Listening Get Together

re: Listening Get Together

Jeff Babcock said:
Great point Ivan. I remember my early days in audio when measurement systems were just beginning to catch on....I came to this realization while trying to push the limits of a mediocre DIY system. I thought I would just measure (RTA)the response of a much better system, and EQ my system the same way. The light went on when the 2 nearly identical responses from the 2 systems sounded nothing like one another. And that was just ON AXIS.......

:lol:

I'm not suggesting that Leland doesn't already realize this. Leland has told me a bit about these new cabs in the past, and I am interested to see more detailed information become available. Many great ideas started out as crazy ideas. I prefer "cautious optimism" as a modus operandi as opposed to outright skepticism.
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Year ago we were doing the first install of a relatively famous manufacturers new cabinet design. It was a 3 way biamped cabinet-with a passive mid/high crossover inside.

I noticed a huge (12dB) hole around 1500Hz. Surely that isn't correct-so I called the manufacturer and spoke to the designer (no names will be mentioned here). He sent me his measurements-and they SHOWED THE SAME HOLE! Well that is a good start anyway-we both got the same data.

He said I just needed to put a 12dB boost and that would "fix" the problem. I didn't like doing that-so I went back to the shop and took apart one of the cabinets (another one for the next install) and redid the crossover to reduce the size of the dip to just a couple dB. So now a small boost was all that was needed to get it to where I wanted it.

You should not "willy nilly" go around "whacking away" at a system. Sometimes you have to dig a little bit deeper to get better results and not just jump at the first "obvious" answer.
 
re: Listening Get Together

I completely realize the limitations of using dsp to correct the cab. But it saves hours of time swapping in and out components. That still happens, but at least it gives me a very good starting point. Analog xovers never quite correspond to what you do with the dsp. I don't know if any of you are familiar with the Digmoda dsp, but it's quite powerful. A really useful design tool for quick testing and changes. You can change on the fly instantly.

I ran only changes that could be done in the analog realm.

Unfortunately I derailed my own thread. I will have these and many more at the get together in OK. Please come. Bring whatever measuring gear you'd care to use. Bring whatever cabs you'd like to compare. The more the merrier.
 
re: Listening Get Together

Leland Crooks said:
Unfortunately I derailed my own thread. I will have these and many more at the get together in OK. Please come.
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Leland,

By "these and many more", do you mean the 2x5 studio monitor that is 15 dB down at 1000 Hz compared to 10,000 Hz, and the bass guitar cabinets described on the talkbass forum where you and Mike Arnopol repeatedly promised measurements that never materialized?
Or the PA cabs that you think are going to change the industry?

I especially enjoyed reading Duke LeJune's comment from 9/13/12:
"Well I guess we're in violation of your expectations because we haven't had TIME to do the measurements you want yet..
By the time the backwave energy emerges from the enclosure, sufficient time delay has been imposed that the ear/brain system doesn't classify it as part of the first-arrival sound."

In other words, the cabinet provides a discreet echo in addition to the initial output.

I'd enjoy seeing impulse, phase and frequency response of a full range cabinet with that feature, of course it does not seem anyone involved with the design or manufacture of Big E speakers has the time or inclination to bother with such trivial pursuits.

Art
 
re: Listening Get Together

The Vortex Wave is explained in depth in this video.

Big E Loudspeakers - Vortex Wave Illustration - YouTube

"""The Vortex wave emitted by the port flares is one of the critical elements of the Manipulated Vortex Waveguide cabinet. He is a video that shows the vortex passing in the port flare ordering the sawdust into a regular pattern. This video was shot looking inside a dual 18 test prototype model 218SLVX subwoofer cabinet. However, the event occurs in all of our MVW cabinets. Our line or products can be purchased at speakerhardware.com """

As far as I can tell it orders sawdust to move in a regular pattern. Not only in this cabinet but all of the MVW cabinets.
This would be usefull as all the sawdust in my cabinets don't move in a regular pattern.

In this video the girl has never heard low feedback rumble come through before. She is so happy she plugs her ear and gives a happy look to thank the sound person! Nice. I do want this from my system.

Big E Loudspeakers - Good PA - YouTube

Douglas R. Allen
 
re: Listening Get Together

So I wrote this long post and the forum logged me out for inactivity and I lost it.
The 2x5's are fixed. Stupid mistake on my part when I calculated the cap. I have to ship them, but I have more under construction. I am running holm impulse until I have bucks for arta. Tell me what you want for settings and I will run it when I finish the new ones. Not posting another chart to be vilified for setup, so you tell me.

Yes it will all be there. Bring any test gear you want. Yes we did jump the gun on talk bass.
 
re: Listening Get Together

Douglas R. Allen said:
The Vortex Wave is explained in depth in this video.

Big E Loudspeakers - Vortex Wave Illustration - YouTube

"""The Vortex wave emitted by the port flares is one of the critical elements of the Manipulated Vortex Waveguide cabinet. He is a video that shows the vortex passing in the port flare ordering the sawdust into a regular pattern. This video was shot looking inside a dual 18 test prototype model 218SLVX subwoofer cabinet. However, the event occurs in all of our MVW cabinets. Our line or products can be purchased at speakerhardware.com """

As far as I can tell it orders sawdust to move in a regular pattern. Not only in this cabinet but all of the MVW cabinets.
This would be usefull as all the sawdust in my cabinets don't move in a regular pattern.

In this video the girl has never heard low feedback rumble come through before. She is so happy she plugs her ear and gives a happy look to thank the sound person! Nice. I do want this from my system.

Big E Loudspeakers - Good PA - YouTube

Douglas R. Allen
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Maybe I am missing something-but where did it "explain" the vortex? Especially in depth? What would be the theory behind it?

And maybe I am missing something in the second video. Low freq feedback is supposed to be something "special"? Why would she like feedback?

Most sound guys try to avoid feedback. A high pass filter is your friend.
 
re: Listening Get Together

Ivan Beaver said:
Maybe I am missing something-but where did it "explain" the vortex? Especially in depth? What would be the theory behind it?

And maybe I am missing something in the second video. Low freq feedback is supposed to be something "special"? Why would she like feedback?

Most sound guys try to avoid feedback. A high pass filter is your friend.
Click to expand...


Elemental Voice has some products that can help control the feedback.
Elemental Voice Hi-Fi Products
 
re: Listening Get Together

Leland Crooks said:
Yes we did jump the gun on talk bass.
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No that was the perfect place for you to go, all you need is one person to sing your praises on that forum and you are a god(and you have that there). Then all the lemmings come out of the wood work to back you because they believe everything that someone says on that forum. Just watch all the band wagon jumpers that will follow your claims(and I have watched), the same ones that swore Ampeg was the best, then Eden, Then Aguilar, Then Genz Benz, Then Mark Bass, etc, etc, etc,.
Don't worry, your products will sell well on that forum until the next best thing on the planet comes along (which should be in about 2-3 Talk Bass weeks) then everyone will switch to the new guy on the block again.
It was a genius move on your part.
 
re: Listening Get Together

Vinny D'Agostino said:
No that was the perfect place for you to go, all you need is one person to sing your praises on that forum and you are a god(and you have that there). Then all the lemmings come out of the wood work to back you because they believe everything that someone says on that forum. Just watch all the band wagon jumpers that will follow your claims(and I have watched), the same ones that swore Ampeg was the best, then Eden, Then Aguilar, Then Genz Benz, Then Mark Bass, etc, etc, etc,.
Don't worry, your products will sell well on that forum until the next best thing on the planet comes along (which should be in about 2-3 Talk Bass weeks) then everyone will switch to the new guy on the block again.
It was a genius move on your part.
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Vinny you basshole!
 
re: Listening Get Together

Rob Timmerman said:
What's wrong with using cheap materials for prototypes?
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It depends on what you are trying to do/accomplish with the prototype.

The difference in baltic birch and regular plywood is that it is much stronger. And how that matters in a bass cabinet is that the stiffer the wood-the less flex it has (hence the need for bracing in a sub cabinet). When the pieces of wood are flexing (and they do that even at a low SPL level-just harder to see/feel it), they are absorbing sound.

And when the cabinet is absorbing sound-there is less coming out the front-towards the audience.

So when the panels/walls are flexing-the output will be lower and the freq response could change (depending on the freq of the flexing).

So when doing measurements-you may not end up with what the target was.

Now some cheaper materials are fine for prototypes. Their problem may be that they don't hold up well on the road. That is fine for a prototype-who cares.

So when making the choice of what materials to use (or to save money on a prototype), it is important to understand the consequences of those choices and whether or not it will affect the outcome you are trying to achieve.
 
re: Listening Get Together

Vinny D'Agostino said:
No that was the perfect place for you to go, all you need is one person to sing your praises on that forum and you are a god(and you have that there).
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I have not sold a cab. Not one. Haven't tried. Yet. Mike Arnopol does the bass cabs.
Everything I do is baltic birch.
RACHEFRONT.jpg
Better?
I'm going to stick a HiFinator in front of my vortex cabs and see if I can set off the tornado sirens in town.
 
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