Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Cole Lofink said:
Meeting just ended, client says " Your competition is going to include ALL labor and trucking for FREE, hope you can as well". You just spent 4 hours with this guy and he says that! Now your heads going to explode, and you want scream "FREE! REALLY! WTF!" but you don't. You just sit there and smile, thank him for his time and say "when I get back to the office I'll see what I can work out". And the hard truth sets in that Showtime really under bidding us again! This hour long rant is now on hour two! All the while realizing, did I really spend more time this week driving a truck then actually doing any real production work? FML

What I've learned in the last few years is that doesn't matter what lights or PA, if any that I own. The only thing needed is patience, good negation skills, and a solid plan. I think Evans on his way there!
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"Negation" skills? Got to work on them myself, say no and say it often :^).

One thing we all get to deal with is the "Showtime" in every market eventually goes out of business or raises it's prices.
Unfortunately, there is always another "Showtime" springing up when one fails.

System bookers usually make the best money, and the owners are stuck with the best expenses.
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Cole Lofink said:
@ Tom,

Here is what you forgot in you day.
- The hour long phone RANT from me about, how Showtime is under bidding us! Another thing broke in the truck and is costing me more money. Why did everything we own sit last week and make no money, but this week we need twice as much equipment and now have to sub-rent. Is Showtime really under bidding us again! I've been doing invoices for what seems like hours, I can't wait to get to the shop to get everything ready for my gig. No wait I have a meeting followed by a meeting followed by hours of quotes. Still haven't made it to the shop to prep gear, now I've got to hire people to do that....there goes a some profit. I'm so glad all my UPS delivers are a day late, now someone needs to be at the shop tomorrow to get them....there goes a some profit. Racks need to be rebuilt and speakers painted since they spent the last week outside and are now going into a hotel ballroom. I'd love to do that but, I'm still in this "hour long meeting", that dragged on for four hours and we both know the head person isn't actually here, which means i'm going to be in another meeting next week justifying my "ridiculously high price" to that person. Is Showtime really under bidding us again! Crap, speakers still need to be painted, and fixtures addressed. Got to have two people at the shop doing that....there goes a some profit. This guy really won't take an M7? Now one of us has to drive two hours and pick up an SC48 and the M7 can sit in the shop ALL week....there goes a some profit. Why do my clients that make me the least amount of money, call me the most and waste the most of my time. Meeting just ended, client says " Your competition is going to include ALL labor and trucking for FREE, hope you can as well". I just spent 4 hours with this guy and he says that! Now your heads going to explode, and I want scream "FREE! REALLY! WTF!" but you don't. You just sit there and smile, thank him for his time and say "when I get back to the office I'll see what I can work out". And the hard truth sets in that Showtime really is under bidding us again! This hour long rant is now on hour two! All the while realizing, did I really spend more time this week driving a truck then actually doing any real production work? FML

What I've learned in the last few years is that doesn't matter what lights or PA, if any that I own. The only thing needed is patience, good negation skills, and a solid plan. I think Evans on his way there!
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Ya know,

Since this competitor is keen on doing things that most would not, see if they will accept a contract with no deposit. Then, simply "book" them for a show in a very far away place with a "rider" and a "contact" to call. Be sure to tell them its a union show, they will need rigging and chain motors, 10 extra techs, lots of breakouts, subrentals on screens and projectors etc. Provide them with signed contracts and directions and diagrams and everything else. But, make sure that they are booked on the day of the show that you are bidding on... and see what happens when they arrive.

could be fun. especially when they try to sue the non-existent production company. 8)~8-)~:cool:
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

@ Cole... I've BE'd a couple events Showtime provided production on... I've been less than thrilled to run the system. At a huge Outdoor festival (multiple stages and such)... My FOH PA consisted of:
5 EAW KF760(x2)/KF761(x3) per side
6 EAW SB1000 per side
1 rack of 4 Lab Gruppen PLM10k

YES, only 4 amps on the Main PA system; there was no extra channels to do any gain shading on the line array.

At least the monitor rig was set-up correctly; it was rented from Clair (4x PLM10k with 8x Clair12AM)
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Andre Vare said:
Was this provided per the money the promoter paid?

Andre
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I don't know the financials of the show; this was the #2 stage of 8 at a music festival. I don’t think it should matter as Speakers and Amps are supplied as a "package". If the budget was tight and they could only afford 1 amp rack, then it should have been a ground stack rig (aka KF850).
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Matt Vivlamore said:
I don't know the financials of the show; this was the #2 stage of 8 at a music festival. I don’t think it should matter as Speakers and Amps are supplied as a "package". If the budget was tight and they could only afford 1 amp rack, then it should have been a ground stack rig (aka KF850).
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If you do not know what was asked for, offered, and suggested, it is not appropriate to blame to supplier.

Andre
 
Andre Vare said:
If you do not know what was asked for, offered, and suggested, it is not appropriate to blame to supplier.

Andre
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One of the best statements ever! I would hate to get blamed for what happens all the time. I suggest they need xyz and they say only xy is in the budget. It is what it is. I stopped bringing stuff that people won't pay for.
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Andre Vare said:
If you do not know what was asked for, offered, and suggested, it is not appropriate to blame to supplier.

Andre
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I call bullshit on this. Nickel and dime with your promoter over how many channels of wireless, console choices, etc. If you can afford to bring out a large format PA, it should come out as a complete and properly set up package and thats it. If your client can't afford it, reccomend something else, don't just half ass it. If they still can't afford it, go elsewhere. And if your standard package IS to power a half dozen cabs off on NL8, just give it up already.
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Tom Manchester said:
And if your standard package IS to power a half dozen cabs off on NL8, just give it up already.
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While I agree with the sentiments about not half-assing it, I take issue with the assumption that the KF730/SB1000 rig was halfassed.

Running 5 LA tops and 6 subs off of 8 decent-sized amp channels doesn't sound too far off from what's required, as my guess is that each SB1000 got an amp channel, with the remaining 2 channels per side going to biamp the array. In other words, using the KF730s exactly as designed. The only thing powered at less than the RMS rating was the lows on the array. Whether or not that was enough rig for the gig is a different discussion (and that rig was probably cheaper to deploy than an 850 rig).
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Rob Timmerman said:
While I agree with the sentiments about not half-assing it, I take issue with the assumption that the KF730/SB1000 rig was halfassed.

Running 5 LA tops and 6 subs off of 8 decent-sized amp channels doesn't sound too far off from what's required, as my guess is that each SB1000 got an amp channel, with the remaining 2 channels per side going to biamp the array. In other words, using the KF730s exactly as designed. The only thing powered at less than the RMS rating was the lows on the array. Whether or not that was enough rig for the gig is a different discussion (and that rig was probably cheaper to deploy than an 850 rig).
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Just a correction, the kf rig in question was a 760 rig, not 730... I have never heard a 760 rig so I can't comment what a fp10k, can do, but I know it rocks my 730 rig... 2 amps , 12 boxes. ( powered in groups of 3 ). The other 2 labs will be taking on sb1000s this year. I'll let you know how it pans out. I'm not doing megadeath so it'll probably be quite fine.
 
I don't know the specifics or what was expected, not will I defend halfway doing a job or improperly powering a rig. I do appreciate the point that we don't know what happened in a particular scenario.
Unfortunately not all of us are independently wealthy and can turn down a gig because the promoter doesn't want to pay for the 'big rig' for the traveling BE. I will do everything I can to get the best rig up, but I also got to work, even if the BE wants 16 cardioid subs and a PM5D for his 12 input folk group. (Literally had this rider once)
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Rob Timmerman said:
While I agree with the sentiments about not half-assing it, I take issue with the assumption that the KF730/SB1000 rig was halfassed.

Running 5 LA tops and 6 subs off of 8 decent-sized amp channels doesn't sound too far off from what's required, as my guess is that each SB1000 got an amp channel, with the remaining 2 channels per side going to biamp the array. In other words, using the KF730s exactly as designed. The only thing powered at less than the RMS rating was the lows on the array. Whether or not that was enough rig for the gig is a different discussion (and that rig was probably cheaper to deploy than an 850 rig).
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Rob, it was only 1 rack with 4 amps (16 channels of power) for the entire rig. I am not sure if it was exactly like this but I remember them telling me that the top amp went to SL top boxes, the 2nd amp went to SL tops, the 3rd amp went to SL stack of 6 SB1000 and the 4th amp to the SR stack of SB1000s. A single amp powering the flown array, doesn't work so well when its format is a J.

I am not very familiar with the KF760s, but there were at least 2 am channels had a .8 ohm load on the amp. I do know the subs and if they split the drives into 2 channels the load would have been 1.3ohm load on the amp. The PLM10000Q produces 2350w at 2 ohms across the 4 channels (2400w at 4 ohms).
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Matt Vivlamore said:
Rob, it was only 1 rack with 4 amps (16 channels of power) for the entire rig. I am not sure if it was exactly like this but I remember them telling me that the top amp went to SL top boxes, the 2nd amp went to SL tops, the 3rd amp went to SL stack of 6 SB1000 and the 4th amp to the SR stack of SB1000s. A single amp powering the flown array, doesn't work so well when its format is a J.

I am not very familiar with the KF760s, but there were at least 2 am channels had a .8 ohm load on the amp. I do know the subs and if they split the drives into 2 channels the load would have been 1.3ohm load on the amp. The PLM10000Q produces 2350w at 2 ohms across the 4 channels (2400w at 4 ohms).
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Matt, I'm not sure at what point you became an expert on KF730s. You do realize that they are a 16-ohm-per-passband box, biamped, so you can quite readily run 8 boxes on 2 channels of amplifier? With 4 channels you can run 16 boxes. The rig in question may have been *slightly* underpowered, but if that's all the power the rig needs to achieve the output they require, then it's not actually underpowered at all.

Also, gain-shading is a last resort for line arrays. A properly designed J array usually needs nothing, except maybe some properly integrated downfills/front fills.
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Silas Pradetto said:
Matt, I'm not sure at what point you became an expert on KF730s. You do realize that they are a 16-ohm-per-passband box, biamped, so you can quite readily run 8 boxes on 2 channels of amplifier? With 4 channels you can run 16 boxes. The rig in question may have been *slightly* underpowered, but if that's all the power the rig needs to achieve the output they require, then it's not actually underpowered at all.

Also, gain-shading is a last resort for line arrays. A properly designed J array usually needs nothing, except maybe some properly integrated downfills/front fills.
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Again guys... the array in question (matt's post) is FIVE , SEVEN SIXTYS,and THREE, SEVEN SIXTY ONEs not 730's.... after confirming online a 760 box requires 4 channels of amplification.
high/mid/low1/low2.

I did not confirm the ohm load for each band pass, but I would assume one amp for 8 , 760 type cabs - would be on the light side.
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Shane Presley said:
Again guys... the array in question (matt's post) is FIVE , SEVEN SIXTYS,and THREE, SEVEN SIXTY ONEs not 730's.... after confirming online a 760 box requires 4 channels of amplification.
high/mid/low1/low2.

I did not confirm the ohm load for each band pass, but I would assume one amp for 8 , 760 type cabs - would be on the light side.
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:lol: I can read, I swear.

Sorry Matt - I'm clearly not an expert at reading the thread!

Definitely seems that you'd need ~8 amp channels for 8 KF760-class boxes.

How did it sound? How was the coverage? Did anything blow up? If it sounded good, covered appropriately, and didn't blow up, I think the whole conversation is moot...
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Silas Pradetto said:
:lol: I can read, I swear.

Sorry Matt - I'm clearly not an expert at reading the thread!

Definitely seems that you'd need ~8 amp channels for 8 KF760-class boxes.

How did it sound? How was the coverage? Did anything blow up? If it sounded good, covered appropriately, and didn't blow up, I think the whole conversation is moot...
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Sound wise… well here is what you get when everything is being driven off on 1 amp. With the mix position sitting around 75’-100’ away and I started the set running the PA at 100-105 db with a Hard Rock band, the “system tech” came up to me and began to yell at me that the PA was too loud and I was taking people’s heads off with volume. So I got out from behind the board and walked up into the crowd, sure enough it was loud and my eye balls wanted to pop out of my head and I backed the mix down to 65-70 db at FOH to in order to get a desirable volume for the crowd 30’ away from the stage.

I don’t know what presets the put in, but I presume that the KF760 and KF761 are different. I would almost say they were running the KF760 presets for the array, the PA sounded ‘right’ at FOH.
 
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