Behringer line array

Re: Behringer line array

I don't think many are underestimating Uli. However, his goal isn't to take over the speaker world with Behringer.

The X32 is a high volume revenue stream for him to get Midas at a low price point. The Behringer array looks to be a way to generate revenue to allow Turbo arrays at a low price point. The X32 and cheap arrays are secondary, so he can focus on the imbalance of quality vs cost of the primary brands.

Forgive me for appearing cynical, but I've been in the industry for a while and a student of how the business world works. For the record I do not underestimate the resources and capability of the Behringer parent company. Routinely under-appreciated by markets is how much harder it is to make cheap products that don't suck. It is much harder to engineer a VW bug, than a Ferrari.

If you look at where the money is in any industry it is generally in the higher volume lower price point market segments. A paradox that successful mass market merchants must face is that their success in the mass market, poisons their ability to reposition themselves upscale, not that they would ever want to walk away from the larger revenue of the low end. When successful value brands purchase (formerly successful) premium brands often at a discount, it is rarely for technology, but to gain a larger slice of the market pie, with the good will surrounding that premium brand and additional distribution/customers they can't effectively capture using the parent brand. Large companies buy small ones for novel technology all the time, but it is usually very small companies with names we've never heard of, where they actually have some unique technology. These small companies and workers, generally get absorbed into the mother ship and disappear.

This is a natural progression when a value brand has reached a major market share in their target segment and top line growth becomes harder to increase. The high end brand acquisition if properly managed becomes not only incremental sales but a line leader that helps sell the low brand (like the all too familiar whisper rumors that they're all the same inside, just using a different badge, to make the gullible think they are getting a bargain), while hopefully not injuring the high brand too much by the ownership connection. At the same time the premium brand's former customers must be made to believe that the premium brand will not be cheapened, even if prices get reduced.

I feel like a parent telling the children that there is no Santa Claus, at Christmas time, so I apologize. I am very impressed by how well Uli is managing this compared to others who have followed similar paths (it is not easy to manage both sides of such brand related acquisitions). The biggest change I see recently is the active formal participation on several web forums, to counter opinion leaders who hold the brand in low regard. I am impressed with how well the PR campaign is being executed with Uli serving as the poster-in-chief.

For those who believe the parent company is born again, or never knew the old Behringer it's all good. I don't have a pony in this race (any more). I will not argue about what Uli thinks or believes (it can't be known by anybody but him). His message sounds admirable taken at face value, and as long as he walks the new talk, he deserves the chance to keep walking it.

I form my personal judgements from decades of observation and experience so i remain a hard sell.

Merry Christmas all...

JR

PS: The X32 looks like it would be a hit from any brand due to price/feature set. The implied and overtly stated Midas connection surely does not hurt Behringer sales (where the money is). Time will tell how well Midas makes out, but it looks like they have defined a sustainable higher-end segment with how they've parsed performance/feature differences between the two brands.
 
Re: Behringer line array

Brad
I also think it is ridiculousness that a product that was advertised to be released in 2012 (on their website not just a forum) is just now in December being pushed back to an undisclosed date.

On the other hand i also think it would be a little premature to have included any equipment in a bid to a paying customer that did not have a set initial ship date from the manufacturer. Let alone full spec's available, or have another unit from another manufacturer that would fit the bill, that issue would be on the system designer.

Two things.

1. I've had to deal with products from companies who ship to date, rather than finalisation of product. What they really ship is half-finished products. And that just means problems, problems and more problems. I'll happily wait an extra 6-months to get something that works, rather than something that works under certain conditions.

2. Speccing items that are only rumoured to be released, is not a good idea. Ever. As above, good products come from companies that ship when the product is ready.

Would you rather have the old-design Behringer line-array, or the redesigned ones with TurboSound input?
 
Re: Behringer line array

Two things.

1. I've had to deal with products from companies who ship to date, rather than finalisation of product. What they really ship is half-finished products. And that just means problems, problems and more problems. I'll happily wait an extra 6-months to get something that works, rather than something that works under certain conditions.

2. Speccing items that are only rumoured to be released, is not a good idea. Ever. As above, good products come from companies that ship when the product is ready.

Would you rather have the old-design Behringer line-array, or the redesigned ones with TurboSound input?



+1

Soundcraft's flagship console STILL has incomplete software, and there's buttons on the desk that don't do anything, and how long has it been on the market?
 
Re: Behringer line array

My comments were more addressing communication and relationships. Product releases sometimes get delayed for good reasons, the difference is in how often those situations occur and how they are handled when they do occur. I recall seeing numerous videos, press releases, demos at shows, etc. related to the announcement of the X32 and ELX but when the releases were delayed it seemed that the information flow stopped. When people's livelihoods and reputations are on the line they are more likely to want to work with and support manufacturers that exhibit good communications.
 
Re: Behringer line array

I have spent way too much time in those exact trenches (new product roll-outs) and have scars on my ass from heated battles about when to show a new product. Anyone with even a few years experience in this industry can recall at least one major new product release from a major manufacturer, that had problems.

Just like it is very expense to build a product wrong and repair it, it is orders of magnitude more expensive to ship it wrong then repair it.

This is an old topic (for me) but I recall decades ago how at least one small computer company that put themselves out of business by announcing a new product too soon, that killed sales of their current product disastrously. We all should be able to recall at least one flawed major new product releases. You never get a second chance to make a first impressions and some models still suffer a poor reputation from a less than wonderful roll-out.

No company in their right mind would ever ship a product that isn't right. Software intensive products are arguably never finished***, so at some point a decision is made that it is "finished enough", but this can be very irritating, if that doesn't match up with the markets idea of finished enough.

The regular cycle of industry trade shows (NAMM, Musik Messe, etc), are supposed to be the opportunity to have a confidential conversation with dealers and distributors about future products and plans, but every year this turns more and more into a showcase for new product roll-outs to the consumer press. Consumer buying behavior is altered by this visibility into future product so this is a double edged sword for manufacturers.

Consumers are getting a little better at understanding the months long supply chain between cost effective factories and western markets, but not very understanding.

Internally the decisions about when to show new products involve a cost-benefit calculation. The expectation is that showing will shift some current sales into the future. Perhaps OK if it is shifting mostly competitor's sales. (IBM got in trouble with gov't anti-trust regulators for predatory new product releases of Vapor-ware). I am proud of the fact that I once shipped a new generation of an established product to dealers, almost a month before showing it at NAMM. Of course to many in upper management, I showed it 6 months or a year too late. Go figure.

This is not chess, more like checkers, but it is easy for some to find themselves off the playing board.

JR

PS: re: communications. I have found myself in the very difficult position of trying to explain to dealers, and the occasional customer (when some dealer sand-bagged me) why it can take so long to finish a design or implement changes discovered late in the development process. The marketplace is not very patient. Manufacturers don't often lie to dealers, but they can be wrong about actual shipping dates. I don't think I even saw a product come in sooner than promised, delays are not uncommon for a number of valid reasons.

*** I can think of one popular product, where the software was apparently contracted out to an outside consultant. After release that relationship with the consultant did not support upgrades to the software, so it was frozen, without taking full advantage of the platform with later enhancements.
 
Re: Behringer line array

IMHO the biggest factor regarding sound quality are the crew running the gear. I recently attended a show with only hi-qual gear(Meyer, Midas, Lex 960, top notch microphones etc.) and it still sounded like shit because the guy running the board didn't get a basic mix up and running. I bet a more skilled operator could archieve better sound using lesser quality gear. A mix where you could actually hear all the performers. Basic stuff really.
+1. I did a show as a BE this summer on a nice dv-dosc rig with 5x side and 4 SB218. SC48's, great mics, LabGruppen, all the right gear. House engineer was terrible. My band sounded great. The only other band that brought a BE brought their iLive for FOH and they sounded great. While I completely agree with being very skeptical, and that this is a product that will damage some business for knowledgeable providers, I'm open to buying them if they sound good. I already own an x32 and it has worked out a million times better than I thought it would.
 
Re: Behringer line array

Mateusz Ciesiółka;49509 said:
Seems, that behringer is going to make 8-ch wireless mixers for line array. At the behringer website in digital mixers section appear new product: EUROLIVE CA-1. No images nor description.
Says it's for a vertical column array so myst be producing a product similar to the HK elements system and such like , and if you notice on their website there is a new category under loud speakers 'vertical column arrays' with one produch which although has as much info as the mixer there seems to be a companion speaker system Behringer: EUROLIVE BEHRINGER ECA-3D Although no real details as of yet but again could be interesting.
 
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Re: Behringer line array

On the other hand i also think it would be a little premature to have included any equipment in a bid to a paying customer that did not have a set initial ship date from the manufacturer. Let alone full spec's available, or have another unit from another manufacturer that would fit the bill, that issue would be on the system designer.
I have encountered products with full specifications, pricing, demonstration units and stated (and in some cases verified) availability that then either did not get released on time or were not released at all. I have even had manufacturers accept orders and then subsequently cancel them due to delayed availability or a decision to not release the product.

A different unit from another manufacturer is not always a practical option if there was sufficient reason for selecting a specific product in the first place. What can make a product an optimal solution for an application can also mean that there may not be a direct equivalent that will have no impact on anything else including the budget. Multiple times I have seen contractors and consultant left literally picking up the bill for manufacturers not meeting their commitments on product availability.


Two things.

1. I've had to deal with products from companies who ship to date, rather than finalisation of product. What they really ship is half-finished products. And that just means problems, problems and more problems. I'll happily wait an extra 6-months to get something that works, rather than something that works under certain conditions.
Waiting is not always an option, if a project is being designed now or installed now you cannot wait. Also related, I am often designing systems, and many times they are bid, months or even years in advance of their actual installation so to minimize Change Orders I have to rely on manufacturers providing accurate information on upcoming products, planned/estimated availability and planned discontinuation. If a manufacturer announces a product and gives an estimated availability I have to be able to rely on that information and know if it changes. These are aspects that manufacturers moving from MI to pro markets and marketing to contractors, integrators and consultants sometimes seem to fail to recognize.

2. Speccing items that are only rumoured to be released, is not a good idea. Ever. As above, good products come from companies that ship when the product is ready.
There seems to be a difference between rumored products and products manufacturers have actively promoted and for which they have offered any dates for availability. Good companies do ship a working product, but they also ship it when they say they would or at least work to help anyone who specified or sold it if they can't.

Would you rather have the old-design Behringer line-array, or the redesigned ones with TurboSound input?
It's great that they want to improve the product but in the videos from NAMM 2012 (Behringer Line Array Speakers - NAMM 2012 - YouTube) Behringer not only offered pricing but specifically stated "Shipping in April of this year." And those same ELX products were shown in June at InfoComm, which was already after the April date. Now we're looking at what, probably at least a year delay in availability? What I feel is important here is that while Behringer actively promoted the ELX products and their initial availability, what effort was made to get the word out when that information changed?


I realize things sometimes happen that a manufacturer cannot control but in those cases how they respond matters. I have had some manufacturers try to let everyone know when that happens and go out of their way to help resolve related problems when they occur. I have also had some manufacturers basically say "tough luck, it's your problem now" and refuse to offer any help even when those who had supported them were literally paying the price for their actions. That can create two very different perceptions of the situation.

I agree with JR, the big push for manufacturers used to be to have available new products at the shows and events aimed at the related industry professionals, but those seem to increasingly be about creating pre-release press and 'buzz' for upcoming products. What worries me about this is how many products shown may then be delayed or never reach production if the response is not as desired.
 
Re: Behringer line array

Well, I'm not prepared to give it a bad wrap, but I am prepared not to buy it. I was seriously looking at Pro6 when Uli bought Midas. I immediately withdrew the Pro6 from my short list. I still have hopes that Uli will honor the Midas heritage and continue to produce a superior product, but there is no guarantee and the verdict is still out. Jay is still in place and I consider that a good sign. In another two years I will consider the dust to have settled enough to see what direction Midas is truly headed. A leopard doesn't generally change it's spots, but never say never.

The same thing happened when Peavey bought Crest.I thought at the time Peavey would use Crest as a step up in their line,as you have said the Lexus version.Instead,they got rid of the high end consoles in favor of some cheap stuff and now you hear nothing about Crest except for their amps which few are buying.Hopefully,Behringer will use Midas as their show piece and Behringer as their consumer version while using Midas technology to make their consumer products better. After buying a Pro1,my first Midas product,I have to say I have never seen better customer service anywhere.
 
Re: Behringer line array

The same thing happened when Peavey bought Crest.I thought at the time Peavey would use Crest as a step up in their line,as you have said the Lexus version.Instead,they got rid of the high end consoles in favor of some cheap stuff and now you hear nothing about Crest except for their amps which few are buying.Hopefully,Behringer will use Midas as their show piece and Behringer as their consumer version while using Midas technology to make their consumer products better. After buying a Pro1,my first Midas product,I have to say I have never seen better customer service anywhere.

I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but larger parents do not buy smaller/weaker companies to dilute their profit margin.

The reality of such brand associations is that Midas will benefit from Behringer's stronger manufacturing chops, to A) improve profit, B) reduce prices, or both. Behringer will benefit from a halo effect lifted by Midas's relatively higher brand image. The technology transfer widely touted is generally much smaller than advertised. In this case there was probably a positive influence on the X-32 program from Midas participation.

I know a little too much about the Crest acquisition to be comfortable talking about some details even now. There were synergies in other areas, not obvious to the SR market, and things I would have done differently, including things I tried to do differently but didn't gain internal support. The money to be made is where the money is (at the lower mass market price points) so that should not be surprising to informed observers.

JR
 
Re: Behringer line array

Mateusz Ciesiółka;54604 said:
Dear Behringer
Any news about Your line arrays? Can we expect them in this year?

Hi Mataeusz,
Thanks for your interest in the ELX Line Array series. The current information that we have been told is that the ELX should start shipping in late July.
For the latest information, be sure to check out our forums at forum.behringer.com

Best,
John DiNicola
Senior Specialist, Product Support
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER
 
Re: Behringer line array

I'm sure this was addressed earlier but I've since forgotten: is there going to be a form of prediction software available? Otherwise, the rig will be almost totally useless for any of my purposes.
 
Re: Behringer line array

I'm sure this was addressed earlier but I've since forgotten: is there going to be a form of prediction software available? Otherwise, the rig will be almost totally useless for any of my purposes.

Turbosound have got EASE, so it would be natural to assume that this will be available for the Behringer arrays as well, ie. that the ease data for the units will be available.
 
Re: Behringer line array

Dear Guys,

Yes we have EASE data for the ELX series.
This data will be added to our ELX product pages. There is a Downloads tab on each page.

Info will be live in the coming weeks.

Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Product Support
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER