Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Milt Hathaway said:
I think the point is it's an entirely different process. Some people can get a fantastic drum sound in the controlled acoustical environment of a studio, but their techniques will not translate to live sound reinforcement applications. And often vice versa.
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It is somewhat different like having isolation and using room sound in the studio or dealing with stage wash and feedback live but the actual mixing techniques are the same. After all 400hz is 400hz etc. I personally think there is a great advantage to spending some time in the recording studio for a live engineer. You really get to hear what all your tools do on some high resolution monitors and you actually get the time to explore the subtleties of what everything really sounds like. As good as some of the newer PA speakers are they don't come close to great studio monitors in a tuned control room as far as resolution.

The other thing is it makes you really appreciate live sound. You don't have to keep listening to the same song or part of a song over and over and over and over and over and over. If you think mixing a terrible band for a 45 minute set is bad wait until you are working with that same band on one song for 3 straight ten hour days. Then you get to work on the other 9 songs on the album. Even working with great bands it will get old.

Another thing is no matter how good you get it in the studio it will never sound as good as it can live. Think about what everyone is playing back on. Mixing a fantastic A player band outside on a beautiful sunny day through a state of the art system with thousands of watts of sub just cruising........That is as close to engineering heaven as it gets. That is why I do this.
 
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Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

You could always have the worst(best?) of both worlds and do live broadcast!

Anyways, there is no need to belittle people who are learning a new craft. We are all constantly learning and becoming better... to some artists the quality of the mix is a lower priority than simply having a known quantity behind the board.... I propose that those are generally the artists/clients you don't really want to work for anyway.
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Per Søvik said:
Compared to the Behringer forum, the ignorance-level here is blissfully low.



I don't know what kind of glasses you have to wear to be able to view the X32 thread as a fanboy lovefest, but I guess to some, any Behringer-related topic that isn't a bitching-party must be a love-fest.
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Perhaps because...

Per Søvik said:
Compared to the Behringer forum, the ignorance-level here is blissfully low.
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How many product designs of your's personally have been copied?

This is not idle mindless bitching but the logical result from decades of actual industry experience. I have tried hard to be gracious and fair. You don't want to know how I really feel. :-(

You are a product of your personal experience and me mine.

JR
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Mike Brown said:
You could always have the worst(best?) of both worlds and do live broadcast!

Anyways, there is no need to belittle people who are learning a new craft. We are all constantly learning and becoming better... to some artists the quality of the mix is a lower priority than simply having a known quantity behind the board.... I propose that those are generally the artists/clients you don't really want to work for anyway.
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I know a little about both worlds and yes, it is all audio but live sound is a little like MASH surgery. You do what you must to save the patient's life, but within the time constraints available. Just like the survival rate from MASH surgery has vastly improved in recent years, so has live sound.

Broadcast is a hybrid of live sound where you have a little more control over your environment, but big event broadcast is indistinguishable from live sound, but with more witnesses.

JR
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

John Roberts said:
This is not idle mindless bitching but the logical result from decades of actual industry experience. I have tried hard to be gracious and fair. You don't want to know how I really feel. :-(

You are a product of your personal experience and me mine.

JR
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OK, so if anybody has reason to be bitching all the time, it's you. But you don't. You are insightfull, informed, helpfull, gracious etc. etc.

My comment was directed at someone else entirely, and at a comment about the thread that I found offensive to anybody that frequent the forum and the thread out of genuine interest in the subject at hand. OK, some people believe that buing Behringer is plain wrong, and I can understand the sentiment, but for many of us, sometimes Behringer products is what we can afford and in this case we are certainly not buying a rip-off product.
If I'm to take a moral stance with my purchasing, and I often do, the goings on in the audio world doesn't stir much reaction from my personal Jiminy Cricket. If it is legal for me to buy, I will, and save my conciensious buying decisions to boycotting those who run garment sweat shops or grow bio-diesel crops in starving countries. Others can boycott Behringer if they wish, but don't blame the non-bitchers for not bitching enough.
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

John Roberts said:
I know a little about both worlds and yes, it is all audio but live sound is a little like MASH surgery. You do what you must to save the patient's life, but within the time constraints available. Just like the survival rate from MASH surgery has vastly improved in recent years, so has live sound.

Broadcast is a hybrid of live sound where you have a little more control over your environment, but big event broadcast is indistinguishable from live sound, but with more witnesses.

JR
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Can I amputate the entire guitar player? :lol:

Except that those witnesses are all listening on vastly different, generally uncalibrated (and generally awful) playback systems at different volumes (equal loudness countours) in different acoustical spaces in different formats (mono, stereo, 5.1) with different encoding/decoding algorithms (often times stacked on top of each other). etc etc etc

My friend was just telling me how much he enjoyed watching football broadcasts in 5.1.... going on and on about the great sense of spaciousness. It's like you are at the game!

So i went over to his house to experience this and he was receiving a proper 5.1 mix..... except that his receiver/decoder was set to "Mono".... go figure!
 
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Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Per Søvik said:
OK, so if anybody has reason to be bitching all the time, it's you. But you don't. You are insightfull, informed, helpfull, gracious etc. etc.

My comment was directed at someone else entirely, and at a comment about the thread that I found offensive to anybody that frequent the forum and the thread out of genuine interest in the subject at hand. OK, some people believe that buing Behringer is plain wrong, and I can understand the sentiment, but for many of us, sometimes Behringer products is what we can afford and in this case we are certainly not buying a rip-off product.
If I'm to take a moral stance with my purchasing, and I often do, the goings on in the audio world doesn't stir much reaction from my personal Jiminy Cricket. If it is legal for me to buy, I will, and save my conciensious buying decisions to boycotting those who run garment sweat shops or grow bio-diesel crops in starving countries. Others can boycott Behringer if they wish, but don't blame the non-bitchers for not bitching enough.
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If you have a problem with an individual that's what PMs are for.

Making vague complaints about posting behavior and attitudes on the WWW is about as productive as making new years resolutions to lose weight.

We do best when post about things we know, that actually answer questions asked.... or are amusing. While many accomplish the latter while attempting the former.

Merry christmas and happy new years folks...

JR
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

John Roberts said:
I know a little about both worlds and yes, it is all audio but live sound is a little like MASH surgery. You do what you must to save the patient's life, but within the time constraints available.

JR
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Totally agree. All the more reason to have an intimate knowledge of all the tools at your disposal. Surgeons intern for years before they start cutting people.
Also, this idea is in many live mixers minds as the crux of their job, keeping bad things from happening...and they are satisfied with that level of competence. IMO, in 2013, if a system or setup can't get through a set without chaos then there are bigger problems afoot.
 
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Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Per Søvik said:
OK, so if anybody has reason to be bitching all the time, it's you. But you don't. You are insightfull, informed, helpfull, gracious etc. etc.

My comment was directed at someone else entirely, and at a comment about the thread that I found offensive to anybody that frequent the forum and the thread out of genuine interest in the subject at hand. OK, some people believe that buing Behringer is plain wrong, and I can understand the sentiment, but for many of us, sometimes Behringer products is what we can afford and in this case we are certainly not buying a rip-off product.
If I'm to take a moral stance with my purchasing, and I often do, the goings on in the audio world doesn't stir much reaction from my personal Jiminy Cricket. If it is legal for me to buy, I will, and save my conciensious buying decisions to boycotting those who run garment sweat shops or grow bio-diesel crops in starving countries. Others can boycott Behringer if they wish, but don't blame the non-bitchers for not bitching enough.
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This discussion seems to be a parellel of passing racism along to innocent children. Doesn't really further the cause.
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

John Roberts said:
wow... Down with racism....

I'm sorry....
JR
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Lol! My point is that reading the "B" threads there is a lot of us with past experience with their products, both bad and good..and surprising to me most of the negative stuff comes from many who are not in a position to use these relatively lower end products, and probably haven't been for decades... And to pass this old prejudice along to younger users who will never be able to afford a $20k console doesn't help them. I get upset when I feel I am being held responsible for events that happened before I was involved.
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Per Søvik said:
My comment was directed at someone else entirely, and at a comment about the thread that I found offensive to anybody that frequent the forum and the thread out of genuine interest in the subject at hand. OK, some people believe that buing Behringer is plain wrong, and I can understand the sentiment, but for many of us, sometimes Behringer products is what we can afford and in this case we are certainly not buying a rip-off product.
If I'm to take a moral stance with my purchasing, and I often do, the goings on in the audio world doesn't stir much reaction from my personal Jiminy Cricket. If it is legal for me to buy, I will, and save my conciensious buying decisions to boycotting those who run garment sweat shops or grow bio-diesel crops in starving countries. Others can boycott Behringer if they wish, but don't blame the non-bitchers for not bitching enough.
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Is all this in response to my *Love Fest* comment? really?
If you read the OP (original post) you will see that someone else called the topic a love fest.....I simply added to it, because it was funny...
If it is in response to me calling the new X32 a pig dressed in lipstick? well yeah, it's my opinion of the product....and I am entitled to it, just as you are entitled to your opinion of it.

Take a look at the topic *defective X32* in the JV forum, this is why I claim that it is still the same old Behringer product.
Yes, there customer service appears to be much better (at least in response to issues with this particular product) but again I say, look at the topic and look at the issues posted.

If you were not reffering to me, then please disregard this post and have a nice day.
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Vinny D'Agostino said:
Is all this in response to my *Love Fest* comment? really?
If you read the OP (original post) you will see that someone else called the topic a love fest.....I simply added to it, because it was funny...
If it is in response to me calling the new X32 a pig dressed in lipstick? well yeah, it's my opinion of the product....and I am entitled to it, just as you are entitled to your opinion of it.

Take a look at the topic *defective X32* in the JV forum, this is why I claim that it is still the same old Behringer product.
Yes, there customer service appears to be much better (at least in response to issues with this particular product) but again I say, look at the topic and look at the issues posted.

If you were not reffering to me, then please disregard this post and have a nice day.
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Yes and no, your comment wasn't the only one I attempted to address, the attitude that all of us that doesn't bitch about Behringer all the time must be a bunch of fan boy is what I'm getting at. Yes the thread contains praise, but also complaint and critisim in ample amount, so it is definitely not a love fest. Of course there are failures, to have the same initial fault rate as some of the more distinguished marques, you would probably need to have a couple of hundred horror stories about the X32, and so far it doesn't look like it. Obviously, the lower price point have attracted the less experienced, and the retail model means that unlike the expensive stuff, you don't have a tech at hand or the rep's phone number at hand, so after sale service is going to be tricky at times. Is it better or worse than Behringer products of the past? I have no idea, all my Behringer stuff is still working despite some of it being quite old by now.
I have no problem with people expressing their opinion, just like I will express my opinion. If I believe you are wrong, I'll say so, just as I expect to be told that I'm wrong by the ones that don't share my view. forum: public meeting place for open discussion
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

John Roberts said:
If you have a problem with an individual that's what PMs are for.

Making vague complaints about posting behavior and attitudes on the WWW is about as productive as making new years resolutions to lose weight.
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I don't have a problem with any individuals, their posting behaviour and attitudes. I will counter attitudes that I thoroughly disagree with, that's it.

EDIT: Then again, maybe I should respect the topic of this thread ;)~;-)~:wink:
 
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It could be said on any of these threads but I hope all this new equipment performs as expected because the certainty of it being provided for me on a show without the financial clout to exclude certain equipment approaches unity.

So I am going to have to deal with it whether I want to or not.

And my old standby method of hitting bypass on rack equipment I don't like isn't going to help when what is provided is is the board or speaker system.
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Jay Barracato said:
It could be said on any of these threads but I hope all this new equipment performs as expected because the certainty of it being provided for me on a show without the financial clout to exclude certain equipment approaches unity.

So I am going to have to deal with it whether I want to or not.

And my old standby method of hitting bypass on rack equipment I don't like isn't going to help when what is provided is is the board or speaker system.
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That is definitely a valid point, if the X32 should turn out to be a crappy long-term performer after it has found the way into thousands of budget installs, it is going to be a pain in the arse not only for the people that decided to take the risk, but for a lot of innocent techs that will have their days ruined and will only have the meagre satisfaction of saying "told you so".
Hopefully, Behringer will adopt a servicing policy that allows in-situ servicing by independent service engineers and will make parts available as and when needed.
 
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

John Chiara said:
Lol! My point is that reading the "B" threads there is a lot of us with past experience with their products, both bad and good..and surprising to me most of the negative stuff comes from many who are not in a position to use these relatively lower end products, and probably haven't been for decades... And to pass this old prejudice along to younger users who will never be able to afford a $20k console doesn't help them. I get upset when I feel I am being held responsible for events that happened before I was involved.
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Racism and prejudice are strong words. It isn't prejudice if you form opinions based on first hand experience. I have seen some subtle racism associated with discussions about Chinese manufacturing, and having actually traveled to China I can speak about that subject also from my first hand experience. If anything I have generally been a defender of Chinese manufacturing, even defending one Chinese contract manufacturer that Uli disparaged, because my personal experience with that actual vendor didn't agree with his.
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This actual thread strikes me as more about some of the regulars waxing nostalgic for the days when it was mostly a small group of professionals here taking to the other professionals here and the great unwashed masses were over on the LAB asking their newbie questions. Bennet said "forums for audio professionals run by audio professionals" at the top of the page. Not " forums for newbies looking for new product hand holding sessions" .

The X-32 thread happened here by accident when all the interest in the unshipped product cluttered up Uli's promotional Q & A thread. The breaking out of the X-32 thread was meant to improve the S/N of the forum. I don't think anybody anticipated the interest. This X-32 new product question thread "should" have occurred on a Behringer hosted factory support forum but apparently people got better answers here, and the rest is history.

I am happy for Bennet to get all this traffic (if he wants it).

I have never been in a position to buy any of this gear... however i did design and market lots of similar gear in my old day job (some very similar), so my first hand experience goes well beyond just using the gear. I often try to share my insights into the behind the scenes machinations of the industry to other professionals who don't know that side of the story.

You guys could block all of my posts if you don't care for my perspective.

JR
 
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