Is iLive the biggest/best digital for the money?

Re: Is iLive the biggest/best digital for the money?

Well considering that the versarrays aren't paid for yet, I'll probably have them for a while longer LOL. I was joking about the 4889's.....I am interested in the new DB technologies T12 which is supposed to be a step in the more pro direction from the T4. According to the specs its a tri amped/long throw box with a 12" (2) 6.5" and 1" horn and weighs just 64lbs which is great for people like us who depend exclusively on crank-up lifts. A friend runs a 24 box T4 system and claims that you cannot blow it up!
 
Re: Is iLive the biggest/best digital for the money?

Brandon Blakeney said:
Well considering that the versarrays aren't paid for yet, I'll probably have them for a while longer LOL. I was joking about the 4889's.....I am interested in the new DB technologies T12 which is supposed to be a step in the more pro direction from the T4. According to the specs its a tri amped/long throw box with a 12" (2) 6.5" and 1" horn and weighs just 64lbs which is great for people like us who depend exclusively on crank-up lifts. A friend runs a 24 box T4 system and claims that you cannot blow it up!
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Brandon, I recall your discussion about the Versarray over on the PSW forums a couple of years ago. I posted a couple of replies that, IIRC, basically said "you're buying a rig that you will quickly outgrow." I'm not posting today to say "I told you so" mostly because you aren't at that point, yet... but you will be. Evan's observations about the VR112 are spot on. When the VR112 came out I really *wanted* it to be something it isn't - a versatile box that scales up well. It's limited in what it can do because it doesn't scale well and because the ribbon HF is too fragile to sustain continued operation at the top 20% of it's design. Add in the inability to make "J" arrays without having extremely granular processing and power and we find the Versarray isn't very versatile. It can do some things well; the rest not so much or at all.

My question is "do you want to make the same decision about a console?" The iLive isn't a bad desk but it isn't a *desired* desk among BEs. I've said before that if the owner or his staff are the exclusive operators of a piece, then buy whatever makes you happy. If others are using that item, buy what THEY prefer. Remember these are TOOLS that we capitalists use to get more money, not a really big stereo system that benefits the ego of the owner.

If I were in your situation, I'd strongly consider the M7 simply because visiting BEs are very likely to have their show on a USB stick. It will make their day easier which will make your day easier if they don't need to learn a new console. But again, if your situation is such that you or your crew operate the desk 98% of the time you should buy whatever makes your balance sheet work and your ears happy.

Have fun, happy mixing.

Tim Mc

ps. FWIW, we looked at the VR112, VR212, EAW KF730 & 760, Adamson Y-Axis, Nexo Geo S and several others. We bought VerTec 4889 and then added VerTec 4887.
 
Re: Is iLive the biggest/best digital for the money?

I might end up buying an M7 because they have saturated the market and are starting to become cheap on the used market. Price is always my biggest obstacle, not because I'm cheap but because my customers are frugal. Its not completely their fault as the economy is pretty bad right now, this in turn causes competing sound companies to underbid each other sometimes severely just to have business. I'm fortunate in that I don't do this full time and have another job.

I think step one will be to replace my EWI snake with something more "pro" with disconnects and then maybe an M7.
 
Re: Is iLive the biggest/best digital for the money?

Caleb Dick said:
I've used both M7 and iLive, would take iLive any day. I'm also wondering why the animosity. For those that have actually used it a few times and dislike it - why specifically?
Caleb
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I should start by mentioning that I am affiliated with Yamaha part time. In my full time job as Pa-company owner and operator I've used an LS9-32 for 5 years now, I think.

That being said in my, albeit limited, experience with the iLive, I can see the value is great with the seperate mix rack and so on (I use Rocknet with my LS9).

But: What I have been missing on the iLive has been:

Expanders on inputs. One of the gigs I've had on it was a choir miked with lav mics on the cheeks and for that and musical theater stuff, I don't know what I would do if I didn't have expanders on inputs.

The EQ is limited in the frequency ranges of the individual bands. Very often I like to have two narrow bands in the same part of the spectrum, which the iLive won't always allow for.

I've also had mute groups assigned to the soft buttons, but they don't display the status of the mute group (muted or unmuted).

The scribble pad displays are great (would love that on my own console), but when the 5 characters are used (which is not much btw.), I can't see channel numbers anywhere, which has been a major pain.

Also, I'm not crazy about the space station mission control design.
 
Re: Is iLive the biggest/best digital for the money?

Frederik -

1. No expanders in inputs - I'll give you that one, though in the 5+ years I mixed on my Ls9-32 I never needed one...
2. iLive channel eq is either "limited" full parametric, or 20-20khz full parametric, your choice.
3. Mute groups on the iLive are made from DCAs, operating them thusly shows up as lighted LEDs on the assigned channels and with a lit LED on the soft button.
4. 5 characters on the electronic "scribble pad" works for me, there's even a page on the screen with pre-typed names (you know - "tpt", "sax", "OH>", etc.) and if I need to see the channel number I press ONE button ("alt view")

I liked my LS9, it served me well for almost 6 years, but moving up to the iLives (T112+idr48, R72+idr32) has been well worth the larger investment for me.

I think the OP should bear 2 things in mind - First - travelling engineers with riders are probably not as ignorant about today's common digital offerings as he might think, and even more importantly, for a $10k budget, he's probably not going to get any of the consoles he's considering anyway...
(edit spelling)
-Tim T
 
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Re: Is iLive the biggest/best digital for the money?

Frederik Rosenkjær said:
I should start by mentioning that I am affiliated with Yamaha part time. In my full time job as Pa-company owner and operator I've used an LS9-32 for 5 years now, I think.

That being said in my, albeit limited, experience with the iLive, I can see the value is great with the seperate mix rack and so on (I use Rocknet with my LS9).

But: What I have been missing on the iLive has been:

Expanders on inputs. One of the gigs I've had on it was a choir miked with lav mics on the cheeks and for that and musical theater stuff, I don't know what I would do if I didn't have expanders on inputs.

The EQ is limited in the frequency ranges of the individual bands. Very often I like to have two narrow bands in the same part of the spectrum, which the iLive won't always allow for.

I've also had mute groups assigned to the soft buttons, but they don't display the status of the mute group (muted or unmuted).

The scribble pad displays are great (would love that on my own console), but when the 5 characters are used (which is not much btw.), I can't see channel numbers anywhere, which has been a major pain.

Also, I'm not crazy about the space station mission control design.
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Hi Frederik,

Agreed, expanders would be nice. Having comp and gate, and de-ess or limiter, makes lack of expander a smaller issue though.

The iLive has option for full 20-20k for all bands, selectable separately on inputs and outputs. I wish 20-20k were the default.

The LED next to the soft keys is soft as well, and can show status of mutes. I use the soft keys/LED's as DCA mutes, with status. The little red LED on each channel that shows channel mute or DCA mute is great.

For ch numbers, the alt view button helps. I really don't like how physical input 16 is shown as B8, 22 is C6, etc. If mixing on DCA's primarily, with colors used well, I don't miss channel numbers. I need input ports for patching (alt view button patched for this), but not so much channels.

The layout is definitely not Yamaha-esque, but that isn't bad. M7 and lower especially have an old/early 'feel' to me; I may be in the minority here. I grew up on Yamaha digital like many others, btw.

The mix buttons are powerful, one of the greatest features in my opinion.

The greatest obstacle to getting comfortable on the iLive - unlearning the Yamaha mindset most of us have. For training brand new techs, the iLive is much easier than any other surface I have used other than Vistonics.
 
Re: Is iLive the biggest/best digital for the money?

Caleb Dick said:
Hi Frederik,

Agreed, expanders would be nice. Having comp and gate, and de-ess or limiter, makes lack of expander a smaller issue though.

The iLive has option for full 20-20k for all bands, selectable separately on inputs and outputs. I wish 20-20k were the default.

The LED next to the soft keys is soft as well, and can show status of mutes. I use the soft keys/LED's as DCA mutes, with status. The little red LED on each channel that shows channel mute or DCA mute is great.

For ch numbers, the alt view button helps. I really don't like how physical input 16 is shown as B8, 22 is C6, etc. If mixing on DCA's primarily, with colors used well, I don't miss channel numbers. I need input ports for patching (alt view button patched for this), but not so much channels.

The layout is definitely not Yamaha-esque, but that isn't bad. M7 and lower especially have an old/early 'feel' to me; I may be in the minority here. I grew up on Yamaha digital like many others, btw.

The mix buttons are powerful, one of the greatest features in my opinion.

The greatest obstacle to getting comfortable on the iLive - unlearning the Yamaha mindset most of us have. For training brand new techs, the iLive is much easier than any other surface I have used other than Vistonics.
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+ 1

I have an iLive 144 and 80 … love them!

FWIW I have A/B the M7 and iLive. I was not expecting to hear much difference but the iLive sounded noticeably better. The effects also sounded much much better than the Yamaha – I was quite surprised…. and I have to say that the cat 5 multicore / control cable for a hire company is fantastic. Not having to lug around a big piece of copper cable is such a time, space and weight saver.

In many ways the 144 is better compared to the PM5D than the M7.


Peter
 
Re: Is iLive the biggest/best digital for the money?

I think the iLive is extraordinary value for money. Although i'd personally never pick one over Digigo/Midas/Soundcraft vi/Venue/PM5D/M7 (in that order) for ergonomic reasons, they do sound pretty good and a 48ch rack + t112 lists at less than half the price of an M7!!

They are a pretty good deal i reckon, but not particularly rider friendly because they haven't enjoyed the same popularity as the other big names in digi consoles.

I think though, overall, when it comes to price/performance ratio, its very hard to beat Digico. All their consoles from the SD9 and up are fantastic value considering their massive processing power and large I/O counts.

Re the comments about soundcraft? I honestly cant believe anyone who's used a Vi could accuse them of being poorly built??? Its basically a Studer for less money. The physical manufacturing tolerances put most other companies to shame and the preamps (being studers) sound fantastic - some of the best out there...
 
Re: Is iLive the biggest/best digital for the money?

Brandon Blakeney said:
I'm sure that the M7CL is more rider friendly, but is significantly more expensive with a digital snake. Are there any major objections here to an iLive system??
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YAO! (Yet another opinion)

I've been using an iLive T series for over two years now. Out of all the equipment I've owned, I wouldn't trade it for anything else.

Reasons it's great:
1) Price/performance/features ratio - you won't get a better deal on sound quality and versatility anywhere
2) no hassle "digital snake" - no "optional" digital snake, it's built in, uses widely available Cat 5 that you can snag at H-D or Lowe's in a pinch
3) Robust design - if you lose the snake during a show (not that this has happened) the MixRack continues to pass audio.
4) Interface is simple, but not Fisher-Price
5) Expandable - can add 16 channel extenders or additional MixRacks (I could envision a small company having a 16 channel and a 32 channel unit etc. and linking them for a bigger show.
6) Compatibility - no matter the console or the rack (T series, R series, or "BIGBOY" sized) they all play together as long as they have ACE port cards.
7) Good PC based editor, open Ethernet control standards (i.e. roll your own custome control for an install. Anyone??), adequate iPad app, though it needs a little work to be more stable.
8. Completely re-configurable - groups, auxes, stereo, mono, LCR, LRSub, monitors, FOH, both. Whatever you throw at it, it can do it.

Reasons it sucks
1) For whatever reason it lacks wide acceptability on riders. I don't know why, I don't really play the "provider" role in that market much now-a-days. (Though I must say, I've seen a lot of shows go off with out a hitch with moderately big names using much poorer analog equipment.)

Places that need a little improvement
1) the iPad app is on the slow side and a little unreliable. I wouldn't want to mix a show without either the surface set up somewhere or a laptop running the desktop application. I don't think anyone wants to mix shows in that manner anyway.
2) I hesitate to even mention this because I haven't had any issues with it, but I guess just having a lot of experience with electronic gear from all industries, sometimes I worry a little. The build quality of the T series is noticeably inferior to the BIGBOY series. Basically, the fix for this is buy a good case. This mainly speaks to the casing/frame not the buttons, faders, or knobs, or the quality of the electronic components themselves. Again, no issues as of yet, but if you are on a heavy duty tour, the T series is probably not for you unless you have MIL spec cases.
3) Re-configuring the mixer for more/less auxes/groups/etc takes a while. It's not something you'd EVER do mid-show... and not something I'd want to be scrambling to do in a pinch. Make sure you have some preset shows that you've worked the bugs out of on a thumb drive if you need to reconfigure the board for different acts/events in the same day. Scene saves/recalls are nearly instantaneous.
4) Mix selection indication needs to be more obvious. Even after two years, I find myself adjusting a fader, realizing I was in the wrong mix. I think if you are in anything but the main mix it should flash all the mix lights or something.
5) Clip light hold. One feature I love is that there are clip lights next to the bank (layer/page) selection buttons. If the kick drum clips on bank A and you are on bank D, the clip light flashes next to the bank A button. However, switching to that bank gives no indication of which channel clipped. I think it should hold the peak light for a few seconds after you switch banks.
6) Music record/playback - I'd love to be able to record a stereo mix straight to a USB drive or something during a show but even better... MP3 playback from a USB drive would be really sweet.
 
Re: Is iLive the biggest/best digital for the money?

Chris Johnson said:
I think the iLive is extraordinary value for money. Although i'd personally never pick one over Digigo/Midas/Soundcraft vi/Venue/PM5D/M7 (in that order) for ergonomic reasons, they do sound pretty good and a 48ch rack + t112 lists at less than half the price of an M7!!
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Really?? I poked around a bit and it seemed to me that the street price of the ILive is more than the street price of the M7.
 
Re: Is iLive the biggest/best digital for the money?

i think if you stack up the two pound for pound, they are quite similar in price. the M7CL-48ES is pretty comparable to an iLive T-112 with a iDR48 rack. but, there are so many different ways to configure an iLive system. whereas the M7 is available in only 2 different channel counts and 2 different I/Os [analog and digital]. depending on what you need, an iLive could be more expensive than an M7, or quite a bit less....
 
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Re: Is iLive the biggest/best digital for the money?

brian maddox said:
it's tough to equate the two price wise. there are so many different ways to configure an iLive system. whereas the M7 is available in only 2 different channel counts and 2 different I/Os [analog and digital]. depending on what you need, an iLive could be more expensive than an M7, or quite a bit less....
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I was asking specifically about the 48-channel rack and the T112, which it seems MAP on the pair is north of $20K, with street price on the M748 being $17500 or so. My numbers are probably off, but I was pretty surprised at the report that this config of the ILive is half the price of an M7. If I could get the T112 and the 48-channel mixrack for $10K, I'd own it tomorrow.
 
Re: Is iLive the biggest/best digital for the money?

TJ Cornish said:
I was asking specifically about the 48-channel rack and the T112, which it seems MAP on the pair is north of $20K, with street price on the M748 being $17500 or so. My numbers are probably off, but I was pretty surprised at the report that this config of the ILive is half the price of an M7. If I could get the T112 and the 48-channel mixrack for $10K, I'd own it tomorrow.
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agreed. in fact, i edited my response after i wrote it to reflect that reality...

if i could get a t112 with a 48 channel rack for 10K, i'd go ahead and break out the credit card too... :)
 
Re: Is iLive the biggest/best digital for the money?

I read the comment as 'apples to apples, the iLive costs a lot less'. An M7-ES with SB boxes compared to a T112/48 - the iLive costs less.
 
Re: Is iLive the biggest/best digital for the money?

Jay Barracato said:
...there will always be a lag between a piece of equipment appearing on the market and it becoming acceptable on riders...
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...Or it never becomes acceptable on riders.

I think we are way past the expiration date on the iLive. It will continue to be a perfectly functional decent sounding board, but it will never be popular among touring engineers.
 
Re: Is iLive the biggest/best digital for the money?

brian maddox said:
i think if you stack up the two pound for pound, they are quite similar in price. the M7CL-48ES is pretty comparable to an iLive T-112 with a iDR48 rack. but, there are so many different ways to configure an iLive system. whereas the M7 is available in only 2 different channel counts and 2 different I/Os [analog and digital]. depending on what you need, an iLive could be more expensive than an M7, or quite a bit less....
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At thomann in germany, the ilive-t112, idr48, case, and cat5 cable comes to 5k€ less than just a yammy m7cl48. M7cl48es with equivalent digital i/o racks is 12k€ more than the 15k€ ilive package. i havent played with anything bigger than a ls9-32 (tho I once had an hour with a Vi4 in a providers warehouse), but the control layout of the ilive surfaces looks more interesting (in theory!)to me than any of the knob matrices virtually every other surface features.
 
Re: Is iLive the biggest/best digital for the money?

Brandon Blakeney said:
Anybody have experience with CBI star performer series? seems to be a little cheaper than ramtech.....
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Hi Brandon,

We've been using CBI Star Performer multis for about 9 years. Had to do.....maybe 3 repairs.... in that time. Solid product.

Chur,
Andy.
 
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