Listening Get Together

re: Listening Get Together

Doug Hart said:
Wow, it always baffles me how people .................. are always experts on things they know nothing about.
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Go stand in front of the mirror and repeat the above until you understand.

These Forums are filled with very experienced, top industry professionals as well as the rest of us.

Bullshit will be called......
 
re: Listening Get Together

You have three posts here and you are making claims that defy conventional wisdom, and you weren't even prudent enough to present real, non anecdotal, evidence to back up those claims.

I already said that I hope some guys that have some real tenure here can check it out and offer their insight, maybe these cabs are the bee's knees. I'm always skeptical when I see "line array in a box" claims, nothing personal.
 
re: Listening Get Together

Doug Hart said:
Wow, it always baffles me how people are so judgmental and are always experts on things they know nothing about.
I'm trying to have a friendly conversation and tell you what I observed and... well... I see no need to be rude about things.
Of course I had test equipment there and used it in other tests, I just did not feel like dragging everything out 300' for that particular one.
Just stating what I observed at 300'. It sounded great and the drop in volume was not what was expected.

Of course the inventors have taken extensive measurements, but I was just speaking from my point of view.
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Hi Doug-

You're dealing with a tough room here. Lots of us have been around the block, fell off the turnip truck and still hitched a ride to the next gig. ;)

Anyone making "line array" type claims better be ready with measurements... magnitude and phase, and at different distances. Not being jerks, but saying "okay, you make the claim you prove the claim."

If I'm off that day I'll try to get down to Oklahoma with my Smaart rig.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
 
re: Listening Get Together

Dick Rees said:
Go stand in front of the mirror and repeat the above until you understand.
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That's exactly what I was talking about. I see no need to be rude.

These Forums are filled with very experienced, top industry professionals as well as the rest of us.
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I don't doubt that fact at all

Bullshit will be called......
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...and expected. I called it too until I heard them for myself.
 
re: Listening Get Together

Tim McCulloch said:
Hi Doug-

You're dealing with a tough room here. Lots of us have been around the block, fell off the turnip truck and still hitched a ride to the next gig. ;)

Anyone making "line array" type claims better be ready with measurements... magnitude and phase, and at different distances. Not being jerks, but saying "okay, you make the claim you prove the claim."

If I'm off that day I'll try to get down to Oklahoma with my Smaart rig.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
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Thank you Tim, that's the kind of response that I expected to get when dealing with professionals.
I do hope that you can make it down. I don't have much experience with scientific measurements, so it would be great to have a Smaart rig there with someone who knows how to run it.
To be honest, the "line array" claims are cool, but they are on the bottom of the list of what first drew me to these cabs.
Top of the list is simply the way they sound. No meters, no measurement, just listening. They sound great.
 
re: Listening Get Together

Doug Hart said:
Of course I had test equipment there and used it in other tests, I just did not feel like dragging everything out 300' for that particular one.
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Doug Hart said:
I don't have much experience with scientific measurements, so it would be great to have a Smaart rig there with someone who knows how to run it.
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Maybe I'm missing something here... :roll:
 
re: Listening Get Together

Doug Hart said:
Not missing anything Steve. I have some experience, just not a lot.
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Doug....

This is not a personal shot, just a general observation linking an old adage. I hope you can see the humor as that is my only intention.
 

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re: Listening Get Together

Dick Rees said:
Doug....

This is not a personal shot, just a general observation linking an old adage. I hope you can see the humor as that is my only intention.
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Dick...
I agree with that statement, but we all have to start somewhere.
I have been in the audio trenches for well over 20 years, I just haven't (until recently) got into the computerized measurements and all of that.
Tim said earlier "lots of us have been around the block". That is true of most of us, it just might not have been the same block.
 
re: Listening Get Together

Hey Tim, the offer still stands. I will bring cabs to Wichita for you to wring their necks if you like. Not sure I have time to do it before the event, but I would certainly try. Makes brownie points with the significant other too. :-)
I'd LOVE to see SMAART traces for these.
 
Doug Hart said:
I have been in the audio trenches for well over 20 years, I just haven't (until recently) got into the computerized measurements and all of that.
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Doug,

Always great to have another long time audio human join the board. That's what it's all about.

I think you'll find that this board is a little different from some others you may have experienced. A large portion of our active members make their living full time from pro audio. Some of them are the finest loudspeaker designers working today. Some of them even have doctorate level degrees in the physics of acoustics. Many without such distinction are extremely accomplished system, mix, RF, and measurement technicians - often all at the same time, as is the trend today.

So when you come on strong in a new community and find that this group of professional and amateur audio scientists knows acoustic impedance from a hole in the ground, I understand you might be a little surprised at your welcome. Acoustic measurement is within the reach of almost anyone today, and so a good portion of this forum's readership is aware not only of how to do it, but also how large and small arrays behave on and off axis.

There is no box on the planet that sounds the same at 300' as it does at 50'. Perhaps this is the first. If it is, then you're going to need more than self confidence to convince a group of people who knows pretty well how monumental a challenge that is.

I hope you stay and continue to participate in these forums. We will certainly not hold the position that we have nothing to learn from you, but you must be prepared to show the same respect if you wish to have a constructive and interesting discussion.
 
re: Listening Get Together

Doug Hart said:
Wow, it always baffles me how people are so judgmental and are always experts on things they know nothing about.
I'm trying to have a friendly conversation and tell you what I observed and... well... I see no need to be rude about things.
Of course I had test equipment there and used it in other tests, I just did not feel like dragging everything out 300' for that particular one.
Just stating what I observed at 300'. It sounded great and the drop in volume was not what was expected.

Of course the inventors have taken extensive measurements, but I was just speaking from my point of view.
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Do you have any of the other measurements you made? Such as freq response on and off axis. Maybe at different distances to support the 3dB loss claim?

Something OTHER than a SPL meter. Even an RTA would be a huge step up the "measurement" chain.

One of my big "grips" with line arrays is not the SPL over distance-but rather the FREQUENCY response over distance. The 3dB/doubling of distance is TOTALLY dependent upon the physical size of the array. A short array will only exhibit that to only the top 1 or 2 octaves for a short distance. After that it reverts to a normal 6dB loss. People just like to "forget" that.

I wonder that the cabinet in question gets around that.
 
re: Listening Get Together

Ivan Beaver said:
Do you have any of the other measurements you made? Such as freq response on and off axis. Maybe at different distances to support the 3dB loss claim? Something OTHER than a SPL meter. Even an RTA would be a huge step up the "measurement" chain.
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I don't at this point. We will be doing some measurements at the listening party and I hope that Tim is able to make it down with his Smaart rig. That way, we can get some really accurate measurements and see what is going on. So hopefully, we will have some concrete measurements to share in the next couple of weeks.

One of my big "grips" with line arrays is not the SPL over distance-but rather the FREQUENCY response over distance. The 3dB/doubling of distance is TOTALLY dependent upon the physical size of the array. A short array will only exhibit that to only the top 1 or 2 octaves for a short distance. After that it reverts to a normal 6dB loss. People just like to "forget" that.
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Agreed. It takes a really long array to exhibit the 3db/doubling effect at lower frequencies. Long enough that it is impractical for all but the large venues.
We will be setup in a gym for the listening party, so we should be able to get measurements up to about 100' away. Hopefully, that will tell the story.

I wonder that the cabinet in question gets around that.
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I wish I knew. Hopefully through time and testing, that question can be answered.
It's going to take someone with more knowledge than me to figure it out tho.
 
re: Listening Get Together

Frederik Rosenkjær said:
Indoors won't work. You'll be in the diffuse field halfway down, and the level won't decrease at all, which will happen with any speaker.
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That darn basic physics again.

It is amazing how many customers (and manufacturers) like to "ignore" the basics. But that doesn't stop them from making claims.

And this goes to the HIGHEST LEVELS of the industry.

It is amazing what we are supposed to "believe". :( With no data or proof. We are XYZ company-just "trust" what we say.
 
re: Listening Get Together

Waiting for spring. I have 20 acres of nothing, no trees, nothing, just pasture. 1/2 mile from the closest lightly traveled highway. Closest house is almost 1/8 mile away. Just as soon as I can get in with a brush mower to clear last years growth measurements will show up. I have taken them behind my shop, but ambient is a problem. I can't defend properly what I've measured back there. They indicate what Doug is saying, but I know this crowd, even if I don't post much. I lurk a lot, learning and listening. Until I get really hard numbers that allow me to defend the test protocol and area, not publishing them. So it may be a couple of months before hard numbers show up.

Or maybe not. It's 60 frickin' degrees in Kansas in Feb. Nuts.

I will post curve I trust. It's a nice little 2x5 studio monitor or home system that will evolve into a small line array cab with different drivers.
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