Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Tim McCulloch

Tim McCulloch

Graduate Student
Jan 11, 2011
3,093
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Wichita KS USA
Based on the number of comments, questions and problems voiced by posters, I've concluded that most "live sound" persons posting in that topic are really frustrated recording guys that dabble in live sound.

I suppose there's nothing wrong with that, but I find it alternately humorous and frustrating to read through.

On a related note, if I try to view that topic in threaded mode, it is now big enough that it locks up my browser. In linear mode it works.

/grumpy guy rant

We now return you to the X32 love-fest, already in progress.

And happy holly-daze....
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Sounds like a personal problem Tim ;) I think I'm going to start allowing more sub-threads to drift out of that enormous thread, but honestly I never believed it would still be going at the pace it is. It's the energizer bunny of threads, totally ridiculous... so long it's unusable, and yet it's still the most active thread on the forum!
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

What grinds my gears is that I can purchase any sound gear I want, but the chances to utilize it in any meaningful and artistic manner are fewer and farther between every year. I seldom encounter "musicians" who have any idea of how to play together without stomping on the changes and each other.

That said..........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy-6Y7KKYyA

Happy Holidaze.
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

It's not all love, but the ratio of fan boys to experienced sound people is pretty high.

The most apparent observation (to me) is how driving down price points increases the number of inexperienced people who can now afford to jump into the pool, so lots of hand holding is required.

One company rep posted that they sold 20k+ units. While not IPHONE numbers those are respectable for a couple grand SKU in the MI industry, very respectable. Some quick back of the envelope math suggests they can afford to take care of any squeaky wheels comfortably, assuming there are not too many such wheels.

There has long been convergence coming between recording and live, especially in the low end, but kind of in the high end too, as big dog tour acts want to have their studio sounds with them live. Mackie kind of started it with a mostly marketing effort to sell their 8 bus (inline recording) mixer as an all things to all customers product. A digital board actually has a better chance to provide enough flexibility to cover both bases comfortably, while I don't know how effectively they accomplish that. There are many subtle differences that digital could manage seamlessly (if they chose to).

JR

PS: While I don't think all 20k customers have posted here yet, some may still be lurking. :) I hope Bennet can monetize the surfeit of eyeballs, now. I don't expect to see another X32 very soon, but one good one can keep the lights on for a while.
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Some of the questions I see posted make me want to shake my head, but we all started somewhere. In my case, that level of experience is only 5 or 6 years ago so it's hard to get too upset. The PC integration seems to be a re-occurring issue, hardware issues aside I'm hoping that upcoming sonar Webinar will quiet a good portion of those questions.

P.S. Haven't tried to do any recording yet, will have to drag the MBP out sometime soon and give it a go. I refuse to believe that it is as difficult as some make it out to be.
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Dave Barnett said:
Frustrated recording guys dabbling in live sound frustrate me too. They wanna take two days to get a drum sound...
Click to expand...
And then the monitors are turned on-the bass player starts playing etc. Then it all starts to fall apart.

Without the separation that the studio offers, it all starts to bleed together. They they start to get lost.
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Dave Barnett said:
Frustrated recording guys dabbling in live sound frustrate me too. They wanna take two days to get a drum sound...
Click to expand...

I had one actually tell me, " we're doing the same thing, mixing audio". He didn't get it when I asked him about the tuned room he always sat in, or the guitarist's amp in one room while the guitarist is in another, with headphones on..Exactly the same...Right!
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

John Roberts said:
One company rep posted that they sold 20k+ units. While not IPHONE numbers those are respectable for a couple grand SKU in the MI industry, very respectable. Some quick back of the envelope math suggests they can afford to take care of any squeaky wheels comfortably, assuming there are not too many such wheels.

PS: While I don't think all 20k customers have posted here yet, some may still be lurking. :) I hope Bennet can monetize the surfeit of eyeballs, now. I don't expect to see another X32 very soon, but one good one can keep the lights on for a while.
Click to expand...

Assuming a US$2000 for valuation per mixer, that's $40m. I'd expect that the model has broke even, and the profits will pay for a decent amount of grease.

It will be useful to see how this all pans out over the next few months. Uli is promising some uber-astounding products from the same technology push at NAMM, so we'll know about those in a couple of weeks. If they can continue support in the current USA/Germany fashion they will mollify most of the critics of their old build and QC problems. A more difficult legacy to overcome will be the "R & D by photocopier" and IP misuse. I still have those memories and I'm not ready to let go just yet, but at some point, who knows?

Your comment about the results of driving down price points into the lower depths of the experience pool is spot on. I think we sussed this out in the Behringer line array thread...
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Kemper Watson said:
I had one actually tell me, " we're doing the same thing, mixing audio". He didn't get it when I asked him about the tuned room he always sat in, or the guitarist's amp in one room while the guitarist is in another, with headphones on..Exactly the same...Right!
Click to expand...


My favorite recording guy mistake is the application of big make up gain at compressor output, especially if it's inserted on a vocal channel (insert pre-aux).

Some recording guys make the transition once they figure out what the can and cannot control, others fight it, and some never can figure out what they can't control. Robert Scovil and VoidMix are both good examples of recording mixers who craft very good live mixes.
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

How about just locking that thread and starting a X32 Love Fest part II topic?
It seems like it's a good board...as long as you don't lean on it or touch it while it's on...
How did the old saying go? You can dress a pig up by putting lipstick on it, but it's still a pig?
Sorry, I don't plan on jumping on the Behringer love fest anytime soon.
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

The only thing I dislike is the same questions asked over and over in that thread, just worded 50 different ways. Most of which would be avoid if people would read manuals and watch the youtube videos. And it turned into a wish list for a while..
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Tim McCulloch said:
My favorite recording guy mistake is the application of big make up gain at compressor output, especially if it's inserted on a vocal channel (insert pre-aux).

Some recording guys make the transition once they figure out what the can and cannot control, others fight it, and some never can figure out what they can't control. Robert Scovil and VoidMix are both good examples of recording mixers who craft very good live mixes.
Click to expand...

I am here to defend my species...:)
I have done both... Bought my first Bogen amp and some homemade 4x12" column speakers with paisley grill cloth in 1971. Then graduated to Shure Vocal Master. While doing a gig in Montreal on my birthday in 1986...while I was partaking in some visual delight... Someone broke into the band car and stole my HK cassette deck..and I bought a Yamaha 4 track cassette deck... Beginning of the end.
For me..as I have explained before, it seems a little strange to me that while all the musicians practiced their instruments, most mixers only push faders at the show. What does that learning curve look like? I am progressing to the point, because of extended studio work, that I can easily visualize EQ, compression slopes, attack/release, how side chains work, instrument fundamentals and harmonics...all things that every other sound person in my world has absolutely no grasp of...not to mention any clue of how to use effects to create useful and convincing spaces for different kinds of music. Hard to set comp settings and effective gates/expanders when you only have showtime to figure it out. IMO, if someone wants to actually be a mix engineer, they need to practice like everybody else. YMMV... But I don't think it will!
I would much rather hire someone who understands how to put the elements of a mix together from experience and teach them how drive the truck and wire the stage. That can be learned on the job. How do you teach someone to mix if you are mixing? I don't even talk to people during the show. And really. The audience doesn't give a hoot who drove the truck and flew the arrays, they want to hear a quality mixed show. Without that I think the rest is just politics and marketing...which I could accept if it provided a superior product, but I have seen zero evidence of this
My motto..."mix is a verb, not a noun."
PS: only heard one show all year where I thought the guy had a handle on the live mix.
 
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Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Nah don't lock it... I want to see if the forum software crashes from more than 256 pages in one thread...

JR (an old recording guy)
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Dave Barnett said:
Frustrated recording guys dabbling in live sound frustrate me too. They wanna take two days to get a drum sound...
Click to expand...

Take it from me, a recording guy, the key is the word "Frustrated" If they didn't learn how to get a great drum sound in a studio environment in just a few minutes it isn't going to happen live either.
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Eric Cagle said:
Take it from me, a recording guy, the key is the word "Frustrated" If they didn't learn how to get a great drum sound in a studio environment in just a few minutes it isn't going to happen live either.
Click to expand...

I think the point is it's an entirely different process. Some people can get a fantastic drum sound in the controlled acoustical environment of a studio, but their techniques will not translate to live sound reinforcement applications. And often vice versa.
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Spenser Hamilton said:
Some of the questions I see posted make me want to shake my head, but we all started somewhere. In my case, that level of experience is only 5 or 6 years ago so it's hard to get too upset. The PC integration seems to be a re-occurring issue, hardware issues aside I'm hoping that upcoming sonar Webinar will quiet a good portion of those questions. <snip>
Click to expand...

Compared to the Behringer forum, the ignorance-level here is blissfully low.

Vinny D'Agostino said:
How about just locking that thread and starting a X32 Love Fest part II topic?
It seems like it's a good board...as long as you don't lean on it or touch it while it's on...
How did the old saying go? You can dress a pig up by putting lipstick on it, but it's still a pig?
Sorry, I don't plan on jumping on the Behringer love fest anytime soon.
Click to expand...

I don't know what kind of glasses you have to wear to be able to view the X32 thread as a fanboy lovefest, but I guess to some, any Behringer-related topic that isn't a bitching-party must be a love-fest.
 
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Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Milt Hathaway said:
I think the point is it's an entirely different process. Some people can get a fantastic drum sound in the controlled acoustical environment of a studio, but their techniques will not translate to live sound reinforcement applications. And often vice versa.
Click to expand...

Well, I disagree. A kick drum is a kick drum. Would you think knowing ways to get a good kick sound in the studio, as well as how to process toms and overhead mics to form a coherent drum mix would NOT help in a live setting? That makes no sense. I use very similar approaches in the studio and live and they work in both settings. You are constructing a frequency and dynamically layered mix...If you have a clear reference you will work towards that...learning how to do something in the studio doesn't keep you from doing it live! Actually, just the opposite. If a mixer can learn many different ways to approach a mix, through trial and error, how is that less advantageous? They train pilots in simulators. Again the problem persists... How do you practice mixing live sound if you only mix on a gig. Kinda unfair to the performer it would seem. Most techniques I use i cant even discuss with local guys as they have never considered things like parallel processing or even deessing or frequency layering.I have heard this perspective for years but it seems the best live mixers are also studio mixers. As long as one learns how to adapt to different mix environments the process is not that different. Again, I have been doing both for decades and mix music every day of the week. Also, I hear excuses like..."I like to keep it sounding live"...Really??? Guess what.. It's already live!!! You making it sound more live makes it sound unproduced and usually leaves instruments out if the mix.
Overall, the worst part of live shows that I see, assuming the band is decent, are mix engineers with no idea how to construct any semblance of a studio quality mix. In 2013, I chalk this up to the same scenario that creates all the crap bands that I often see..no one tells them it needs to be better.

Ok, I feel a little better...thanks!
 
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