Behringer line array
- Thread starter Greg Cameron
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Re: Behringer line array
Or it could be a JBL rating. 136dB from a JBL VT4886....
Or it could be a JBL rating. 136dB from a JBL VT4886....
Re: Behringer line array
Recently posted by one of Uli's web bots:
ELX42: $799
ELX82: $1499
ELX212 Sub: $999
ELX215 Sub: $1699
Shipping this summer they claim.
I am surprised by the pricing.
$1500/box for the "big" line array box - that's cheap, but I wonder if it is cheap enough, especially given that people are used to $300 Behringer speakers with mediocre SQ. I was expecting something more like $999. Unless these are pretty smokin', I can see people sticking with the established players, even if they have to spend slightly more. Boxes like the Versarray and the DVA T4 (when you factor in power) are there in that price range, as are the budget conscious fixed angle boxes like the Mackie HDA etc, and that's not even getting into the fringe budget stuff from off brands.
So for a 6 per side rig, probably 20K once you add the array frame. That math won't make me want that rig, but who knows, they must think that's what the market will bear. Certainly not providing the same pricing "wow" as something like the X32.
Recently posted by one of Uli's web bots:
ELX42: $799
ELX82: $1499
ELX212 Sub: $999
ELX215 Sub: $1699
Shipping this summer they claim.
I am surprised by the pricing.
$1500/box for the "big" line array box - that's cheap, but I wonder if it is cheap enough, especially given that people are used to $300 Behringer speakers with mediocre SQ. I was expecting something more like $999. Unless these are pretty smokin', I can see people sticking with the established players, even if they have to spend slightly more. Boxes like the Versarray and the DVA T4 (when you factor in power) are there in that price range, as are the budget conscious fixed angle boxes like the Mackie HDA etc, and that's not even getting into the fringe budget stuff from off brands.
So for a 6 per side rig, probably 20K once you add the array frame. That math won't make me want that rig, but who knows, they must think that's what the market will bear. Certainly not providing the same pricing "wow" as something like the X32.
Re: Behringer line array
Is $1500 list or the actual price? I think $999 is a better "marketing" price as far as being a low-cost solution to competing brands. But, if they hold up and sound half-decent, you will seem them EVERYWHERE.....
Is $1500 list or the actual price? I think $999 is a better "marketing" price as far as being a low-cost solution to competing brands. But, if they hold up and sound half-decent, you will seem them EVERYWHERE.....
Re: Behringer line array
I find it hard to take you guys seriously when new gear is talked about. No one has even tested it and the bashing has commenced. Sorry but if someone was to base their purchasing off of you guys they'd be in the red and have a failing business in their hands.
That said, I'd like to hear the system before I make judgment some of the old behringer gear was damn good for its price range others not so much but to base your entire opinion about all products based upon a few failings a company has had would put every company in the "This is all crap list". The biggest fear I have is that they have to put that price range that high to make people believe its good. I'll definitely be getting demo's of this gear before I make any decisions on it.
I find it hard to take you guys seriously when new gear is talked about. No one has even tested it and the bashing has commenced. Sorry but if someone was to base their purchasing off of you guys they'd be in the red and have a failing business in their hands.
That said, I'd like to hear the system before I make judgment some of the old behringer gear was damn good for its price range others not so much but to base your entire opinion about all products based upon a few failings a company has had would put every company in the "This is all crap list". The biggest fear I have is that they have to put that price range that high to make people believe its good. I'll definitely be getting demo's of this gear before I make any decisions on it.
Re: Behringer line array
Fine with me, Jordan, but I refuse to do several things in business, and patronizing criminals is one of them. Another is using gear that is famous because of it's low price point as that lowers the value of our services to a client.
Think about this: I have a major university account that depends on the ability of our firm and gear to deliver intelligible sound in a very challenging acoustic environment. The solution was a quality vertical array, properly deployed and tuned.\
A few months ago, a competitor attempted to steal this account by GIVING AWAY the speaker system. To the new university employee who is in charge of this event, it sounded great, saving a few thousand dollars. She didn't know the difference between a KF-850, JBL 4889 or a Peavey SP-2, all she knew was some inexplicably generous firm wanted to give the uni a free "service."
Fortunately, saner minds prevailed. A most comprehensive bid specification was developed and sent out. That competitor didn't even bid, although he stirred up enough shit with the purchasing dept that it made things difficult for vendors who had the actual capability of meeting the needs of the university.
Why this story? Because most people, other than the technically save, don't know the difference between shit and Shinola and they certainly don't get past the words "line array". There will be guys lining up at Banjo Depot to buy this thing because of the form factor, knowing those words alone will open doors they don't truly have the capability to enter (but will do so anyway). I see these products as a way to wreck profitable markets and make thing much harder for those who really know what they're doing. I see this product, in the hands of fools, trying to get corporate biz or festival work that is better served by competent firms with proven, quality products.
But because the price of entry is so low, I see fools giving this shit away, too, and destroying what is left of fair and community festival market. How would you feel if the "opening act" at the county fair gets your gig because they can provide a free PA for the headline act? What do YOU think the farmers and small business owners on the fair board are gonna do?
I don't care if this this totally sucks or marginally sucks (where's the prediction software? Where's the support?), it's a business destroyer for quality providers that hope to make a profit in small and middle market gigs.
Don't be an ankle-biter.
Fine with me, Jordan, but I refuse to do several things in business, and patronizing criminals is one of them. Another is using gear that is famous because of it's low price point as that lowers the value of our services to a client.
Think about this: I have a major university account that depends on the ability of our firm and gear to deliver intelligible sound in a very challenging acoustic environment. The solution was a quality vertical array, properly deployed and tuned.\
A few months ago, a competitor attempted to steal this account by GIVING AWAY the speaker system. To the new university employee who is in charge of this event, it sounded great, saving a few thousand dollars. She didn't know the difference between a KF-850, JBL 4889 or a Peavey SP-2, all she knew was some inexplicably generous firm wanted to give the uni a free "service."
Fortunately, saner minds prevailed. A most comprehensive bid specification was developed and sent out. That competitor didn't even bid, although he stirred up enough shit with the purchasing dept that it made things difficult for vendors who had the actual capability of meeting the needs of the university.
Why this story? Because most people, other than the technically save, don't know the difference between shit and Shinola and they certainly don't get past the words "line array". There will be guys lining up at Banjo Depot to buy this thing because of the form factor, knowing those words alone will open doors they don't truly have the capability to enter (but will do so anyway). I see these products as a way to wreck profitable markets and make thing much harder for those who really know what they're doing. I see this product, in the hands of fools, trying to get corporate biz or festival work that is better served by competent firms with proven, quality products.
But because the price of entry is so low, I see fools giving this shit away, too, and destroying what is left of fair and community festival market. How would you feel if the "opening act" at the county fair gets your gig because they can provide a free PA for the headline act? What do YOU think the farmers and small business owners on the fair board are gonna do?
I don't care if this this totally sucks or marginally sucks (where's the prediction software? Where's the support?), it's a business destroyer for quality providers that hope to make a profit in small and middle market gigs.
Don't be an ankle-biter.
I'll agree that in saturated markets these systems could wipe out the better quality business but then we should look at what we are pushing on clients. Are the clients needing the best quality system for a small farm show? Or do we as providers need to look realisticly at what the clients needs are. The people that "give" those systems away won't be around long due to support issues.
Sent from my ADR6300
Sent from my ADR6300
Re: Behringer line array
Now-a-days we are SURROUNDED by bad sound. Everything from bad MP3's-to distorted installed systems (think eateries-convenience stores etc) to overdriven DJ's and so forth and so on.
I have run into a number of situations lately that they typical "lay person" thinks the distorted/compressed system actual sounds better- because they think "that sound" is "right".
In so many cases "just making some sound" is considered good.
And there are a number of manufacturers who are tying to improve the sound quality, but if the inputs are poor and then overdriven, all the efforts sometimes seem futile.
Yes, while a "farm show" may not be at the top of the list (in terms of quality needed), but that is not a reason to excuse poor performance.
We must ALL work to gether to "raise the bar", because it is constantly being lowered. Either by cheap gear or by installers/operators that have no idea what they are doing.
In the "ol days", it was a lot harder to get good sound, and it required more knowledge to get it all working (somebody with a paycheck could not just walk into the local music store and by a complete system), so the overall quality of "providers" was higher.
It seems as if anybody who can hook it up and make a loud noise is considered an "expert" these days.
Rant off.
And that is part of the whole problem.
Now-a-days we are SURROUNDED by bad sound. Everything from bad MP3's-to distorted installed systems (think eateries-convenience stores etc) to overdriven DJ's and so forth and so on.
I have run into a number of situations lately that they typical "lay person" thinks the distorted/compressed system actual sounds better- because they think "that sound" is "right".
In so many cases "just making some sound" is considered good.
And there are a number of manufacturers who are tying to improve the sound quality, but if the inputs are poor and then overdriven, all the efforts sometimes seem futile.
Yes, while a "farm show" may not be at the top of the list (in terms of quality needed), but that is not a reason to excuse poor performance.
We must ALL work to gether to "raise the bar", because it is constantly being lowered. Either by cheap gear or by installers/operators that have no idea what they are doing.
In the "ol days", it was a lot harder to get good sound, and it required more knowledge to get it all working (somebody with a paycheck could not just walk into the local music store and by a complete system), so the overall quality of "providers" was higher.
It seems as if anybody who can hook it up and make a loud noise is considered an "expert" these days.
Rant off.
Re: Behringer line array
So a 4x stack o' B-word on a sub will cost around $7,000. In the likelihood that it will be mis-deployed, that money would be better spent on something like a Danley SH series. It would be almost impossible to screw up and sound better.
See, Jordan, that's where I'm going. This will be popular because it's a "line array".... a CHEAP line array... and that probably 90% of the time it will not cover the intended area correctly, if at all, because of the end user. Take a well designed trap box and sub, though, and it's point and shoot, minimal processing, probably less truck/van space. The term "quality" is nebulous. Quality sound means consistent coverage as well as more subjective impressions of the sonic signature. I'd argue that the farmers and FFA want reasonably consistent coverage over the area they need covered. With a trap box, it's easier to do right. With any adjustable vertical array it's much, much easier to screw up. Why should the farm show get screwed because the system owner can't aim & process the UliSpecial correctly?
This is the same thing that got "NO PEAVEY" on riders. A sophisticated product that lowers the price of entry without raising the technical education of the users is certain to leave a bad taste with those who deal with the results.
So a 4x stack o' B-word on a sub will cost around $7,000. In the likelihood that it will be mis-deployed, that money would be better spent on something like a Danley SH series. It would be almost impossible to screw up and sound better.
See, Jordan, that's where I'm going. This will be popular because it's a "line array".... a CHEAP line array... and that probably 90% of the time it will not cover the intended area correctly, if at all, because of the end user. Take a well designed trap box and sub, though, and it's point and shoot, minimal processing, probably less truck/van space. The term "quality" is nebulous. Quality sound means consistent coverage as well as more subjective impressions of the sonic signature. I'd argue that the farmers and FFA want reasonably consistent coverage over the area they need covered. With a trap box, it's easier to do right. With any adjustable vertical array it's much, much easier to screw up. Why should the farm show get screwed because the system owner can't aim & process the UliSpecial correctly?
This is the same thing that got "NO PEAVEY" on riders. A sophisticated product that lowers the price of entry without raising the technical education of the users is certain to leave a bad taste with those who deal with the results.
Re: Behringer line array
"This is the same thing that got "NO PEAVEY" on riders. A sophisticated product that lowers the price of entry without raising the technical education of the users is certain to leave a bad taste with those who deal with the results. "
Exactly! The "NO PEAVEY" rider is not a reflection on Peavey equipment, but it is the result of people who use Peavey equipment improperly or in the wrong situation because it's all they can afford. Even if Behringer did come up with a quality product, the damage is done(IMHO).
"This is the same thing that got "NO PEAVEY" on riders. A sophisticated product that lowers the price of entry without raising the technical education of the users is certain to leave a bad taste with those who deal with the results. "
Exactly! The "NO PEAVEY" rider is not a reflection on Peavey equipment, but it is the result of people who use Peavey equipment improperly or in the wrong situation because it's all they can afford. Even if Behringer did come up with a quality product, the damage is done(IMHO).
Re: Behringer line array
THAT is hitting the nail on the head! Let's assume the product itself is just fine. But the typical buyer of that level of product does not have the basic understanding of sound systems-how they work-how they INTERACT and so forth.
So the result is bad sound and it gets blamed on the product. Not the user. MANY systems could be improved by simply setting them up and running them correctly. But people often look for the "magic gear" to solve THEIR problems. Because THEY know to use it-yeah right.
Give 3 people a hammer.
One will build a house-One will build a piece of furniture-the Third will hit his thumb and blame the hammer! It MUST be the hammers fault-right?
THAT is hitting the nail on the head! Let's assume the product itself is just fine. But the typical buyer of that level of product does not have the basic understanding of sound systems-how they work-how they INTERACT and so forth.
So the result is bad sound and it gets blamed on the product. Not the user. MANY systems could be improved by simply setting them up and running them correctly. But people often look for the "magic gear" to solve THEIR problems. Because THEY know to use it-yeah right.
Give 3 people a hammer.
One will build a house-One will build a piece of furniture-the Third will hit his thumb and blame the hammer! It MUST be the hammers fault-right?
Re: Behringer line array
IMHO the biggest factor regarding sound quality are the crew running the gear. I recently attended a show with only hi-qual gear(Meyer, Midas, Lex 960, top notch microphones etc.) and it still sounded like shit because the guy running the board didn't get a basic mix up and running. I bet a more skilled operator could archieve better sound using lesser quality gear. A mix where you could actually hear all the performers. Basic stuff really.
IMHO the biggest factor regarding sound quality are the crew running the gear. I recently attended a show with only hi-qual gear(Meyer, Midas, Lex 960, top notch microphones etc.) and it still sounded like shit because the guy running the board didn't get a basic mix up and running. I bet a more skilled operator could archieve better sound using lesser quality gear. A mix where you could actually hear all the performers. Basic stuff really.
Re: Behringer line array
i have gone into quite a number of installs (and fixed a number of them) in which all the "right names" were used-as far as gear was concerned. But the physical setup and alignment/tuning was completely wrong-but the names would meet any rider.
No amount of good mixing will fix dead spots or areas that are tonally out of balance with the rest of the system.
There are basically 4 things that make for a good sounding system. They are listed below in order of importance (at least to me) from the most important to the least.
1: System design/layout/aiming etc
2: System alignment/tuning
3: Mix operation
4: Quality of gear
Now the last statement will get a lot of comments, so let me say that the quality of gear can make a HUGE difference on number 1 and 2. If the system "plays well" together, then it is much easier to do the job.
But it was only the quality of the gear that made the difference, then most shows would sound a lot better than they do.
Anyway-that is MY opinion-others will vary I am sure.
That is part of it. The other part (that Tim was eluding to) is the setup of the gear.
i have gone into quite a number of installs (and fixed a number of them) in which all the "right names" were used-as far as gear was concerned. But the physical setup and alignment/tuning was completely wrong-but the names would meet any rider.
No amount of good mixing will fix dead spots or areas that are tonally out of balance with the rest of the system.
There are basically 4 things that make for a good sounding system. They are listed below in order of importance (at least to me) from the most important to the least.
1: System design/layout/aiming etc
2: System alignment/tuning
3: Mix operation
4: Quality of gear
Now the last statement will get a lot of comments, so let me say that the quality of gear can make a HUGE difference on number 1 and 2. If the system "plays well" together, then it is much easier to do the job.
But it was only the quality of the gear that made the difference, then most shows would sound a lot better than they do.
Anyway-that is MY opinion-others will vary I am sure.
Re: Behringer line array
So, for the inexperienced among us, what you're saying is that most anyone who knows how to properly deploy these boxes wouldn't be caught dead using B-ringer gear, and the primary market for entry level stuff like this will most certainly not invest the time and talent to set it up properly. Am I understanding properly?
What this means is it's time to double up efforts to make clients see that what's in their best interest is to put together a show people enjoy listening to and want to come back for again. There will always be those who don't look at anything but the check they have to write to a production company, but I truly believe they can be made to see the inverse relationship that exists (to an extent) between how much they pay for a PA system and how much people enjoy the sound being made.
So, for the inexperienced among us, what you're saying is that most anyone who knows how to properly deploy these boxes wouldn't be caught dead using B-ringer gear, and the primary market for entry level stuff like this will most certainly not invest the time and talent to set it up properly. Am I understanding properly?
What this means is it's time to double up efforts to make clients see that what's in their best interest is to put together a show people enjoy listening to and want to come back for again. There will always be those who don't look at anything but the check they have to write to a production company, but I truly believe they can be made to see the inverse relationship that exists (to an extent) between how much they pay for a PA system and how much people enjoy the sound being made.
Re: Behringer line array
The drama around this seems a bit thick. While I generally go out of my way to not defend Behringer, they are meeting a demand, just like the corner drug dealer trying to give his customers what they want.
It doesn't take much of a crystal ball to figure a lot of these will be poorly deployed, like so many professional LA are. These can be a cost effective tool or an expensive toy, little we can do about that. The customers are driving that ship, even onto the rocks sometimes.
Maybe Phil can sell some E-books about how to set up line arrays for dummies.
What's the worst thing that could happen, these work and sound good for typical Behringer customers?
JR
The drama around this seems a bit thick. While I generally go out of my way to not defend Behringer, they are meeting a demand, just like the corner drug dealer trying to give his customers what they want.
It doesn't take much of a crystal ball to figure a lot of these will be poorly deployed, like so many professional LA are. These can be a cost effective tool or an expensive toy, little we can do about that. The customers are driving that ship, even onto the rocks sometimes.
Maybe Phil can sell some E-books about how to set up line arrays for dummies.
What's the worst thing that could happen, these work and sound good for typical Behringer customers?
JR
Re: Behringer line array
That is not what I said. But think of it this way-people who know hor to properly use gear usually expect more information about a product before using it.
And there are ALL KINDS of "professionals" who don't understand how to properly design/deploy systems, and they use "real" gear.
Behringer is not unlike most other gear that is sold at the local music store and the customers are typically about the same. Not exactly what you would call professional.
The sad reality is that for the most part-the sound can totally suck, but most people will still enjoy the show as long the band is half decent and there are lots of blinky lights.
And those that don't like the sound, don't ask for their money back or complain-at least much anyway. And if only a small percentage complain-then why bother.
It is kinda like the bar scene. Do the bar owners really care how good the band is? No. They care about how many people the band can bring in AND how much alcohol they sell. The band can totally suck-but if the bar sales are good, the band will be hired back.
Of course that does not excuse bad sound. And there are those who like what they hear-but don't really understand what it takes to get it and are willing to pay for it.
That is not what I said. But think of it this way-people who know hor to properly use gear usually expect more information about a product before using it.
And there are ALL KINDS of "professionals" who don't understand how to properly design/deploy systems, and they use "real" gear.
Behringer is not unlike most other gear that is sold at the local music store and the customers are typically about the same. Not exactly what you would call professional.
The sad reality is that for the most part-the sound can totally suck, but most people will still enjoy the show as long the band is half decent and there are lots of blinky lights.
And those that don't like the sound, don't ask for their money back or complain-at least much anyway. And if only a small percentage complain-then why bother.
It is kinda like the bar scene. Do the bar owners really care how good the band is? No. They care about how many people the band can bring in AND how much alcohol they sell. The band can totally suck-but if the bar sales are good, the band will be hired back.
Of course that does not excuse bad sound. And there are those who like what they hear-but don't really understand what it takes to get it and are willing to pay for it.
Re: Behringer line array
THe sad thing is that most of the people who need it most would not bother because they think they know everything anyway.
Re: Behringer line array
amen. sad but true.
and the typical punter does not usually possess the necessary skills to asses WHY the sound is deemed to be good or bad. so when he comments on sound quality, the first thing he usually notices is volume/loudness. "thumping" bass is often considered to be good quality sound, high overall SPL also, at least with a lot of current pop/rock/electronic music. intelligibility and every other aspect of a good mix is not as obvious and thus hard to qualify by the unexperienced listener.
so, what do we offer our customer, what does he want?
- get yourself a lot of subwoofers, quality doesn't matter that much, they look impressive and with a lot of any sub, you probably get enough of a solid bass fundament to impress the customer.
- get yourself a linearray. it's the modern way of doing sound. you can groundstack it on your subs and have it pointed straight forward without any splay in-between cabinets, this looks the nicest and you could even put some canvas over it and use it as projection planes. no need for in- and outfills, alignment- and riggingskills or a prediction software. even a few elements of a low-quality array will get loud enough in the first few rows if you crank 'em up. if people complain to you that the sound in the back is too soft, just send them upfront then!
- stick a "bose" logo somewhere the customer can see it, for example on your mixing console. some will comment on how this must be a premium product since they remember what they paid for their home theatre system. (actually, the behringer logo might do the trick as well soon: Get the Lowdown on the Boom - Behringer Community )
:evil:
amen. sad but true.
and the typical punter does not usually possess the necessary skills to asses WHY the sound is deemed to be good or bad. so when he comments on sound quality, the first thing he usually notices is volume/loudness. "thumping" bass is often considered to be good quality sound, high overall SPL also, at least with a lot of current pop/rock/electronic music. intelligibility and every other aspect of a good mix is not as obvious and thus hard to qualify by the unexperienced listener.
so, what do we offer our customer, what does he want?
- get yourself a lot of subwoofers, quality doesn't matter that much, they look impressive and with a lot of any sub, you probably get enough of a solid bass fundament to impress the customer.
- get yourself a linearray. it's the modern way of doing sound. you can groundstack it on your subs and have it pointed straight forward without any splay in-between cabinets, this looks the nicest and you could even put some canvas over it and use it as projection planes. no need for in- and outfills, alignment- and riggingskills or a prediction software. even a few elements of a low-quality array will get loud enough in the first few rows if you crank 'em up. if people complain to you that the sound in the back is too soft, just send them upfront then!
- stick a "bose" logo somewhere the customer can see it, for example on your mixing console. some will comment on how this must be a premium product since they remember what they paid for their home theatre system. (actually, the behringer logo might do the trick as well soon: Get the Lowdown on the Boom - Behringer Community )
:evil: