Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

[Jeff Babcock]

Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

I find it hard to accept that any manufacturer with a terrible track record, questionable ethics, and a history of disdain should be able to change that with one product, in less than a year, with nothing to go but idle promises.

Stuart, I would have found it very hard to accept too, but have seen things like the enormous investments in manufacturing facilities, new warranty program, new support model and service centers, etc. These are hardly insignificant moves. Frankly to claim that they are relying on idle promises suggests your opinion is largely fueled on dated information. I certainly won't become a Behringer fanboy, but I cannot deny that they are trying pretty hard to change, and I must commend that effort.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Stuart, I would have found it very hard to accept too, but have seen things like the enormous investments in manufacturing facilities,

Building a factory in China, and keeping that factory up to date with modern assembly equipment, is arguably not done in some altruistic effort to help consumers. it is to maintain a competitive price distance from other value manufacturers who are dependent on CMs for low cost assembly. We have discussed this in passing before when it was first spun up as a customer benefit. IMO the primary benefit goes to the company, while the consumer benefits indirectly from lower cost as long as it doesn't drive other low cost competitors out of the market. Unlikely to lose many more of them at this late date but he needs to protect his market (price) position from the next Behringer. The message between the lines to competition, is look at how much money I am able to spend... be very afraid.

new warranty program, new support model and service centers, etc.

One might argue why did it take so long? These seem pretty much a basic requirement to support customers as they have been accustomed to from other manufacturers. Of course doing it is better than not doing it. Not doing it for so many years was useful to help maintain a cost advantage over full service manufacturers, while growing market share based on price at POS. Entry level consumers are not know for a long term view when making purchase decisions.

These are hardly insignificant moves. Frankly to claim that they are relying on idle promises suggests your opinion is largely fueled on dated information. I certainly won't become a Behringer fanboy, but I cannot deny that they are trying pretty hard to change, and I must commend that effort.

Yes... If they continue to walk their talk, the next generation of consumers coming up now, will only know this new improved Behringer. It is what it is. Already many feel that the old-timers are horribly out of step. This it the cycle of life and maturation of markets.

JR

 

[Nick Simon]

Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Look guys, I'm just a good -ol- boy that mixes sound for a HoW. I'm certainly no fanboy of Behringer, and in the past have put it below Peavey equipment (which I currently use and have so in the past, because it was, what it was) in terms of quailty, etc. So when we decided to get a system for the new building, through a reputable HoW contracting firm, and they spec'ed out an X-32, I was extremely skeptical. I had hoped for An A&H or even an LS9, or similar. I appreciate ALL the comments, pro and con, and within a month I will be able to jump in and try to learn how to mix on this thing. I want to thank you guys for giving me an education on a lot of things I had never even considered, even though I have been mixing sound on and off for a couple-three decades, just never on any type quality or advanced equipment. I probably don't even belong anywhere near these forums, but I have found a wealth of information here. And I truly hope some of you don't mind if I pick your brain from time to time to help me out of a jam. I'm not some young whipper snapper that just started recording samples of stuff off of a computer. I've been working with and around bands since I was a teenager, even spending a couple years on the road with a regional touring act in the late 70's (at least what I remember of it..lol) The technological advancements since that time have been astounding. So just imagine going from there to today is where I basically am, moving from the existing equipment to the X-32 and associated new line array, etc.

Again thanks!

 

[drew gandy]

Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Had my X32 for a few months now. 2 shows last week, recorded 32 tracks via FW to an Old MacBook with reaper and 2 tr to a stick. Recordings sound great. Shows sounded great.

Must not have been that old. I was hoping to use one of my work horse Pismo machines with it but they won't run anything newer than 10.4.11 which isn't new enough for the Behringer drivers. But, I found recording to a 2010 mbp with Logic 8 to be easy enough.
As far as this thread goes, everything in life is some kind of bargain. You gauge the trade offs and make your deal and then move on. Sometimes you get the chance to reflect on your decision. I for one appreciate the features/price ratio for this mixer and I say "it's about time".

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

---(clip) everything in life is some kind of bargain. You gauge the trade offs and make your deal and then move on. Sometimes you get the chance to reflect on your decision. I for one appreciate the features/price ratio for this mixer and I say "it's about time".

It seems a little lost in this discussion that digital consoles have been around for decades, while back in the '90s there were a lot more zeros on the price tag.

This product is the convergence of continuing price decreases in the underlying technology, and Behringer gambling that they could turn digital consoles into a higher volume, more mainstream product than they were. Low price has always been dependent on higher manufacturing volumes, while I also see some cost effective engineering, like rolling their own motor-faders.

I do not mean to diminish the engineering effort, this was not trivial, but lets not ignore that other pioneers had paved the way. It is always easier to be the same while cheaper, than going where no one ever was, and hoping for an undeveloped market to appear. This market was ripe for anybody to hit the lower very attractive price point, so ripe that even a Behringer can sell a pile of product. Meaning no disrespect, just stating the obvious. Many customers are buying these despite the brand not because of it, due to the compelling price. I have long seen this dynamic in markets. If the price is good enough consumers can ignore many things. (I even reduced this to a fixed percentage for the build in China vs. US decision, that no consumer actually likes.).

A fair question to ask is why didn't one of the more capable established players (like Yamaha) do this first. I can't answer. They were apparently happy to run on automatic and keep earning dividends on their significant early capital investment in the technology. They did not make a profit in the early days.

I don't expect Behringer to be alone at this new lower price point forever, so they need to make hay while they can. I expect they kept some fat in even that low price. That said I don't see anybody under cutting them on price any time soon.

Interesting times.

JR

PS: I have been aware of more than one digital console platform that was not brought to market because the price was not right and/or the market wasn't trusted to support finishing the product using a specific (value) brand. Now that a market has been proved to exist for that price point, these programs may get dusted off, or not (some approaches are already obsolete or dated technology). I have been out of these trenches for over a decade so my first hand knowledge is incomplete.

 

[Robert "VOiD" Caprio]

Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Robert Scovil and VoidMix are both good examples of recording mixers who craft very good live mixes.

Thanks Tim!

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Is it lost on everyone else that the complaint thread about how long the (blah blah blah) thread is, is now five pages?

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Is it lost on everyone else that the complaint thread about how long the (blah blah blah) thread is, is now five pages?

I can keep whining for a good while.....

But when did the Clippers become the LA team to beat? FWIW the highly regarded Clipper bench looks like a Laker's reunion picnic.

JR

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

It seems a little lost in this discussion that digital consoles have been around for decades, while back in the '90s there were a lot more zeros on the price tag.
<snip>

It is easy to forget that this is not Behringer's first digital mixer. Either the market or Behringer or both weren't quite ready when the ddx3216 came out a decade ago, but it is not hard to imagine that the process leading to the X32 have been going on inside Behringer during the last decade both in terms of developing the original concept and also developing their digital prowess with the other digital products that have been around for a while.

A fair question to ask is why didn't one of the more capable established players (like Yamaha) do this first. I can't answer. They were apparently happy to run on automatic and keep earning dividends on their significant early capital investment in the technology. They did not make a profit in the early days.

I guess this is typical in a lot of markets, that the early high price manufacturers keep doing their thing while the mass-market manufacturers slowly catch up as the technology advances to the point where further advancement becomes rather pointless, at which point the cheap stuff catches up rather quickly. If 1000 megapixel cameras had been relevant, Kodak would probably still be in there with the pro cameras, and if 768 kHz was relevant for sound we would still be a few years away from viable low cost competitors.

 

[Rob Timmerman]

Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

It is easy to forget that this is not Behringer's first digital mixer. Either the market or Behringer or both weren't quite ready when the ddx3216 came out a decade ago, but it is not hard to imagine that the process leading to the X32 have been going on inside Behringer during the last decade both in terms of developing the original concept and also developing their digital prowess with the other digital products that have been around for a while.

IIRC, one of the reasons that the DDX3216 didn't do as well as it might have was its failure to meet certain EMC requirements for the US market, which ultimately led to the product not being available for sale in the US.

 

[Mike Diack]

Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

If the X32 was free, I wouldn't have one. If I do not trust the gear to work, price does not matter. If folks here want to line up for their products, thats all well and fine but I find it amusing that all it took was a little BS from Uli on the board, a little PR, and one unknown, unproven, low end piece of hardware to make folks change their attitudes.

I consider Behringer to have the same:

marketing prowess as Bose.
integrity as Monster.
quality as Nady.
reliability as BGW.
desirability as....well nothing I can think of.

Although my opinion of Behringer has not changed one iota since the infamous thread started, my professional respect for some members has. I wear "No Behringer anywhere in my system ever" as a matter of pride, and that isn't changing. I am totally shocked at the acceptance they seem to be enjoying.

I wish the best to all those that gambled their money on an X32. I won't be buying one for any price. Period.

This just took me back 40+ years to conversations amongst my father and his contemporaries.
The subject was Japanese cars. We all know how that one ended.
M

 

[Jordan Lahr]

Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

This just took me back 40+ years to conversations amongst my father and his contemporaries.
The subject was Japanese cars. We all know how that one ended.
M

Its also why more touring shows (theater haven't seen many concerts) are picking up younger guys. No point trying to convince someone who will not be convinced that the console that cost 5 grand will do the same thing that the 30 grand console will do.

All yall are complaining about either the x32 or some other digital console, try working with an 02r as a live theater type setting with no recording needed.

 

[Spenser Hamilton]

Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Its also why more touring shows (theater haven't seen many concerts) are picking up younger guys. No point trying to convince someone who will not be convinced that the console that cost 5 grand will do the same thing that the 30 grand console will do.

All yall are complaining about either the x32 or some other digital console, try working with an 02r as a live theater type setting with no recording needed.

Original 02R? POS those be. Still, if you can't get a passable mix on that, time for a career change.

 

[Jordan Lahr]

Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

lol never said I couldn't its just a PITA

 

[Spenser Hamilton]

Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

lol never said I couldn't its just a PITA

Monochrome displays just sound better though... :lol:

 

[Mike Brown]

Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

Its also why more touring shows (theater haven't seen many concerts) are picking up younger guys. No point trying to convince someone who will not be convinced that the console that cost 5 grand will do the same thing that the 30 grand console will do.

All yall are complaining about either the x32 or some other digital console, try working with an 02r as a live theater type setting with no recording needed.

The concert/performance isn't about the audio engineer's console preference. :lol:

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread

This just took me back 40+ years to conversations amongst my father and his contemporaries.
The subject was Japanese cars. We all know how that one ended.
M

Or we could set the way-back machine for a few hundred years and whine about the shoddy, low quality, knock-offs of European produscts coming from the American colonies.

I don't expect the final chapter has been written about the Japanese cars just yet. In the US at least they seem pretty competitive against a bailed out, subsidized, domestic industry. First when the US government tried to squash imports with high duties, the Japanese car companies responded with more expensive upscale models so the tariffs wouldn't make them uncompetitive (how did that strategy work out?).

But yes, your basic point that this is a natural progression where capital pursues the highest return when free to cross borders (aka free trade) is valid. So manufacturing investment will occur where it earns the best return, i.e. in low labor cost regions. The car makers have been building automobile factories in Africa for a decade or more. First stage is final assembly of imported components, but they are probably already building transmissions and other major components there by now.

Hard to imagine that this hasn't run it's full course by now, but it hasn't. Technology advances keep driving the labor content fraction of manufactured hard goods to a smaller and smaller percentage. A new manufacturing trend using 3D printing to fabricate parts without tooling could further alter the industrial evolution. Access to low cost energy and raw materials will always remain a significant input cost.

JR