Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
JR, you definitely have my respect for your restraint and professionalism in that regard.
JR, you definitely have my respect for your restraint and professionalism in that regard.
Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
- Thread starter Tim McCulloch
- Start date
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
Skeptical. The resources that Behringer were able to bring to bear to this product were not commonly available to other manufacturers, and the lengths to which they have gone to sort manufacturing for their entire operation are substantive. So I'd venture other manufacturing groups would have difficulty replicating this at the price point in the near future. Behringer has clearly been planning this product for some while.
Having said that, and very much teaching grandma to suck eggs, a digital mixer is essentially just a control surface, DSP, and converters. On a mass production product, the cost is all in the hardware, but the value is in the software, software which at mass production levels is free.
Additionally, other manufacturers with existing digital product are going to be focussed on issues surrounding range cannibalisation, whereas Behringer were able to just go for it.
Not entirely. Many folks who are buying X32s would have considered digital out of their price range, and would have bought stuff like GL series. This is why there is a flood of "new digital user" questions. But if the X32 continues to do what many continue to not believe possible, then yeah, other digital manufacturers will have to look at where they are going. Heck, given there looks like being an entire generation of BEs being brought up on Behringer X series, there is a possibility that there will be riders in years to come that will say "mixers: Music Group only"
The question that really intrigues me is how much longer will the GLs be in production? When they get withdrawn, that's the official end of analogue mixing.
+a huge number to that.
NAMM is going to be a bit interesting this year...
Skeptical. The resources that Behringer were able to bring to bear to this product were not commonly available to other manufacturers, and the lengths to which they have gone to sort manufacturing for their entire operation are substantive. So I'd venture other manufacturing groups would have difficulty replicating this at the price point in the near future. Behringer has clearly been planning this product for some while.
Having said that, and very much teaching grandma to suck eggs, a digital mixer is essentially just a control surface, DSP, and converters. On a mass production product, the cost is all in the hardware, but the value is in the software, software which at mass production levels is free.
Additionally, other manufacturers with existing digital product are going to be focussed on issues surrounding range cannibalisation, whereas Behringer were able to just go for it.
Not entirely. Many folks who are buying X32s would have considered digital out of their price range, and would have bought stuff like GL series. This is why there is a flood of "new digital user" questions. But if the X32 continues to do what many continue to not believe possible, then yeah, other digital manufacturers will have to look at where they are going. Heck, given there looks like being an entire generation of BEs being brought up on Behringer X series, there is a possibility that there will be riders in years to come that will say "mixers: Music Group only"
The question that really intrigues me is how much longer will the GLs be in production? When they get withdrawn, that's the official end of analogue mixing.
+a huge number to that.
NAMM is going to be a bit interesting this year...
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
What is probably under appreciated is the effort to make all that code play nice together.
More for some than others... I still won't miss it.
JR
I won't arm wrestle you over my opinion. I don't make these statements casually and have respect for what he has accomplished. That said making a digital console for lower cost is not tantamount to sending a man to the moon.
What is probably under appreciated is the effort to make all that code play nice together.
Not exactly free (or finished) but spread over a few ten k unit sales easier to amortize. The software task is probably a larger barrier to entry than the hardware for very small companies, while Uli's scale and now a head start will make catching and/or under-cutting him on the hardware end more difficult too. That said digital consoles have been on mixer company radar screens for decades. The significant novelty about the X32 is the price point.
Behringer has their own brand management issues to not cannibalize Midas sales, but at the end of the day the Behringer end is the larger payday to maximize. So trading unit Midas sales for hundreds(?) of Behringer sales works.
which is why I only said thousands of lost digital console sales not the full tens of thousands of sales. This price point is surely eroding analog console sales too.
The riders are generally not about the hardware as much as excluding operators who use the lowest cost hardware possible. I won't attempt to make predictions about future riders but might be inclined to bet against your suggestion any time soon.
I doubt the end will be formally announced, but one day we will wake up and analog or digital consoles will just be called consoles.
More for some than others... I still won't miss it.
JR
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
No wrestling necessary: this is crystal ball territory, there are no winners or losers of opinions, no right or wrong. This is an Internet forum, and these words will still be here once we are both dead grumpy old men. Time will be the ultimate arbiter, and in three, five, ten years, we'll have seen how it all turns out.
You have the track record here, and have actually lived and breathed this stuff, whereas I'm just a couch pontificator. But I will claim that I hypothesised that Behringer might have another go at a digital mixer two days after the Midas acquisition. I expected it would be another go at a 19 inch format thing, a retake of the ddx1632, which, for its day, wasn't a bad little mixer. A friend still uses one for bar gigs in Greece, so much for Behringer stuff not lasting past the box being opened. I also suggested it would have "powered by Midas" right next to the Behringer logo. Got that wrong, it's next to the model number. What I didn't expect is what we got, which is an attempt to fully upset the apple cart. And that is typical of my expectations, I usually underestimate what someone will actually do.
Please don't misinterpret any of this for a lack of respect; perhaps I should remind that when we were both grumpy younger men you were designing the products that my generation of impecunious sound people were using to make audiences happy, and for that, I and many others, owe you you a debt of gratitude and thanks.
No wrestling necessary: this is crystal ball territory, there are no winners or losers of opinions, no right or wrong. This is an Internet forum, and these words will still be here once we are both dead grumpy old men. Time will be the ultimate arbiter, and in three, five, ten years, we'll have seen how it all turns out.
You have the track record here, and have actually lived and breathed this stuff, whereas I'm just a couch pontificator. But I will claim that I hypothesised that Behringer might have another go at a digital mixer two days after the Midas acquisition. I expected it would be another go at a 19 inch format thing, a retake of the ddx1632, which, for its day, wasn't a bad little mixer. A friend still uses one for bar gigs in Greece, so much for Behringer stuff not lasting past the box being opened. I also suggested it would have "powered by Midas" right next to the Behringer logo. Got that wrong, it's next to the model number. What I didn't expect is what we got, which is an attempt to fully upset the apple cart. And that is typical of my expectations, I usually underestimate what someone will actually do.
Please don't misinterpret any of this for a lack of respect; perhaps I should remind that when we were both grumpy younger men you were designing the products that my generation of impecunious sound people were using to make audiences happy, and for that, I and many others, owe you you a debt of gratitude and thanks.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
To clarify my comments about professional respect:
It has nothing to do with using Behringer or not specifically. Only a few years ago, as Dick mentioned we had mantras like "friends don't let friends use Behringer" and others of similar ilk. It was widely held that reliability was a mark of professional tools, and Behringer did not have that. There were other comments but all with the same feel.
It now appears that all it took was a cheap enough price, and the presence of a slick salesman to make people throw the past out. It seems that price now outweighs reliability (I don't care if you can buy another one every year. The problem is the loss of reputation when it does mid-show, and especially if several do that.) I find it hard to accept that any manufacturer with a terrible track record, questionable ethics, and a history of disdain should be able to change that with one product, in less than a year, with nothing to go but idle promises.
I grant that Behringer may indeed actually change their spots. It has happened before. I also grant that any company can have a good product. That has also happened. I am however unwilling to grant that a rock bottom price should be the driver for professionals.
There is nothing personal to anyone in my comment. It is a general statement directed at no one in particular, and almost closer to a general indictment of the masses. I cannot believe the turnabout in the views of people due to one yet to be proven product, yet the length of the thread and sales to people here that I know are indeed professionals, leaves me scratching my head.
To clarify my comments about professional respect:
It has nothing to do with using Behringer or not specifically. Only a few years ago, as Dick mentioned we had mantras like "friends don't let friends use Behringer" and others of similar ilk. It was widely held that reliability was a mark of professional tools, and Behringer did not have that. There were other comments but all with the same feel.
It now appears that all it took was a cheap enough price, and the presence of a slick salesman to make people throw the past out. It seems that price now outweighs reliability (I don't care if you can buy another one every year. The problem is the loss of reputation when it does mid-show, and especially if several do that.) I find it hard to accept that any manufacturer with a terrible track record, questionable ethics, and a history of disdain should be able to change that with one product, in less than a year, with nothing to go but idle promises.
I grant that Behringer may indeed actually change their spots. It has happened before. I also grant that any company can have a good product. That has also happened. I am however unwilling to grant that a rock bottom price should be the driver for professionals.
There is nothing personal to anyone in my comment. It is a general statement directed at no one in particular, and almost closer to a general indictment of the masses. I cannot believe the turnabout in the views of people due to one yet to be proven product, yet the length of the thread and sales to people here that I know are indeed professionals, leaves me scratching my head.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
All we can do is wait and see, either failure reports will start piling in (the few reports that are coming in hardly constitute a faulty product imo, we have to hold Behringer to the same standard we hold other products ie. Crown) or they will run for years with no major problems. Perhaps a year from now you can give a big "told you so" speech, or perhaps not.
Besides, while you were making cheeky "friends don't let friends use Behringer" comments, our dry rentals were seeing MASSIVE roi on certain Behringer speakers and powered mixers, along with reliability that bested some pretty big names in the industry. It's nice to see a product pay for itself after being rented out a few times, they could go out a dozen times and die and we would still be making money on them, the icing on the cake is that years later most of that product is working and making money still.
All we can do is wait and see, either failure reports will start piling in (the few reports that are coming in hardly constitute a faulty product imo, we have to hold Behringer to the same standard we hold other products ie. Crown) or they will run for years with no major problems. Perhaps a year from now you can give a big "told you so" speech, or perhaps not.
Besides, while you were making cheeky "friends don't let friends use Behringer" comments, our dry rentals were seeing MASSIVE roi on certain Behringer speakers and powered mixers, along with reliability that bested some pretty big names in the industry. It's nice to see a product pay for itself after being rented out a few times, they could go out a dozen times and die and we would still be making money on them, the icing on the cake is that years later most of that product is working and making money still.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
"I grant that Behringer may indeed actually change their spots. It has happened before. I also grant that any company can have a good product. That has also happened. I am however unwilling to grant that a rock bottom price should be the driver for professionals."
In this case the price put a digital board with the features I require and can use to produce mixes I am proud of. The next closest option was out of reach. So in my case, everyone wins.
Everyone's situation is different of course. It is more on a par with DAW and computer cabability for a recording engineer. I can produce great products if I have the skills. Noone is implying that cheap digital gives anyone skills. And if the cheaper product does the job as well... In a market where the buyers know less than nothing about audio..it makes my living possible.
"I grant that Behringer may indeed actually change their spots. It has happened before. I also grant that any company can have a good product. That has also happened. I am however unwilling to grant that a rock bottom price should be the driver for professionals."
In this case the price put a digital board with the features I require and can use to produce mixes I am proud of. The next closest option was out of reach. So in my case, everyone wins.
Everyone's situation is different of course. It is more on a par with DAW and computer cabability for a recording engineer. I can produce great products if I have the skills. Noone is implying that cheap digital gives anyone skills. And if the cheaper product does the job as well... In a market where the buyers know less than nothing about audio..it makes my living possible.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
I didn't make the snarky comments. I read them from others that come here and other boards, and they turned out to be mostly true in my experience.
Your ability to make an ROI from Behringer does not change my point. People can sell Yugo's and they are still lousy cars. If you rent gear, rent what makes money. I acquire gear to do shows.
As long as the tool works, I can make a passable mix on almost anything. Of the Behringer gear I bought when starting out some years ago (when I knew no better,) not one piece continues to operate. I won't repeat that investment.
The difference in Crown and Behringer is that Crown is a company that makes generally reliable products who sometimes has a dud (like my first generation Itech6000.) Behringer, from what I have ever experienced, is a company that makes duds, and sometime could make a reliable product. ADA8000s were supposed to be the latter case, and they gave me a 100% failure rate in only a couple of years use. Anything can fail, but I will hedge my bets and buy the products with the best reliability I can afford.
Best of luck and I hope it works well for you. I don't care about "told you so's" next year, since that isn't of value to me. I care about trouble free shows, since I am not a rental house.
I didn't make the snarky comments. I read them from others that come here and other boards, and they turned out to be mostly true in my experience.
Your ability to make an ROI from Behringer does not change my point. People can sell Yugo's and they are still lousy cars. If you rent gear, rent what makes money. I acquire gear to do shows.
As long as the tool works, I can make a passable mix on almost anything. Of the Behringer gear I bought when starting out some years ago (when I knew no better,) not one piece continues to operate. I won't repeat that investment.
The difference in Crown and Behringer is that Crown is a company that makes generally reliable products who sometimes has a dud (like my first generation Itech6000.) Behringer, from what I have ever experienced, is a company that makes duds, and sometime could make a reliable product. ADA8000s were supposed to be the latter case, and they gave me a 100% failure rate in only a couple of years use. Anything can fail, but I will hedge my bets and buy the products with the best reliability I can afford.
Best of luck and I hope it works well for you. I don't care about "told you so's" next year, since that isn't of value to me. I care about trouble free shows, since I am not a rental house.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
They also commented on the point made by JR and others regarding trading off sales of a few higher end products for larger sales numbers of lower cost products, however they addressed it in terms of existing dealers. It's one thing for the manufacturer to look at the perspective of the loss of some sales of higher dollar products being offset by larger sales of lower cost products, but that can also represent increasing the sales by mass market, commodity dealers at the expense of sales by dealers that have supported your higher end products. Sort of "Thank you for supporting us in the past and we'd like to reward that by introducing new products that will likely be very profitable - for someone else and not for you." They seemed to feel that they had to consider that losses on the higher end product sales may not be limited to those lost directly to sales of a new lower cost product but also losses resulting from existing dealers going out of business, dropping them or electing to instead promote competing products.
This indirectly relates to the comments I heard from a well known console manufacturer rep regarding their considering the 'entry level' digital console market. They noted that it would not be cost effective to have the support people for their digital consoles answering many of the questions likely to be associated with a mass market, entry level product while the support for their existing mass market analog consoles was not really set up to support networking and other more technical questions that might be common with a digital console. Thus a lower cost, mass market digital console would likely require changes to their support structure, which would require time and money. In comparison, Behringer did not have to consider how the X32 fit with an existing support structure for higher end products or markets and their struggle seems to be more in working out the support structure for those more professional applications.
They also commented on the point made by JR and others regarding trading off sales of a few higher end products for larger sales numbers of lower cost products, however they addressed it in terms of existing dealers. It's one thing for the manufacturer to look at the perspective of the loss of some sales of higher dollar products being offset by larger sales of lower cost products, but that can also represent increasing the sales by mass market, commodity dealers at the expense of sales by dealers that have supported your higher end products. Sort of "Thank you for supporting us in the past and we'd like to reward that by introducing new products that will likely be very profitable - for someone else and not for you." They seemed to feel that they had to consider that losses on the higher end product sales may not be limited to those lost directly to sales of a new lower cost product but also losses resulting from existing dealers going out of business, dropping them or electing to instead promote competing products.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
Maybe our markets are vastly different and that's where these opposing views are coming from, the subtle arrogance that continues to emerge in your posting suggests that maybe I'd be better served to go discuss these points with a wall. At the end of the day, dry rentals keep the lights on when big ticket gear is sitting idle. If the use of Behringer gear to keep those rentals profitable (and therefore keeping food on the table) is a stroke of unprofessionalism, then I guess that is just a pill that we will have to swallow.
What the hell are you doing to break this gear BTW?
Maybe our markets are vastly different and that's where these opposing views are coming from, the subtle arrogance that continues to emerge in your posting suggests that maybe I'd be better served to go discuss these points with a wall. At the end of the day, dry rentals keep the lights on when big ticket gear is sitting idle. If the use of Behringer gear to keep those rentals profitable (and therefore keeping food on the table) is a stroke of unprofessionalism, then I guess that is just a pill that we will have to swallow.
What the hell are you doing to break this gear BTW?
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
I didn't have to break them. They failed by themselves. They worked one day, and the next day just would not power up. Check the fuse...its gone. Put the preamp on the bench and insert another fuse. Power it up, fuse goes again. Both units had the same failure in the same year but not at the same time. Neither was treated better or worse than any other piece of gear in the system. As most anyone that has ever bought gear from me can tell you, my gear looks almost pristine, with most being indistinguishable from NIB, even after years of use. That is how I treat gear.
I believe that unprofessional is putting any piece of unproven gear, from a company with a less than solid record, in a position where its continued operation determines the outcome of the show. You can work around a blown comp, gate, even amps, but you can't easily work around a console that goes south mid-show.
The X32 may turn out to be fine in a few years. Until then, chancing a show on one seems questionable to me. I don't care if Billy Bob's back yard party has an issue during a dry rental. I do care when a touring act with a full house has to wait while the console is switched out and the show is reloaded. Thats is career limiting. To me this is not arrogance, its prudence.
I didn't have to break them. They failed by themselves. They worked one day, and the next day just would not power up. Check the fuse...its gone. Put the preamp on the bench and insert another fuse. Power it up, fuse goes again. Both units had the same failure in the same year but not at the same time. Neither was treated better or worse than any other piece of gear in the system. As most anyone that has ever bought gear from me can tell you, my gear looks almost pristine, with most being indistinguishable from NIB, even after years of use. That is how I treat gear.
I believe that unprofessional is putting any piece of unproven gear, from a company with a less than solid record, in a position where its continued operation determines the outcome of the show. You can work around a blown comp, gate, even amps, but you can't easily work around a console that goes south mid-show.
The X32 may turn out to be fine in a few years. Until then, chancing a show on one seems questionable to me. I don't care if Billy Bob's back yard party has an issue during a dry rental. I do care when a touring act with a full house has to wait while the console is switched out and the show is reloaded. Thats is career limiting. To me this is not arrogance, its prudence.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
For the record I don't think Behringer has presented the X-32 as anything other than a feature rich low priced digital console (that hopefully doesn't suck). IMO it is over the top customers rationalizing their purchase decision (and perhaps a few dealers) inclined to compare these to high end offerings (one even comparing it to a Ferrari... seriously?).
There is a superficial resemblance to more expensive consoles with similar features, while there are visible constraints (like sample rates supported for one obvious example), engineered in, to maintain differentiation between Behringer and their more expensive Midas offerings.
Even I can't predict the future
so this offering deserves being approached cautiously for conservative applications as would any new product of this complexity from anybody.
Many of us have hardened opinions about the brand. Isn't that pretty much what triggered this thread? I don't expect other people to think exactly like me, because they haven't shared my life experience.
YMMV
JR
For the record I don't think Behringer has presented the X-32 as anything other than a feature rich low priced digital console (that hopefully doesn't suck). IMO it is over the top customers rationalizing their purchase decision (and perhaps a few dealers) inclined to compare these to high end offerings (one even comparing it to a Ferrari... seriously?).
There is a superficial resemblance to more expensive consoles with similar features, while there are visible constraints (like sample rates supported for one obvious example), engineered in, to maintain differentiation between Behringer and their more expensive Midas offerings.
Even I can't predict the future
so this offering deserves being approached cautiously for conservative applications as would any new product of this complexity from anybody. Many of us have hardened opinions about the brand. Isn't that pretty much what triggered this thread? I don't expect other people to think exactly like me, because they haven't shared my life experience.
YMMV
JR
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
An old adage comes to mind. Apply it where you will.
"Those who lie down with dogs get up with fleas."
An old adage comes to mind. Apply it where you will.
"Those who lie down with dogs get up with fleas."
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
Again the point is missed. Billy Bob's backyard party as you so put it (with out a hint of condescendance) has never had an issue, I can't explain your failure rate but ours have performed impeccably despite the often hard conditions that dry hire gear experiences on a regular basis. That experience alone leaves me more than confident to put the X32 in some hot seat (B and C level touring act) positions, so far that business decision has been a wise one.
This is my last post on the topic, you have obviously made up your mind to pigeon hole a group of people based on your own personal experience, I'm glad that your gear choices are providing you with success while allowing you to continue to thumb your nose at others, I wish you much luck in the future. While I find your arrogance slightly annoying, I'm not going to lose any sleep as I am confident in the success of our chosen business strategy.
Again the point is missed. Billy Bob's backyard party as you so put it (with out a hint of condescendance) has never had an issue, I can't explain your failure rate but ours have performed impeccably despite the often hard conditions that dry hire gear experiences on a regular basis. That experience alone leaves me more than confident to put the X32 in some hot seat (B and C level touring act) positions, so far that business decision has been a wise one.
This is my last post on the topic, you have obviously made up your mind to pigeon hole a group of people based on your own personal experience, I'm glad that your gear choices are providing you with success while allowing you to continue to thumb your nose at others, I wish you much luck in the future. While I find your arrogance slightly annoying, I'm not going to lose any sleep as I am confident in the success of our chosen business strategy.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
Don't lock the thread! I'm intrigued by how well vBulletin seems to be handling it. Off hand I don't recall ever seeing such a long thread before. Hell even the thread discussing the thread is growing rapidly. EPIC!
Sounds like a personal problem TimI think I'm going to start allowing more sub-threads to drift out of that enormous thread, but honestly I never believed it would still be going at the pace it is. It's the energizer bunny of threads, totally ridiculous... so long it's unusable, and yet it's still the most active thread on the forum!
Don't lock the thread! I'm intrigued by how well vBulletin seems to be handling it. Off hand I don't recall ever seeing such a long thread before. Hell even the thread discussing the thread is growing rapidly. EPIC!
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
Yup, coming up on 8 bits worth of pages,,, interesting to see how they allocated addressing capability.
JR
Yup, coming up on 8 bits worth of pages,,, interesting to see how they allocated addressing capability.
JR
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
Hah! Adam, you just made my day. In fact I think the thread discussing the 200 page thread is probably in the top 5% of all threads itself.
Hah! Adam, you just made my day. In fact I think the thread discussing the 200 page thread is probably in the top 5% of all threads itself.
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
The number of pages is dependent on how you set your view settings; I only have 100 pages of X32 discussion. If they database is still handling the thread just fine, there is no reason to think that the PHP backbone of vBulletin would give up.
The number of pages is dependent on how you set your view settings; I only have 100 pages of X32 discussion. If they database is still handling the thread just fine, there is no reason to think that the PHP backbone of vBulletin would give up.
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
Then the thread has lost the last shred of interest for me.
JR
Then the thread has lost the last shred of interest for me.
JR
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: Grumpy guy observation about the X32 thread
Sorry for ruining the fun for you :blush:
Then the thread has lost the last shred of interest for me.
JR
Sorry for ruining the fun for you :blush: