Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
- Thread starter Tim McCulloch
- Start date
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
In a sense, that's part of it. My actual complaint deals with the recording side and some long-held personal perspectives that more clearly define the 2 related, but different roles.
I'm all ears about what the X32 can and cannot do in LIVE AUDIO. While I don't approve of Behringer's previous IP theft and consider that sufficient reason to never *personally* purchase another of their products, I also am tasked with making a profit for my employer and as such, would potentially consider the X32. What I don't give a damn about is recording, DAW interfacing issues, getting program "A" to talk to the desk and having recall-able mixing automation. Again, while related, these tasks are not responsible for the outcome of a live band, voice presentation or other situation where the primary focus is on the audience witnessing an actual performance of (mostly) human-performed art.
If the recording shit was eliminated from the thread it would be half as long and only 1/3 as redundant.
And herein lies the origin of my use of the phrase "love fest." A now 'retired from active participation' forum member sent me an email wondering why people were "lining up to suck Uli's dick." I think love fest sounds better. Apparently, though, to be a part of the love requires a disregard for IP theft, historically questionable QC and parts sourcing, and acceptance of "disposable hardware" as a business model. In keeping with your observations about consumer purchasing behavior, though, I find the X32 to be entirely consistent. "I got my mixer cheap and that's all that matters."
And put you on my iggy list? Naw, that's far too easy.... and besides, other than politics we tend to agree on most everything else.
In a sense, that's part of it. My actual complaint deals with the recording side and some long-held personal perspectives that more clearly define the 2 related, but different roles.
I'm all ears about what the X32 can and cannot do in LIVE AUDIO. While I don't approve of Behringer's previous IP theft and consider that sufficient reason to never *personally* purchase another of their products, I also am tasked with making a profit for my employer and as such, would potentially consider the X32. What I don't give a damn about is recording, DAW interfacing issues, getting program "A" to talk to the desk and having recall-able mixing automation. Again, while related, these tasks are not responsible for the outcome of a live band, voice presentation or other situation where the primary focus is on the audience witnessing an actual performance of (mostly) human-performed art.
If the recording shit was eliminated from the thread it would be half as long and only 1/3 as redundant.
And herein lies the origin of my use of the phrase "love fest." A now 'retired from active participation' forum member sent me an email wondering why people were "lining up to suck Uli's dick." I think love fest sounds better. Apparently, though, to be a part of the love requires a disregard for IP theft, historically questionable QC and parts sourcing, and acceptance of "disposable hardware" as a business model. In keeping with your observations about consumer purchasing behavior, though, I find the X32 to be entirely consistent. "I got my mixer cheap and that's all that matters."
And put you on my iggy list? Naw, that's far too easy.... and besides, other than politics we tend to agree on most everything else.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
The fact that less than pro buyers are using the X32 for recording and reporting all the problems with that is normal with
PC - Interface relations! I was just yesterday fighting with my MOTU FW setup trying to get an obviously existing input to show in my software program.. You know, the same program that it has worked with for years. If I was advising recording folks.. If you can live with the feature set... Buy a Mac with FW, get a copy of Reaper and shut up.
The fact that less than pro buyers are using the X32 for recording and reporting all the problems with that is normal with
PC - Interface relations! I was just yesterday fighting with my MOTU FW setup trying to get an obviously existing input to show in my software program.. You know, the same program that it has worked with for years. If I was advising recording folks.. If you can live with the feature set... Buy a Mac with FW, get a copy of Reaper and shut up.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
Get pro active Tim. Start your own "X32 strictly as a live board and we don't want to hear about any of that recording crap." thread. There is already a "Defective X32!!" thread that has some good info.
Get pro active Tim. Start your own "X32 strictly as a live board and we don't want to hear about any of that recording crap." thread. There is already a "Defective X32!!" thread that has some good info.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
But those events are not relegated to the past. There's the X-16, which seems to be a direct crib of the Mackie DL-1608, or the Eurolive B-205D which is a xerox copy of the Mackie SRM-150, it seems like photocopy R&D is alive and well.
But those events are not relegated to the past. There's the X-16, which seems to be a direct crib of the Mackie DL-1608, or the Eurolive B-205D which is a xerox copy of the Mackie SRM-150, it seems like photocopy R&D is alive and well.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
Since I decided long ago to NEVER own another Behringer anything, I have no dog in this fight. I have a number of dead ADA8000 preamps sitting in my shop. They failed after being mounted once in a preamp rack that was babied and survived only a few years. They were replaced by Presonus D8's in the same rack which have already lasted longer than the Behringers.
Whenever I see Behringer in use, my first thought is that something took the lowest road possible hoping for the best. Even if the X32 does sound better than my 01v96s (and I have no idea since I don't use an X32) I don't want one. I know that when I power on the Yamaha, it will in all likelyhood work. I cannot say the same about any Behringer gear. (I confess that two years ago I became concerned about the age of my 01v96 and bought a backup when one became available for a low price. I have carried it to many shows as my just-in-case console. I believe it will die from being carried around before the main console fails in action though.)
If the X32 was free, I wouldn't have one. If I do not trust the gear to work, price does not matter. If folks here want to line up for their products, thats all well and fine but I find it amusing that all it took was a little BS from Uli on the board, a little PR, and one unknown, unproven, low end piece of hardware to make folks change their attitudes.
I consider Behringer to have the same:
marketing prowess as Bose.
integrity as Monster.
quality as Nady.
reliability as BGW.
desirability as....well nothing I can think of.
Although my opinion of Behringer has not changed one iota since the infamous thread started, my professional respect for some members has. I wear "No Behringer anywhere in my system ever" as a matter of pride, and that isn't changing. I am totally shocked at the acceptance they seem to be enjoying.
I wish the best to all those that gambled their money on an X32. I won't be buying one for any price. Period.
Since I decided long ago to NEVER own another Behringer anything, I have no dog in this fight. I have a number of dead ADA8000 preamps sitting in my shop. They failed after being mounted once in a preamp rack that was babied and survived only a few years. They were replaced by Presonus D8's in the same rack which have already lasted longer than the Behringers.
Whenever I see Behringer in use, my first thought is that something took the lowest road possible hoping for the best. Even if the X32 does sound better than my 01v96s (and I have no idea since I don't use an X32) I don't want one. I know that when I power on the Yamaha, it will in all likelyhood work. I cannot say the same about any Behringer gear. (I confess that two years ago I became concerned about the age of my 01v96 and bought a backup when one became available for a low price. I have carried it to many shows as my just-in-case console. I believe it will die from being carried around before the main console fails in action though.)
If the X32 was free, I wouldn't have one. If I do not trust the gear to work, price does not matter. If folks here want to line up for their products, thats all well and fine but I find it amusing that all it took was a little BS from Uli on the board, a little PR, and one unknown, unproven, low end piece of hardware to make folks change their attitudes.
I consider Behringer to have the same:
marketing prowess as Bose.
integrity as Monster.
quality as Nady.
reliability as BGW.
desirability as....well nothing I can think of.
Although my opinion of Behringer has not changed one iota since the infamous thread started, my professional respect for some members has. I wear "No Behringer anywhere in my system ever" as a matter of pride, and that isn't changing. I am totally shocked at the acceptance they seem to be enjoying.
I wish the best to all those that gambled their money on an X32. I won't be buying one for any price. Period.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
have you used one? after just gig, it knocked the lower end yamahas off my list. if its reliability proves to be questionable, that would be unfortunate, of course
have you used one? after just gig, it knocked the lower end yamahas off my list. if its reliability proves to be questionable, that would be unfortunate, of course
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
No, and don't plan to. It is not even a passing thought. If I ever move up (and I really don't need to at this point) it will be to a newer Yamaha.
No, and don't plan to. It is not even a passing thought. If I ever move up (and I really don't need to at this point) it will be to a newer Yamaha.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
Stuart, there's plenty of us out there that are taking a wait and see approach with the X32. Let others be the guinea pigs and see if the console remains reliable. In the meantime, there are good (albiet costlier) alternatives worth using.
Stuart, there's plenty of us out there that are taking a wait and see approach with the X32. Let others be the guinea pigs and see if the console remains reliable. In the meantime, there are good (albiet costlier) alternatives worth using.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
Not a specific but general observation, I wondered where all the haters disappeared to when Uli joined this (and other) forums to promote himself and his company. Apparently it is a little different engaging the man one on one, than sniping at someone who doesn't answer. Also for many working inside the industry it is inappropriate to take cheap shots at a competitor. Even if the shots are more true than false. You don't tug on superman's cape, Uli is clearly a powerful person in the industry so someone a small company would rather not get his attention..
I am personally impressed by Uli putting himself out there, and he has been very good at talking the talk. Probably a skill set acquired from years of writing his own ad copy as a small company owner. It is not unusual for a company after it has gained scale and stature to evolve, at least enough to stay out of court over blatant misbehavior (and also being able to afford better lawyers to win a few cases).
I challenged Uli every time he posted something that I felt was erroneous. There is too much subtle spin to engage every minor exaggeration and he was smart to not argue with me and draw more attention to my posts, letting them roll off into the old post dead bit bucket. I have no desire to make his thread about me, so I didn't press.
For new value customers just starting out, Behringer is probably as a good a choice as any other similar value product. Just like any company some products will be better than others. As long as he walks his new talk he deserves an opportunity to compete fairly like anybody else. It is not our responsibility to do karma's work. If he needs to pay for past sins, he will, or not with or without our help. That said we don't have to acquiesce to history being rewritten when we know better.
JR
Not a specific but general observation, I wondered where all the haters disappeared to when Uli joined this (and other) forums to promote himself and his company. Apparently it is a little different engaging the man one on one, than sniping at someone who doesn't answer. Also for many working inside the industry it is inappropriate to take cheap shots at a competitor. Even if the shots are more true than false. You don't tug on superman's cape, Uli is clearly a powerful person in the industry so someone a small company would rather not get his attention..
Bose is a very effective marketer. It is hard to be too critical of people doing their job so well. I personally find one new ad campaign a little irritating because it looks to me like they have co-opted a real technical term that actually means something, to use loosley in an advertising campaign (waveguides). Note: Waveguides are arguably used in transmission line baffles, whether the Bose consumer boxes are true transmission line wave guides, is a debate for another time and place. I can safely speculate about how many of their consumers have a clue about what wave guides are.
That seems a tough standard to limbo down under, if the gossip about monster is accurate. I wouldn't accuse Uli of targeting the high price end of any product category, at least in his namesake brand.
Not to repeat myself but quality is often incorrectly confused with features. Behringer does seem solidly positioned for the value segment, not unlike Nady while Behringer appears to be more successful.
Wow what do you have against BGW? Brian Wachner (RIP) did some some good design work, while there was one old amp series with white faceplates(?) that were not very robust. Not the first amp company to have a problem puppy in the litter. A better amp related zing might be "same reliability as Phase Linear", while I suspect, and evidence suggests that Behringer already does better than Phase linear, and has promised to do better in the future.
This is a common problem for value products and comes with the territory. People only buy them because they are low cost. After they can afford to buy more expensive gear they usually do, not wanting to be reminded of things like their own lower skills as a beginner, etc. Success in the value segment, poisons the brand for high end users. The implicit connection with higher end brands Uli bought, helps make future value customers think they are getting more for their money from the low brand, and gives those who have moved onward and upward higher brands to aspire to.
I am personally impressed by Uli putting himself out there, and he has been very good at talking the talk. Probably a skill set acquired from years of writing his own ad copy as a small company owner. It is not unusual for a company after it has gained scale and stature to evolve, at least enough to stay out of court over blatant misbehavior (and also being able to afford better lawyers to win a few cases).
I challenged Uli every time he posted something that I felt was erroneous. There is too much subtle spin to engage every minor exaggeration and he was smart to not argue with me and draw more attention to my posts, letting them roll off into the old post dead bit bucket. I have no desire to make his thread about me, so I didn't press.
For new value customers just starting out, Behringer is probably as a good a choice as any other similar value product. Just like any company some products will be better than others. As long as he walks his new talk he deserves an opportunity to compete fairly like anybody else. It is not our responsibility to do karma's work. If he needs to pay for past sins, he will, or not with or without our help. That said we don't have to acquiesce to history being rewritten when we know better.
JR
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
I admit I have use a few (very few) pieces of Behringer gear over the years. My first pieces were the original ones made in Germany. Never had an issue with those while I owned them.
In the install world we used only 2 pieces. The DCX2496 (when they were working) were a decent piece of gear for the money. But in an install situation-the little bit of money saved-cost much more than that when it came to having to service them. And since the price was low-there was less markup-therefore less profit to help pay for "time and materials" to service them-even if the company sent a replacement. Just figure out what it cost to send a tech 3 hours each way and time to swap it out and test. not to mention the time to take the call-send the unit back and so forth.
The ADA8000's have been pretty reliable and work-as long as they are used within parameters.
Maybe the company is "changing", but it is may be hard to tell the "good gear" from the "cheap stuff"-especially when it comes actual performance-unless people who are qualified have used it and tested it. Just because one piece of gear works well-does not mean that all from the same company will.
Behringer knows what their target market is-and I am sure they will continue to market to that end.
But their may be a few "diamonds in the rough" that pop out. The key is just finding them.
I think that pretty well sums it up.
I admit I have use a few (very few) pieces of Behringer gear over the years. My first pieces were the original ones made in Germany. Never had an issue with those while I owned them.
In the install world we used only 2 pieces. The DCX2496 (when they were working) were a decent piece of gear for the money. But in an install situation-the little bit of money saved-cost much more than that when it came to having to service them. And since the price was low-there was less markup-therefore less profit to help pay for "time and materials" to service them-even if the company sent a replacement. Just figure out what it cost to send a tech 3 hours each way and time to swap it out and test. not to mention the time to take the call-send the unit back and so forth.
The ADA8000's have been pretty reliable and work-as long as they are used within parameters.
Maybe the company is "changing", but it is may be hard to tell the "good gear" from the "cheap stuff"-especially when it comes actual performance-unless people who are qualified have used it and tested it. Just because one piece of gear works well-does not mean that all from the same company will.
Behringer knows what their target market is-and I am sure they will continue to market to that end.
But their may be a few "diamonds in the rough" that pop out. The key is just finding them.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
I agree Arthur. If I had to do it all again with the cash spent now in hand, it would be a very different ystem. However, since it grew over time with cash as available, it has worked fine. It would take a jump to iLive/GLD-80/Midas Pro1 type systems to make me want to move up. I spent a little time on the LS9 level boards and really didn't like them as much as the 01v96s I have now (except for using ethernet instead of USB.)
I agree Arthur. If I had to do it all again with the cash spent now in hand, it would be a very different ystem. However, since it grew over time with cash as available, it has worked fine. It would take a jump to iLive/GLD-80/Midas Pro1 type systems to make me want to move up. I spent a little time on the LS9 level boards and really didn't like them as much as the 01v96s I have now (except for using ethernet instead of USB.)
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
I have not had horrible 'B' experiences. Have many older pieces, DEQ and DCX 2496, and now an X32. I needed 32 ch with the possibility of digital snake.. The LS9 option is about $14K...with no DCA's.. So... Not an option.
I have not had horrible 'B' experiences. Have many older pieces, DEQ and DCX 2496, and now an X32. I needed 32 ch with the possibility of digital snake.. The LS9 option is about $14K...with no DCA's.. So... Not an option.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
+1, have some product that is around 10 years old, including a bass amp that fell off and stage and was picked up and plugged back in, that was back in 2006. If some guy on the internet feels less of me because I am making a living with my X32, I think I can deal with that 8)~
~
+1, have some product that is around 10 years old, including a bass amp that fell off and stage and was picked up and plugged back in, that was back in 2006. If some guy on the internet feels less of me because I am making a living with my X32, I think I can deal with that 8)~
~Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
+2 I have some behringer amps for 6 years now working just fine. They have been dropped and still kicking. I am not a behringer fanboy by no means, but I also bought the gear expecting it not to last long, so I didn't care if it failed. But it was a good stepping stone, and decent enough to learn on.
+1, have some product that is around 10 years old, including a bass amp that fell off and stage and was picked up and plugged back in, that was back in 2006. If some guy on the internet feels less of me because I am making a living with my X32, I think I can deal with that 8)~
+2 I have some behringer amps for 6 years now working just fine. They have been dropped and still kicking. I am not a behringer fanboy by no means, but I also bought the gear expecting it not to last long, so I didn't care if it failed. But it was a good stepping stone, and decent enough to learn on.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
Stuart, I respect your opinion and can see why you might feel that way.
Early adopters of the X32 chose to believe that there was some substance to what was being said/promoted, that things really were going to be changing direction. So far there is reasonable evidence to support this, at least in the short term.
Having said that, the X32 is so stupidly cheap for what it is/does that there is really nothing else in a comparable price range with equivalent feature set. Price is often the ultimate sales tool, whether we like it or not, and it wins big time on price. Its track record so far has been very good for myself and many others, certainly no worse than other popular digital consoles, and certainly not prone to show-stopping issues. Even if I had to replace an X32 every year it would still be a good value IMHO.
I do take offense with your claim of having lost professional respect for some of the members here. I have spoken positively about the X32, so I must assume I am included in this group. The X32 is a tool, that's all, and a very inexpensive tool at that (for instance, less expensive than just 1 of the Martin moving head lights that I use). It is our choice to determine if that tool is appropriate and "professional" for the intended application.
We are all looking for ways to do more for less money - at least those who want to stay afloat are......
Stuart, I respect your opinion and can see why you might feel that way.
Early adopters of the X32 chose to believe that there was some substance to what was being said/promoted, that things really were going to be changing direction. So far there is reasonable evidence to support this, at least in the short term.
Having said that, the X32 is so stupidly cheap for what it is/does that there is really nothing else in a comparable price range with equivalent feature set. Price is often the ultimate sales tool, whether we like it or not, and it wins big time on price. Its track record so far has been very good for myself and many others, certainly no worse than other popular digital consoles, and certainly not prone to show-stopping issues. Even if I had to replace an X32 every year it would still be a good value IMHO.
I do take offense with your claim of having lost professional respect for some of the members here. I have spoken positively about the X32, so I must assume I am included in this group. The X32 is a tool, that's all, and a very inexpensive tool at that (for instance, less expensive than just 1 of the Martin moving head lights that I use). It is our choice to determine if that tool is appropriate and "professional" for the intended application.
We are all looking for ways to do more for less money - at least those who want to stay afloat are......
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
I don't care if people think I am professional.
It is possible to look at individual products separately from the brand and the man.
Opinions vary... about all three.
Especially since we all have different personal experiences.
If you have a compelling desire to be a member of some popular group think, you may be in the wrong profession.
The X-32 is actually a late comer to the category. Tooling up his own motorized-faders saved a bunch of cost (I think?). Early field reports of fitness and merchantability sound promising. This is a compelling value. Only time will tell if this is an outlier or the new normal.
JR
I don't care if people think I am professional.
It is possible to look at individual products separately from the brand and the man.
Opinions vary... about all three.
Especially since we all have different personal experiences.
If you have a compelling desire to be a member of some popular group think, you may be in the wrong profession.
The X-32 is actually a late comer to the category. Tooling up his own motorized-faders saved a bunch of cost (I think?). Early field reports of fitness and merchantability sound promising. This is a compelling value. Only time will tell if this is an outlier or the new normal.
JR
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
What I'm liking is the posts reporting BOB scenarios ending in how much they love the product.
It used to be said that "friends don't let friends use B******", but that may morph into "who cares? it's cheap".
Reminds me of the story about the two elderly MN ladies who, when asked how they like the restaurant meal they'd just consumed, replied, "Well.......it wasn't very good and the portions were SO SMALL."
What I'm liking is the posts reporting BOB scenarios ending in how much they love the product.
It used to be said that "friends don't let friends use B******", but that may morph into "who cares? it's cheap".
Reminds me of the story about the two elderly MN ladies who, when asked how they like the restaurant meal they'd just consumed, replied, "Well.......it wasn't very good and the portions were SO SMALL."
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Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
This is the first cheap digital console that offers so many truly professional features. Suddenly, everyone can afford PM5D capability, and no one has a clue what to do with it.
If this console was 5 times the price, there wouldn't be one bit of this conversation going on.
You don't buy a Ferrari on which to learn to drive. You buy a Civic or Sentra, then after you have mastered those, you can step up to the real-deal cars.
Behringer has made a Ferrari for the price of a Civic and the results have been pretty entertaining.
This is the first cheap digital console that offers so many truly professional features. Suddenly, everyone can afford PM5D capability, and no one has a clue what to do with it.
If this console was 5 times the price, there wouldn't be one bit of this conversation going on.
You don't buy a Ferrari on which to learn to drive. You buy a Civic or Sentra, then after you have mastered those, you can step up to the real-deal cars.
Behringer has made a Ferrari for the price of a Civic and the results have been pretty entertaining.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
Not exactly... While I don't mean to detract from the accomplishment, there will be others following him into the low end. I doubt there is anything in there that can't be replicated by several companies. If he has already sold tens of thousands as one service guy posted, that is very respectable numbers for a couple $K SKU so congrats. That is thousands of digital consoles that the over priced digital console competition aren't going to sell.
I wouldn't want to be that competition.
JR
Or anybody buying them.
Not exactly... While I don't mean to detract from the accomplishment, there will be others following him into the low end. I doubt there is anything in there that can't be replicated by several companies. If he has already sold tens of thousands as one service guy posted, that is very respectable numbers for a couple $K SKU so congrats. That is thousands of digital consoles that the over priced digital console competition aren't going to sell.
I wouldn't want to be that competition.
JR