60 Degree DIY Mid Hi - AKA PM60

Stef Smits

Freshman
Apr 4, 2017
76
14
8
Looking great - did you manage to find a satisfactory product and method for glueing the foam to the grille? I have this little hurdle yet to overcome!

I use some black mesh (similar to TW-audio/LA etc) it sticks pretty good to the grills I've done.
M5s2AfK.jpg
 

Albe Kohler

New member
Nov 4, 2019
8
2
3
33
San Francisco
I decided to frankenstein an Altec Lansing horn to pretty much the PM90 design, changed it a bit to accommodate the horn better (it'll get some color soon...). It was a pain to attach it and even though it's partially in the way of the sound path of the 12", it doesn't seem to affect it audibly.
I still have to tune them, but boy do they sound good already.
IMG_0929.jpeg
 

Chris Burns

Freshman
Nov 13, 2016
59
3
8
Connecticut
Need a bit of a refresh and confirmation.

If designing a MTM, the Mid/woofs edges of the cones need to be within is it one wavelength of each other to blend and not lobe or is it 1/2 wavelength at the highest crossover point to the Comp driver between them? I also dont remembe if its edge of driver cone to edge of driver cone or center of driver to center of driver measurement.

Sorry I know this is elementary but I just want to ensure Im correct in a project Im moving on.

Thanks again gang
 
Oct 25, 2018
98
10
8
59
Bideford, Devon. UK
Need a bit of a refresh and confirmation.

If designing a MTM, the Mid/woofs edges of the cones need to be within is it one wavelength of each other to blend and not lobe or is it 1/2 wavelength at the highest crossover point to the Comp driver between them? I also dont remembe if its edge of driver cone to edge of driver cone or center of driver to center of driver measurement.

Sorry I know this is elementary but I just want to ensure Im correct in a project Im moving on.

Thanks again gang
Opinion seems to vary between a quarter and a whole wavelength centre-to-centre! I would not go more than half a wavelength.
 

Jan Jaap Derksen

New member
Jul 9, 2020
9
7
3
43
Holland
Hi guys,

After long time i started again with the PM60 this week. The gole is to finish the speakers this week. Here are some pics of the building progress. I always fist make a mold witch i use for the router to copy the lines. The design is for the B&C DCX464. i made the cabinet 20mm higher. And i did some additional but i wonder who it will see......
 

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Jan Jaap Derksen

New member
Jul 9, 2020
9
7
3
43
Holland
Hi guys. Due to the Covid lock down in our country i was not able to finalize the cabinets till now. Also a proper test i could not yet do.
As you can see i build 2 cabinets with fully intergraded pascal xpro-2 amp (i bought this amp before i chanched over to the DCX464 :cry: otherwise it would be the xpro-3)and an additional dsp sound board with FIR filtering. Analog input and AES . I extend the cabinet at the back with 35mm to fit in all stuff.1609327088422.png

The speakers are B&C 12NDL76 16 ohm each and put these paralel to each other. I chose 16ohm to use the maximum power of the amp into the speakers and as you can see at the pictures i have made at the back side a speakon output for second slave cabinet. (to build in the futhure)
The B&C dcx464 i made a passive crossover at 4000hz. The exact weight of the cabinet is at the moment 38.89kg. This is pretty heavy but not as bad as i thought it will be.
 

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Last edited:
Jan 15, 2011
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Hi guys. Due to the Covid lock down in our country i was not able to finalize the cabinets till now. Also a proper test i could not yet do.
As you can see i build 2 cabinets with fully intergraded pascal xpro-2 amp (i bought this amp before i chanched over to the DCX464 :cry: otherwise it would be the xpro-3)and an additional dsp sound board with FIR filtering. Analog input and AES . I extend the cabinet at the back with 35mm to fit in all stuff.View attachment 209387

The speakers are B&C 12NDL76 16 ohm each and put these paralel to each other. I chose 16ohm to use the maximum power of the amp into the speakers and as you can see at the pictures i have made at the back side a speakon output for second slave cabinet. (to build in the futhure)
The B&C dcx464 i made a passive crossover at 4000hz. The exact weight of the cabinet is at the moment 38.89kg. This is pretty heavy but not as bad as i thought it will be.

Dude do you have a huge snake in your backyard?


 
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tizian poto

New member
Dec 30, 2020
1
0
1
35
switzerland
hi all,

a verry nice loudspeaker.

i d like to build two. after a long period of research i have still 2 questions,

1. are there some cad plans for the trapezoid box design?

2. i d like to build this with the eighteensound xr1464c horn to have the possibility to turn the horn 90* to run the box horizontal for smaller locations where the stage or ceiling ist not that high. anyone tried this?

greetings from wintery switzeland.
 

Peter Morris

Senior
May 8, 2011
1,055
140
63
Australia
Hi Tizian - (1) yes there are CAD plans I can send you. Send me PM (2) not sure about the XR1464c, to get this design to work correctly you don't really want to cross over any higher than 700Hz, that may be a bit low for the XR1464, but I have not tried it. Its fine for the HF950 (90 degree version) and the XT1464.

The other issue is that the dipole arrangement of the two horn exits controls the vertical directivity. If you turn the box 90* the horizonal pattern will be a bit narrow around 500Hz ... but it will still work.
 

Chris Burns

Freshman
Nov 13, 2016
59
3
8
Connecticut
Peter, before I begin embarking on cutting wood, compatibility of the Ciare 12NDH-4 in a PM design? By compatible I mean it would exceed the performance of a NDL76, and make the extra 1/3 cost worth while or wasted.

The high BL and the QTS/MMS actually look pretty favorable (from my untrained eye)

I may be switching gears from the PMA to the PM series and utilizing this driver. Not entirely sure yet.

Finally, thoughts on ever trying the Ciare 60/40 in lieu of the XT1464 with its improved voicing qualities and more robust VHF control?

Thanks much.


Sent from my iPhone
 
Last edited:

Peter Morris

Senior
May 8, 2011
1,055
140
63
Australia
A couple of comments ...

The quick sim I did indicates the 12NDH-4 would be one of the best choices you can get for the PM90/60.

If you use the XT1464 horn in the standard configuration only BMS driver will fit. (also check that the 4594 will still fit with the 12NDH-4).

B&C DCX464 /HF950 will fit I think, but check. Also the 464 with the PR614 may fit - but check I have not tried it.

I think the Ciare PR614 is possibly a better horn than the XT1464 ... BUT ... the XT1464 is bigger and goes lower which is an advantage in the PM60.

The difference between the PMA60 and the PM60 is the mids (100 - 700Hz} have a 5-6 dB output advantage.
 
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Chris Burns

Freshman
Nov 13, 2016
59
3
8
Connecticut
A couple of comments ...

The quick sim I did indicates the 12NDH-4 would be one of the best choices you can get for the PM90/60.

If you use the XT1464 horn in the standard configuration only BMS driver will fit. (also check that the 4594 will still fit with the 12NDH-4).

B&C DCX464 /HF950 will fit I think, but check. Also the 464 with the PR614 may fit - but check I have not tried it.

I think the Ciare PR614 is possibly a better horn than the XT1464 ... BUT ... the XT1464 is bigger and goes lower which is an advantage in the PM60.

The difference between the PMA60 and the PM60 is the mids (100 - 700Hz} have a 5-6 dB output advantage.

Thanks much Peter. I’m pivoting and going 4 PM boxes with the Ciare. I think the voicing and quality in the midrange will be phenomenal.

Im going to try both horns. I am ok with going to a 675hz XO on the horn if the Ciare is a better quality. My 4594 at 450hz on the 1464 wasnt spectaular, it seemed stressed at higher SPLs and I raised it to 600 with much better results overall. That Ciare has an amazing pattern and tonally I think with the 12 it will really be somethinh special.

I’m also going to try a DE1090 on both horns for comparison, only because I would love to see and hear the overall difference in an A/B.

I need to look very closely at the driver dimensions for fitment. The magnet diameter seems wider on the Ciare which could be an issue (I hope not). That Ill do today.

I’m working with some local folks on a CNC project for it. If I can bring it all together I will for sure offer flat packs for sale to members here in the US.

Thanks again Peter. Al seemed to think and agree the Ciare will be an awesome choice for the design, glad you agree.


Sent from my iPhone