Marc Lopez of Yamaha Commercial Audio Q&A

Re: Marc Lopez of Yamaha Commercial Audio Q&A

Justice C. Bigler said:
Hey Marc, can you tell us something about the PM10 that isn't listed in all of the current marketing and spec sheets? :D :D
Click to expand...
Hi Justice,

I don't want to spoil all the anticipation... :D~:-D~:grin:

There is a lot more to tell, but we'll have to wait a while longer for those details. What I can say is that the control surface is very luxurious in person – roomy and ergonomic, everything is accessible in a comfortable arm's length. The new faders feel great and all the switches and encoders are what you would expect from a system of this caliber. It's much more grand in person than the photos give it credit for.

I've been asked some questions several times which I think are worth explaining:

- Can the system process more than 144 channels?
Yes, in a future update, Engine Cascade mode (using 2 engines) will allow 288 inputs to be mixed to the 72 Mix+36 Matrix+Stereo A/Stereo B outputs.

- Why does the system use TwinLANe for its primary I/O Transport versus Dante like the other Yamaha consoles?
The basic system specification is 144 inputs, 72 Mix + 36 Matrix + Stereo A + Stereo B = 256 potential channels on the console network before any direct outputs or external insert I/O. The current Gigabit Dante specification allows for 256 channels at 96kHz. We needed a transport that would have more channel count "headroom" to account for direct outputs and external inserts, or if there was more than one system on the network with additional unique I/O requirements. TwinLANe can handle 400 channels at 96kHz/32-bit with only 12 samples of latency (0.125ms). TwinLANe is not intended to be an industry-wide "standard", but rather think of it as the console "backbone infrastructure", or even a vast improvement to the PM1D 68-pin cabling. Yamaha understands the importance of Dante and we included Dante connectivity as a key part of the system, but we had to meet the basic technical specification of the mixing system itself. And because of the card slot modularity, future cards can be developed and utilized as system needs are required.
 
Re: Marc Lopez of Yamaha Commercial Audio Q&A

Marc Lopez said:
- Why does the system use TwinLANe for its primary I/O Transport versus Dante like the other Yamaha consoles?
The basic system specification is 144 inputs, 72 Mix + 36 Matrix + Stereo A + Stereo B = 256 potential channels on the console network before any direct outputs or external insert I/O. The current Gigabit Dante specification allows for 256 channels at 96kHz. We needed a transport that would have more channel count "headroom" to account for direct outputs and external inserts, or if there was more than one system on the network with additional unique I/O requirements. TwinLANe can handle 400 channels at 96kHz/32-bit with only 12 samples of latency (0.125ms). TwinLANe is not intended to be an industry-wide "standard", but rather think of it as the console "backbone infrastructure", or even a vast improvement to the PM1D 68-pin cabling. Yamaha understands the importance of Dante and we included Dante connectivity as a key part of the system, but we had to meet the basic technical specification of the mixing system itself. And because of the card slot modularity, future cards can be developed and utilized as system needs are required.
Click to expand...

So, I find this pretty interesting. What is the physical interface mechanism for the "TwinLANe" setup?

The channel capacity of Dante (or CobraNet for that matter) scales with the available bandwidth of the network links. So I would expect (though I have not personally tested it) that if you were to set up a pair of ports each on a pair of Gigabit network switches using LACP (Link Aggregation Control Protocol) you can increase the available bandwidth on that link from the 1Gb you get with a single port to 2Gb since you are using two ports. I would expect that doing something like this should theoretically provide the ability to pass up to 512 channels of 96kHz over the dual link Ethernet interface using standard hardware all the way around.

Now, this all sounds like a real pain to set up if the end user had to be the one configuring Ethernet switches and the like, but if this capacity is built into the actual hardware to begin with I can see a lot of low cost, high speed data happening.

For that matter, you could just use 10Gb Ethernet links and theoretically be able to move 2,560 of those beautiful, high resolution audio channels with one interface with either copper Category 6A (Class Ea, STP or UTP out to 100 meters) or Category 7 (Class F, STP out to 100 meters) or one of the many fiber options.

It just seems to me that "TwinLANe" is an unnecessary complication when there are already better solutions available in standard Ethernet that will directly support Dante. This would allow Yamaha to keep building Dante directly into their consoles and it would not need to be an option. You know, standardize on one standard... this should also allow the end user to be able to just directly connect RIO boxes at 1GbE and processing engines at 10GbE to the same standard network switch.
 
Re: Marc Lopez of Yamaha Commercial Audio Q&A

Hey Mark,
Got some questions about Rivage....
Are the HY Cards Clock "A Synchronous" like the KT & Midas Stuff? It would be a real bummer if you had to run the console down to 48K to access a 48K Dante Network...... In my application I'd like to see the PM10 be able to run at 96K, while passing audio to and from a complex Dante Network with multiple QL, RIO, and DVS applications....

Can the consoles share I/O ? If you did a FOH/MON/BA Setup, could you put a Dante Card in one of the engines, and all three consoles see those inputs?
If you plug a talkback mic into the local I/O of the FOH console, can the monitor console see that as a patchable input on the network?
Could all three consoles have their own 96ch input rack, but share a 96 channel output rack, each patching to whatever ports they want on that rack?

Does it have a new de-essser ??

I see the connection between the Engine and the console is Cat5e. What happens (say in an Arena) the run from Patch to FOH is more than 100m (the general maximum of Cat5e)?

thanks!
 
Re: Marc Lopez of Yamaha Commercial Audio Q&A

Reid Wall said:
Hey Mark,
Got some questions about Rivage....

Snip...

I see the connection between the Engine and the console is Cat5e. What happens (say in an Arena) the run from Patch to FOH is more than 100m (the general maximum of Cat5e)?

thanks!
Click to expand...

The easy answer is keep the DSP with the control surface. Then the link to backstage can be 300m of MM fiber.

Mac
 
Re: Marc Lopez of Yamaha Commercial Audio Q&A

I assumed that would be the case..... But because the redundancy is a "ring" style, that makes the cabling topography a little interesting....
 
Re: Marc Lopez of Yamaha Commercial Audio Q&A

Josh Millward said:
So, I find this pretty interesting. What is the physical interface mechanism for the "TwinLANe" setup?

The channel capacity of Dante (or CobraNet for that matter) scales with the available bandwidth of the network links. So I would expect (though I have not personally tested it) that if you were to set up a pair of ports each on a pair of Gigabit network switches using LACP (Link Aggregation Control Protocol) you can increase the available bandwidth on that link from the 1Gb you get with a single port to 2Gb since you are using two ports. I would expect that doing something like this should theoretically provide the ability to pass up to 512 channels of 96kHz over the dual link Ethernet interface using standard hardware all the way around.

Now, this all sounds like a real pain to set up if the end user had to be the one configuring Ethernet switches and the like, but if this capacity is built into the actual hardware to begin with I can see a lot of low cost, high speed data happening.

For that matter, you could just use 10Gb Ethernet links and theoretically be able to move 2,560 of those beautiful, high resolution audio channels with one interface with either copper Category 6A (Class Ea, STP or UTP out to 100 meters) or Category 7 (Class F, STP out to 100 meters) or one of the many fiber options.

It just seems to me that "TwinLANe" is an unnecessary complication when there are already better solutions available in standard Ethernet that will directly support Dante. This would allow Yamaha to keep building Dante directly into their consoles and it would not need to be an option. You know, standardize on one standard... this should also allow the end user to be able to just directly connect RIO boxes at 1GbE and processing engines at 10GbE to the same standard network switch.
Click to expand...
Hi Josh,

The physical interface for TwinLANe is multimode fiber. We use OpticalCon Duo connectors which are also compatible with standard LC connectors. The nodes are connected as ring through a "closed-loop daisy chain", which provides redundancy.

Using Dante for the main network would require a rather sophisticated and potentially expensive setup with LAGs, double cabling, or 10G switches. Even though the new HY144-D Dante High Capacity card has more channels on a single node than any other Dante device, using it for the Rivage base network would still require the use of multiple Dante cards in the engine, or a carefully minded network in order to keep channel counts within the amount of available bandwidth.

Our goal with Rivage PM10 was to have a mixing system that does not rely on third party components (i.e. network switches which ) and to make sure the mix engineer or systems engineer does not need to be a IT specialist to set it up and maintain it. It's been our experience that larger Dante networks require some planning and expertise to execute properly.

TwinLANe is an infrastructural backbone transport for Rivage PM10 Components, not intended as industry standard, and definitely not a replacement for Dante. It exists as part of the console infrastructure, and we are keeping Dante compatibility through the Dante-MY16 card as well as the new HY144-D High Capacity card.

It is possible to utilize the engine with an HY144-D Dante card connected to Rio units (no TwinLANe), although there will be no HA control, and R-Remote software would need to be utilized for HA control and Dante Controller for patching. If there are enough requests for this type of setup we would consider developing these features, but for the initial product release, we are focusing on having seamless connectivity for all Rivage PM10 system components. A large part of the enhancements in Rivage PM10 from previous generations is the emphasis on sound quality and "color" options, so the new mic preamps with the Virtual Circuitry Modeling (VCM) Rupert Neve SILK and TEXTURE are a significant contribution to the overall system quality.
 
Re: Marc Lopez of Yamaha Commercial Audio Q&A

Marc Lopez said:
Hi Josh,

The physical interface for TwinLANe is multimode fiber. We use OpticalCon Duo connectors which are also compatible with standard LC connectors. The nodes are connected as ring through a "closed-loop daisy chain", which provides redundancy.

Using Dante for the main network would require a rather sophisticated and potentially expensive setup with LAGs, double cabling, or 10G switches. Even though the new HY144-D Dante High Capacity card has more channels on a single node than any other Dante device, using it for the Rivage base network would still require the use of multiple Dante cards in the engine, or a carefully minded network in order to keep channel counts within the amount of available bandwidth.

Our goal with Rivage PM10 was to have a mixing system that does not rely on third party components (i.e. network switches which ) and to make sure the mix engineer or systems engineer does not need to be a IT specialist to set it up and maintain it. It's been our experience that larger Dante networks require some planning and expertise to execute properly.

TwinLANe is an infrastructural backbone transport for Rivage PM10 Components, not intended as industry standard, and definitely not a replacement for Dante. It exists as part of the console infrastructure, and we are keeping Dante compatibility through the Dante-MY16 card as well as the new HY144-D High Capacity card.

It is possible to utilize the engine with an HY144-D Dante card connected to Rio units (no TwinLANe), although there will be no HA control, and R-Remote software would need to be utilized for HA control and Dante Controller for patching. If there are enough requests for this type of setup we would consider developing these features, but for the initial product release, we are focusing on having seamless connectivity for all Rivage PM10 system components. A large part of the enhancements in Rivage PM10 from previous generations is the emphasis on sound quality and "color" options, so the new mic preamps with the Virtual Circuitry Modeling (VCM) Rupert Neve SILK and TEXTURE are a significant contribution to the overall system quality.
Click to expand...

Hi Marc!

Thanks for the reply!

Very nice concept using the OpticalCon Duo connectors! I'm sure they will be very robust and easy to work with. Fiber optic cable is a great medium and I'm certain it will be used more in the future.

Overall I really like the setup and I'll be interested to see where it goes!
 
Re: Marc Lopez of Yamaha Commercial Audio Q&A

Marc (or anyone else), do you foresee selling the PM10 system with a specified fiber optic cable length? I.e. this isn't something that you can order a roll of cable and do the terminations your self, right? Don't you still have to be certified to do fiberoptic terminations?
 
Re: Marc Lopez of Yamaha Commercial Audio Q&A

Justice C. Bigler said:
Marc (or anyone else), do you foresee selling the PM10 system with a specified fiber optic cable length? I.e. this isn't something that you can order a roll of cable and do the terminations your self, right? Don't you still have to be certified to do fiberoptic terminations?
Click to expand...

It is fairly easy and reasonably inexpensive to get qualified to do LC connectors which is what is inside an OpticalCon dual connector. The toolset might be $1k, but you can make a lot of terminations and do a lot of maintenance with it.

Expanded beam connectors are much different and usually require factory installation.

Mac
 
Re: Marc Lopez of Yamaha Commercial Audio Q&A

mackerr said:
It is fairly easy and reasonably inexpensive to get qualified to do LC connectors which is what is inside an OpticalCon dual connector. The toolset might be $1k, but you can make a lot of terminations and do a lot of maintenance with it.

Expanded beam connectors are much different and usually require factory installation.

Mac
Click to expand...


Some of the newer connectors require a bare minimum of tooling (typically a stripping tool and a cleaving tool, kits start around $400).
 
Re: Marc Lopez of Yamaha Commercial Audio Q&A

mackerr said:
It is fairly easy and reasonably inexpensive to get qualified to do LC connectors which is what is inside an OpticalCon dual connector. The toolset might be $1k, but you can make a lot of terminations and do a lot of maintenance with it.
Click to expand...
Where and how does one get qualified to do LC fiber terminations?

My Google-foo seems to be weak today as I can't find a definite answer as to where to go and what it costs.
 
Re: Marc Lopez of Yamaha Commercial Audio Q&A

To quote my favorite line from "Hunt for Red October', "sure you can, why would you want to?"

Install grade multimode LC fiber is cheap stuff - think zip cord with RCA connectors both in terms of cost and robustness. As long as you observe the cable specs for diameter you can get a very reliable connection and have lots of spares without a big investment. A build capability to support a single console or even a small inventory is probably not a good investment in the same way say a crimp tool for AMP pins might have been to support and inventory of CPCs and Quicklatch snakes. Tactical fiber with OpticalCons is a different thing all together and requires certification from Neutrick. but for permanent installs with protected interfaces LC cable ends will mate with OpticalCon panel mounts just fine. The OpticalCon panel mount itself is simply a bulkhead thru mount for an off the shelf LC patch cable anyway. This is based on my intensive 18 months of getting up to speed on implementing Dante for my newer Yamaha consoles so there are probably holes in my understanding but thus far it has all worked admirably including a couple of ad hoc 500 foot runs that included five LC to LC barrel joins in line. Laser light data is pretty sturdy stuff it seems.

Justice C. Bigler said:
Where and how does one get qualified to do LC fiber terminations?

My Google-foo seems to be weak today as I can't find a definite answer as to where to go and what it costs.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Marc Lopez of Yamaha Commercial Audio Q&A

Hello Marc!

I would love to see a feature that allows to you group scenes and update them all with relative values added to the CL/QL line. The new PM10 has the "overlay filter" feature which essentially does this.

Being able to update scenes relative to each other is only a feature on the Digico and Avid desks (that I know of), but it would nice to see Yamaha's reputation for reliability enhanced with an excellent snapshot/scene system.

Is this a possibility with the CL/QL or will Yamaha save it only for the top end of the market?
 
Re: Marc Lopez of Yamaha Commercial Audio Q&A

Sorry....one more question....

Happy New Year btw!

The website says the Rio boxes are 96k capable but the CL line is listed as 48k.

Are there plans for the CL desks to run at 96k in a future firmware update?

The biggest reason I'd like 96k is for reduced latency.

Thanks again for being here!!
 
Re: Marc Lopez of Yamaha Commercial Audio Q&A

Reid Wall said:
Hey Mark,
Got some questions about Rivage....
Are the HY Cards Clock "A Synchronous" like the KT & Midas Stuff? It would be a real bummer if you had to run the console down to 48K to access a 48K Dante Network...... In my application I'd like to see the PM10 be able to run at 96K, while passing audio to and from a complex Dante Network with multiple QL, RIO, and DVS applications....
Click to expand...
Hi Reid,

The HY128-D Dante interface cards is not asynchronous, so all devices on the Dante network must be clocked at the same sample rate if you want to be able to patch between them. Of course, Dante supports multiple sample rates on the same network, but only devices with the same sample rates and clocked together can patch to each other. I completely understand your request. We may have a solution for that application in the near future.

Reid Wall said:
Can the consoles share I/O ? If you did a FOH/MON/BA Setup, could you put a Dante Card in one of the engines, and all three consoles see those inputs?
Click to expand...
In the initial release, only two mixing systems will be allowed on the TwinLANe network, but more will be allowed in a future update. So for the initial release of the product, modifying your scenario to just FOH and MON, yes it is possible. And in the future update, it will be possible with all three mix positions.

Reid Wall said:
If you plug a talkback mic into the local I/O of the FOH console, can the monitor console see that as a patchable input on the network?
Click to expand...
Yes, the local I/O of the console can be shared on the network to other devices.

Reid Wall said:
Could all three consoles have their own 96ch input rack, but share a 96 channel output rack, each patching to whatever ports they want on that rack?
Click to expand...
Like the above scenario, yes for two consoles initially, and in the future, yes for all three.

Reid Wall said:
Does it have a new de-essser ??
Click to expand...
No, that remains unchanged.

Reid Wall said:
I see the connection between the Engine and the console is Cat5e. What happens (say in an Arena) the run from Patch to FOH is more than 100m (the general maximum of Cat5e)?
Click to expand...
I would recommend the engine stay local to the console and use the fiber runs for the long distance (as Mac already recommended)
 
Re: Marc Lopez of Yamaha Commercial Audio Q&A

thanks Marc- those are really helpful answers. Can you just clarify something on the clocking....
Can I run the console and its I/O @ 96K, while running the Dante Card @ 48K? I understand that the Dante Card has to "pick one", but can does it have to be the same as the rest of the console?

Also... I'm sure they're already working on it... But I sure hope Waves brings out a large format HY Card....

thanks.... I'm really looking forward to checking out the PM10... We've got 4x PM1Ds- We love them but they are definitely getting old!
 
Re: Marc Lopez of Yamaha Commercial Audio Q&A

Reid Wall said:
thanks Marc- those are really helpful answers. Can you just clarify something on the clocking....
Can I run the console and its I/O @ 96K, while running the Dante Card @ 48K? I understand that the Dante Card has to "pick one", but can does it have to be the same as the rest of the console?

Also... I'm sure they're already working on it... But I sure hope Waves brings out a large format HY Card....

thanks.... I'm really looking forward to checking out the PM10... We've got 4x PM1Ds- We love them but they are definitely getting old!
Click to expand...
Hi Reid,

It may be possible to run the console at 96kHz and have the slot run at half speed like our other 96kHz consoles can (PM5D, DM2000, DM1000, etc.). One potential issue with that is that there is no anti-aliasing filter when using it in that mode, so technically there is a possibility for audible artifacts when using that mode.
 
Top Bottom