setup a little faster, plus I then will be able to take my old FOH power amps and biamp my monitor wedges

So it would appear the bottom line here is you want to switch rigs at the lowest possible cost differential to get a rig that has more cachet and will get you more gigs. Is this likely? It sounds like your customers have pretty fixed budgetary ideas. Do they value a brand name over their bottom line? Will they pry loose a few more $$$$$ for the new rig?

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

So it would appear the bottom line here is you want to switch rigs at the lowest possible cost differential to get a rig that has more cachet and will get you more gigs. Is this likely? It sounds like your customers have pretty fixed budgetary ideas. Do they value a brand name over their bottom line? Will they pry loose a few more $$$$$ for the new rig?

Most of my customers don't know the difference between Nady and Meyer, nothing against them they just aren't sound people. The VR112's have done a great job for us, but I am interested in moving into a larger box to have more scalability. At 10 VR112's per side I'm pretty much at the maximum number you can safely hang, with a larger box it would require less per side and would also allow for significant scalability in the future. Down the road if we were able to move into a tower/roof system with motors we would be able to add even more of the larger boxes (I'm just thinking out loud).

For my customer base, saying that I have Nexo S8, TVI 212, or Peavey VR112 doesn't mean a whole lot (other than maybe a snide remark from a FOH engineer at some point). They are more interested in How many people can you cover outdoors and for what price?...then its on to the follow up questions...staging, lights, etc...

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Most of my customers don't know the difference between Nady and Meyer, nothing against them they just aren't sound people. The VR112's have done a great job for us, but I am interested in moving into a larger box to have more scalability. At 10 VR112's per side I'm pretty much at the maximum number you can safely hang, with a larger box it would require less per side and would also allow for significant scalability in the future. Down the road if we were able to move into a tower/roof system with motors we would be able to add even more of the larger boxes (I'm just thinking out loud).

For my customer base, saying that I have Nexo S8, TVI 212, or Peavey VR112 doesn't mean a whole lot (other than maybe a snide remark from a FOH engineer at some point). They are more interested in How many people can you cover outdoors and for what price?...then its on to the follow up questions...staging, lights, etc...

You made it back around to coverage. That's the key, and why you should be measuring the venues you work in and plug the numbers in the the array prediction programs for the speakers you are considering. If something doesn't look right or you get results that don't seem to jive up with your general experiences, come back and ask some more questions.

What Dick is hinting at: "you expect to make a lateral investment move and get increased functionality/marketability?" Kind of like "Good - Fast - Cheap; pick any two".....

 

[Craig Hauber]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Just what Brandon needs - a hernia, a big loan, and lawsuit when he tries to use more than 2 per side on his lifts and they collapse on the crowd.:lol:

He did ask for "large format"
-Hernias and squished attendees are always included when improperly handled ~~:smile:
(any other dual-15 boxes out there that don't?)

 

[gordon mcgregor]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Brandon go for the TVI if it fits in your market but as has been said it's a sideways with perhaps a slight upward tilt at best. Download the prediction software of the EAW Nexo and jbl kit and see what they can do, I suspect 12 s8 a side on 3 amp channels a side will do what you want, cheap? probably not, improvement as a SYSTEM yes because it is predictable, is a known entity if you want to move out of your current position and it is scalable. Talk to Langston who has made a good case for the 730s in the past and I'm sure has found the limits to the nth degree.

 

[Fernando Lopez]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

I was at a festival last weekend and they had a 12 hang per side of the DAS aero 12a over 4 LX218s per side

Around 7000 people present and the system sounded really nice.

It pounded harder than my NX rig

 

[Jack Keaton]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

The Peavey and TVI will do what he wants, he will just have to upgrade again once he moves to the next level.

 

[Evan Kirkendall]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Whatever happened to "buy once, cry once?"


What seems like a cheaper option now is just going to cost you more money down the road when/if you need to make that next step(again).

I'd seriously consider spending the money now to buy a box that you can grow with for many, many years. And, I'll give you a hint, nothing you're looking at will do that. Look at where you are with your Peavey rig now...



Evan

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

I'd seriously consider spending the money now to buy a box that you can grow with for many, many years. Evan

Yeah, but...

..then he'll be THAT GUY that everybody on these boards bitches and moans about. You know, the guy who brings a line array and a Midas Pro6 to a club gig for club money, making everyone else look bad even if they're the ones with the appropriate gear.

The schitzophrenia on these types of boards never seizes to amaze me: Everyone is basically saying; "remember to always focus primarily on ROI (return on investment)" and then they also say; "don't buy that stuff because it's a lateral move, get something that will allow you to do bigger/better/fancier gigs".

Well, seems to me that the clients he HAS NOW need the type of production he's currently offering. If it makes sense to circulate stock to get slightly better/newer/more reliable gear, then that probably is the right move.

 

[Chris Johnson]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Yeah, but...

..then he'll be THAT GUY that everybody on these boards bitches and moans about. You know, the guy who brings a line array and a Midas Pro6 to a club gig for club money, making everyone else look bad even if they're the ones with the appropriate gear.

The schitzophrenia on these types of boards never seizes to amaze me: Everyone is basically saying; "remember to always focus primarily on ROI (return on investment)" and then they also say; "don't buy that stuff because it's a lateral move, get something that will allow you to do bigger/better/fancier gigs".

Well, seems to me that the clients he HAS NOW need the type of production he's currently offering. If it makes sense to circulate stock to get slightly better/newer/more reliable gear, then that probably is the right move.

Great points.

Obviously this thread has a number of interesting angles (no line array pun intended...).

First off. I think large-format is a vague term. V-dosc is large format, K1 is large format, VTX V25 is large format. I wouldn't consider a line array with a single 12 large format.
Secondly, what is reasonably priced? Here in the UK d&b J is about £6k a box (thats $9k). I think thats reasonably priced considering the performance of the system and potential ROI in the UK/European market. Hence why there is a lot of it around...

But ultimately, the OP has raised some good points about the industry, and the reality is, that few people get to pick their PA based on sound quality alone anymore. Its all down to cost at the end of the day. Business is about ROI. Period. How you achieve that has to do with client relationships, quality of service, local market conditions, etc... but at the end of the day businesses exist to generate profit. Welcome to capitalism.

Uli Behringer has proved that you don't need to cater to the top end of the market to win. In fact, I'd say the opposite is true. There are more people making more money at the lower end of the market.

As an engineer, I always want d&b, Midas, etc... But as a businessman, sometimes db technologies and an M7 are the right solution. Brand snobbery has sent people broke before, and it will do it again.

The question of whether your clients will accept a relatively unknown brand is a good one, and does need to be checked out.

At the end of the day though, as much as it pains me as an Engineer, and as somewhat of a technical purist, people don't buy speakers because they sound good. They buy them because the pack in the truck nice, they rig quick, they cater to clients needs, they have low running costs, they cross rent easily, etc..

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Hi Brandon,

For the money you want to spend, what you have already is about as goods as it gets.

To upgrade, what you need as a minimum is something like 16 x Turbosound Flex (with Lake processing) or d&b V series, with subs to match, but they are out of your price range. Nexo Geo S8 will not do what you want.

To me you have two choices – buy some quality used boxes, EAW, JBL, Meyer etc or some no-name cheap Chinese boxes or something similar.

FWIW I would go down the used path …..

For my cheap shows I went with the T12s that Phil mentioned. They make 136 db (max SPL) and weight 64 lbs, sound very very good and will throw 200ft ... do a shootout with some of the "name" boxes and you will be surprised.
I have not had a play with the 112s but I suspect the T12 will go noticeably louder.

Peter