Behringer line array

[Gene Hardage]

Re: Behringer line array

Fine with me, Jordan, but I refuse to do several things in business, and patronizing criminals is one of them. Another is using gear that is famous because of it's low price point as that lowers the value of our services to a client.

Think about this: I have a major university account that depends on the ability of our firm and gear to deliver intelligible sound in a very challenging acoustic environment. The solution was a quality vertical array, properly deployed and tuned.\

A few months ago, a competitor attempted to steal this account by GIVING AWAY the speaker system. To the new university employee who is in charge of this event, it sounded great, saving a few thousand dollars. She didn't know the difference between a KF-850, JBL 4889 or a Peavey SP-2, all she knew was some inexplicably generous firm wanted to give the uni a free "service."

Fortunately, saner minds prevailed. A most comprehensive bid specification was developed and sent out. That competitor didn't even bid, although he stirred up enough shit with the purchasing dept that it made things difficult for vendors who had the actual capability of meeting the needs of the university.

Why this story? Because most people, other than the technically save, don't know the difference between shit and Shinola and they certainly don't get past the words "line array". There will be guys lining up at Banjo Depot to buy this thing because of the form factor, knowing those words alone will open doors they don't truly have the capability to enter (but will do so anyway). I see these products as a way to wreck profitable markets and make thing much harder for those who really know what they're doing. I see this product, in the hands of fools, trying to get corporate biz or festival work that is better served by competent firms with proven, quality products.

But because the price of entry is so low, I see fools giving this shit away, too, and destroying what is left of fair and community festival market. How would you feel if the "opening act" at the county fair gets your gig because they can provide a free PA for the headline act? What do YOU think the farmers and small business owners on the fair board are gonna do?

I don't care if this this totally sucks or marginally sucks (where's the prediction software? Where's the support?), it's a business destroyer for quality providers that hope to make a profit in small and middle market gigs.

Don't be an ankle-biter.

I'll jump in here as one of the resident ankle-biters. Here's yet another reason for all the wailing and knashing of teeth. Many of us have had Bgr. product of some kind and some have had good luck with it. Of the 4 things that I owned by them - one has died. They are so cheap that if you want to repair them it's not cost effective so you wind up throwing it away instead. 1 out of 4 - not good odds and that has nothing to do with the sound.

I'd love to see the passive crossover components inside these boxes. Will they fry when hit hard? Will they sound good? OK? bad? harsh? More importantly is the rigging itself. These things have to be rated and tested etc. but regardless of all that - will this thing fall on my head?!?! The Bgr. name has earned it's negative reputation one failure at a time.

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: Behringer line array

More importantly is the rigging itself. These things have to be rated and tested etc. but regardless of all that - will this thing fall on my head?!?! The Bgr. name has earned it's negative reputation one failure at a time.

It's designed as a 7:1 system - for every 7 times it is hung, it will only fall once. German Roulette?

 

[Jeff Babcock]

Re: Behringer line array

I don't care if this this totally sucks or marginally sucks (where's the prediction software? Where's the support?), it's a business destroyer for quality providers that hope to make a profit in small and middle market gigs.

If you think that cheap line arrays are a business destroyer, take a look over into the recording world where for a few grand you can buy sufficient tools to record some fairly competitive stuff (assuming you have the production chops). Major studios have felt the strain and some have closed because the barrier to entry has changed such that all of their low end and midrange clients are gone, which was previously the work that carried them over in between higher profile projects.

Guys with a modest "project studio" (such as myself) and bands with their own gear can get their product out there at a fraction of the cost of a real pro-level studio (if it's a bigger project sometimes they'll ship their project-studio created tracks to a big-gun like a Chris Lord Alge etc to spend a day or two to mix the album). Bands aren't typically spending the same money to make an album they once were except in the "A" list world.

It also created an explosion in the low end market. As the barrier to entry was significantly reduced, you end up with thousands of crappy wannabe musicians putting out a tremendous amount of content.

It's been interesting to see "pro" folks in that world trying to figure out new ways to generate revenue.

Live sound will undoubtedly be affected to some degree in the same way the recording world has been, though live sound does have some other factors to consider which may allow it to fare a bit better than the recording world.

Interesting times.

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: Behringer line array

Or it could be a JBL rating. 136dB from a JBL VT4886....

Do you have any evidence that their numbers are "generous"? I assume they are as good as most other specs, but would be very curious to hear if otherwise.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Behringer line array

The change in recording has not been unnoticed by me... I used to pimp for a studio & broadcast supply distributor, at one time the largest 3M magnetic media account in our region. We also sold BASF, Capitol, AGFA and Ampex; hardware from dbx, Orban and some specialized b'cast lines.

Then software DAWs hit the pro-sumer and musicians markets.

Mene, mene, tekel Upharsin.... I got back on the bus as a BE. Such is life.

Tim Mc

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Behringer line array

The studio business was irreversibly changed by the porta-studio, and that genie can't be put back, nor should it be.

The price drops for live gear over the last few decades is similarly remarkable, and only a bad thing to the old guard.

For a new data point, I think there is a new motion picture coming out that was shot completely on a cellphone!! I recall Coppola making news for experimenting with digital movie cameras. I guess you can stick a fork in that one too.

The world is changing around us, and all kinds of technology based tools are getting cheaper... This is not a bad thing.. IMO.

JR

 

[Jeff Babcock]

Re: Behringer line array

The world is changing around us, and all kinds of technology based tools are getting cheaper... This is not a bad thing.. IMO.

JR

Certainly not a bad thing, but the biggest downside for me as this makes its way through every media platform is having to wade through oceans of bad content to find the good stuff.

As an example - more video is uploaded to YouTube in 60 days than the "Big 3" television networks create in 60 years. A large percentage (probably >99%) of the stuff uploaded to YouTube is stuff I never want to see (and nobody else does either!)

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: Behringer line array

Certainly not a bad thing, but the biggest downside for me as this makes its way through every media platform is having to wade through oceans of bad content to find the good stuff.

As an example - more video is uploaded to YouTube in 60 days than the "Big 3" television networks create in 60 years. A large percentage (probably >99%) of the stuff uploaded to YouTube is stuff I never want to see (and nobody else does either!)

I think the "Big 3" have about the same ratio of success in my book.

 

[Jeff Babcock]

Re: Behringer line array

I think the "Big 3" have about the same ratio of success in my book.

I could see that one coming 2 seconds after I posted it....
Indeed, I don't watch much TV at all for that very reason. But I would challenge you to randomly watch an hour of commercial tv and then watch an hour of random videos on youtube that are uploaded by an "average joe". You might not like either but after an hour of watching 12 year olds covering Justin Bieber songs, random stupidness and opinion videos, etc etc you'll appreciate professionally created content a lot more.

 

[Helge A. Bentsen]

Re: Behringer line array

Do you have any evidence that their numbers are "generous"? I assume they are as good as most other specs, but would be very curious to hear if otherwise.

No evidence, but I won't belive it untill I get it verified by a measurement. IMHE I've never heard or measured a box of similar size with that kind of output

 

[brian maddox]

Re: Behringer line array

Mene, mene, tekel Upharsin.... I got back on the bus as a BE. Such is life.

Tim Mc

whipping out the babylonian reference seems somehow very fitting in the times we live in... just sayin'

 

[Tim Weaver]

Re: Behringer line array

For a new data point, I think there is a new motion picture coming out that was shot completely on a cellphone!! I recall Coppola making news for experimenting with digital movie cameras. I guess you can stick a fork in that one too.
JR

Bob Schneider - Till Somebody Catches a Feelin (HD) - YouTube

This was filmed on an iPhone 4 really soon after it hit the market.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Behringer line array

whipping out the babylonian reference seems somehow very fitting in the times we live in... just sayin'

Well, I suppose....

Mostly it had to do with showing off with my old boss, Belshazzar. As a busboy, I knew when to leave the party...

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: Behringer line array

The cost of entry declining is always a double edged sword. I have recording studio equipment sitting in storage that I payed a small fortune for years ago when it was state of the art. The thing is, that equipment made me money at the time and has been written off on the books for years. It is wonderful that what I can buy now, and do currently own, costs a fraction of what I had to pay 10 and 20 years ago, and sounds exponentially better. I used to hate the cost of 2" tape and the fact that I got less than 17 minutes of 24 track running time on a reel. The machine was the size of a small refrigerator and required a maintenance program all of its own. When I work in my studio now the money that I actually take home is more with much less invested. Adjusting for inflation not figured. Yes anybody with a few bucks or a decent credit card or two can "buy in" now, but only those with good skills and marketing are going to stay in and actually make decent sounding recordings. I am no longer hired for the gear I have available but for the sound I get, which is kind of the way I always thought it was supposed to work. The previous problem was I could not get the sound without mortgaging my life away. The current product is better, costs less, and I get paid at least the same or more without the stress of owing almost six figures to the bank. Too bad it all ends up on MP3 anyway.

In the "pricing for a rig rental" thread I found out that the big boys operate on such low ROI margins it is almost scary. It reminds me of my early recording studio owner days. It takes some major capital to play and that has to be amortized over many years to just break even. The profit has to be made on service and skilled labor. Until now the buy in has kept many of the ankle biters out of even the mid level sound reinforcement game and that most likely will not change overnight any time soon. Even if Behringer or anyone else changes equipment cost drastically it will not put the top end and best of the best guys out of business. Service, skilled labor, relationships, marketing, and good business practices will always trump in the long run. I would love to be able to purchase a 20 box A level line array for $10,000 or some other arbitrary low figure just like everybody else INCLUDING the Big Boys. The money is made in the set up,proper deployment, operating, and strike portions of the contract. It seems the high cost of equipment has only been a tool to keep people without access to capital out. Companies like Clair Brothers and engineers like Robert Scovill and Dave Rat are still going to be at the top and rightfully command premium prices. I am shure all of them would like to be able to pay less for better equipment.

You pay well for the top tier in any industry and you get your moneys worth or the top tier folks soon have no market share. The law of supply and demand always has a say. Anyone can buy Smaart for $700 but it doesn't make them Ivan or Phil. I would love to see the bottom and mid line providers have access to affordable, decent sounding line array technology and actually learn how to deploy it properly. All the Behringer Bashing is well earned by the company but I am willing to forgive and forget if they truly change their ways and make some good products at affordible prices that don't break in the first few months. I won't be one of the guinea pigs on this one due to being burned by them before, but I might buy some boxes later if they prove themself. I hope this product is a step in the right direction but only time will tell.

 

[Brad Weber]

Re: Behringer line array

That is not what I said. But think of it this way-people who know hor to properly use gear usually expect more information about a product before using it.

I am disappointed, but not surprised, by Mackie, Behringer and others introducing and marketing products months before anyone can get their hands on a working version or get anything much beyond marketing information. Creating a market for a product and letting certain people know of products in advance is one thing, marketing something to end users that doesn't even exist and for which there is little or no supporting data or information is another.

My perspective on any new Behringer products is biased by the Behringer X32 digital mixer, S16 digital snake and P16-M personal monitor system, products that were announced over a year ago, shown at shows almost a year ago, apparently initially expected to be released the middle of last year and have been shown on Behringer's and some retailers' web sites for months, but that have experienced one delay after another and are currently still "coming soon". So I when I see Behringer introducing new iPad based mixers, new line arrays, etc. I am reminded that they still haven't delivered on their last 'game changer' products.

Behringer is not unlike most other gear that is sold at the local music store and the customers are typically about the same. Not exactly what you would call professional.

The distribution model is one aspect that concerns me. Do you really think the typical Behringer dealer is not going to suggest to people that these line arrays are comparable to the big boys? Are system operators and designers going to get the support they get from JBL, L'Acoustics, Nexo, d&b, QSC or even Peavey? I envision many people being led to believe these are a 'comparable' to other line array systems at a much lower price with system designers and operators then expected to make that happen and to do so with little support, including being without the necessary information or products to demo to assess how 'comparable' they may be.

The distribution is of direct relevance for me since most of my work is installed systems. I had a conversation with someone who sells some Behringer gear regarding how I could design around and spec a Behringer product and it then be obtained by a qualified Contractor. Behringer apparently has no reps, no consultant/contractor liaisons, etc. and the only dealers they list in this major metro area are music stores and production companies also offering box sales. Contractors can apparently purchase through one or two national distributors but neither of us were clear on where other than the music stores and mass online retailers anyone else was supposed to go for any pre-sale or post-sale support. If Behringer really plans for these products to go into some of the applications they seem to think they will then they need to implement a different distribution and support model.

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Behringer line array

I am disappointed, but not surprised, by Mackie, Behringer and others introducing and marketing products months before anyone can get their hands on a working version or get anything much beyond marketing information. Creating a market for a product and letting certain people know of products in advance is one thing, marketing something to end users that doesn't even exist and for which there is little or no supporting data or information is another.

My perspective on any new Behringer products is biased by the Behringer X32 digital mixer, S16 digital snake and P16-M personal monitor system, products that were announced over a year ago, shown at shows almost a year ago, apparently initially expected to be released the middle of last year and have been shown on Behringer's and some retailers' web sites for months, but that have experienced one delay after another and are currently still "coming soon". So I when I see Behringer introducing new iPad based mixers, new line arrays, etc. I am reminded that they still haven't delivered on their last 'game changer' products.


The distribution model is one aspect that concerns me. Do you really think the typical Behringer dealer is not going to suggest to people that these line arrays are comparable to the big boys? Are system operators and designers going to get the support they get from JBL, L'Acoustics, Nexo, d&b, QSC or even Peavey? I envision many people being led to believe these are a 'comparable' to other line array systems at a much lower price with system designers and operators then expected to make that happen and to do so with little support, including being without the necessary information or products to demo to assess how 'comparable' they may be.

The distribution is of direct relevance for me since most of my work is installed systems. I had a conversation with someone who sells some Behringer gear regarding how I could design around and spec a Behringer product and it then be obtained by a qualified Contractor. Behringer apparently has no reps, no consultant/contractor liaisons, etc. and the only dealers they list in this major metro area are music stores and production companies also offering box sales. Contractors can apparently purchase through one or two national distributors but neither of us were clear on where other than the music stores and mass online retailers anyone else was supposed to go for any pre-sale or post-sale support. If Behringer really plans for these products to go into some of the applications they seem to think they will then they need to implement a different distribution and support model.

FWIW, it seems people are getting demos of the Mackie Ipad mixer here.

 

[Ryan Lantzy]

Re: Behringer line array

The studio business was irreversibly changed by the porta-studio, and that genie can't be put back, nor should it be.

The price drops for live gear over the last few decades is similarly remarkable, and only a bad thing to the old guard.

For a new data point, I think there is a new motion picture coming out that was shot completely on a cellphone!! I recall Coppola making news for experimenting with digital movie cameras. I guess you can stick a fork in that one too.

The world is changing around us, and all kinds of technology based tools are getting cheaper... This is not a bad thing.. IMO.

JR

There is an interesting documentary that dives into the mass marketing of media generation (movies, music, and books) called PressPausePlay PressPausePlay. One of the concerns voiced buy the "old guard" is that it will lead to a dilution of what is art and what is not. I'm not sure I disagree or agree with that viewpoint in it's entirety. That said, I don't think that the current studio system is all that great at "curating" art. They are, however, good at making money - not that this is a bad thing.

 

[Mark Petersen]

Re: Behringer line array

I think the "Big 3" have about the same ratio of success in my book.

Less, in mine.

 

[Brad Weber]

Re: Behringer line array

Recently posted by one of Uli's web bots:

ELX42: $799
ELX82: $1499
ELX212 Sub: $999
ELX215 Sub: $1699

Shipping this summer they claim.

Maybe they meant next summer. I wonder if the acquisition of Turbosound by MUSIC Group affected the development or future of the ELX line array products, but apparently one more initially noted product availability date badly missed.

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: Behringer line array

Maybe it will be worth the wait. The X32 was. It is interesting seeing this thread almost a year after the last post I made on it (see above). I actually would be willing to give the line array a try now when it is released and when the prices stabilize.