Midas Pro 1

Re: Midas Pro 1

Jason Kelly said:
Our mic amps have always been specifically designed to respond very musically
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So what if you are mixing a show that is dialog or speech based? Or has a lot of sound effects in it? Can you swap out those "musical" mic pres for ones that sound better when doing other kinds of shows?

PS, when is Midas/Behringer going to start offering training session in the middle part of the U.S.?
 
Re: Midas Pro 1

My first response go eaten by the BB software since i took too long to post it...(being careful about my choice of words), So lets try again.
Jason Kelly said:
Hi Jeff,

You are partly right. But I think we look at mic amps in a slightly different way to most other manufacturers and this has affected how we approach digital console gain and the way it is used.
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Good information to know.
Our mic amps have always been specifically designed to respond very musically and be very controlled when overdriven. In fact many engineers have grown use the ability to overdrive our mic amps as part of the sound that they create. It is another tool in their tool box. We made a concerted effort to make sure that the mic amps of our digital consoles could be used in the same creative way. If an engineer wants to use the available headroom to create a more 'open' and 'airy' sound, or if they wish to overdrive the mic amp and use the coloration that is developed they should be able to do so. Whether its a mic amp connected to an analogue or digital console. Of course when using a digital console we have to make sure that its not possible to create digital distortion, as this would not be musical or pleasing.
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Interesting... So if I understand, you have customers who intentionally overdrive mic preamps to make their signature sound?

This was pretty common practice in the very old days when tracking drums on magnetic tape to provide some free compression. This tape compression was used because real limiters were pretty rare (expensive) and it didn't totally suck on some instruments (like drums). This was a lesser evil than the constant tape noise beneath percussively played instruments.

I guess a transformer based mic preamp could share some of that magnetic domain saturation characteristic, or a dedicated limiter circuit could be added to do whatever the designer wants it to. Of course the dynamic range available with modern paths makes this less attractive of a trade-off (increased distortion for improved S/N).
Once the coloration is created (or not) in the analogue domain you can not use digital gain/trim to compensate for this, so gain tracking would be little help in this situation. So it became obvious to us that we needed to offer FOH and Monitor (and recording/broadcast) engineers a way to run their mic inputs the way they chose to and offer as much flexibility as possible. This was where the idea for the DL431 mic splitter system came from. Offering three independent mic amps per input gives engineers the flexibility to run their gain structure however they wish. If you want the more 'airy' sound thats fine, if you want the more coloured, over driven sound that is also fine.
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Surely the customer is always right, and the only way to allow one customer to cream the front end without trashing everybody's signal is redundant circuitry. A premium solution, but if the customer(s) are willing to pay for it, nice if you can get it.
When you are using the DL series i/o boxes that have a single mic amp obviously some compromise is inevitable. The engineers need to have a basic agreement and understanding of what they want the mic gain to be. Both from a basic gain structure and from a creative point of view. Once this is agreed upon and the mic gain level set, they can both switch to their respective digital trims. This offers them a -40dB to +20dB swing, with a very fine resolution of 0.01dB. This offers much more control than the stepped 2.5dB or 5dB of the analogue mic amp and keeps basic gain structure through the A/D converters the same. Meaning that gain tracking is not required when using just the digital trim. If a channel is overloading too much (for example a DI Box pad has become selected/deselected), then this gain change in the analogue domain would effect both consoles anyway. So which ever console has control of the analogue mic amp within the i/o box can fix it for both consoles.

I'm not saying that our solution is perfect, or that it solves every possible scenario of a multi console set up. But we hope that it offers enough flexibility to solve most peoples problems and still offer some creative control over how they use their mic amps and the available gain structure.

I hope this helps in the discussion,

All the best,

Jason
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I won't argue about the subjective appeal of overloaded mic preamps, if it was up to me I'd be tempted to give those guys a shock, until they stop clipping the path, but they paid their geld so they get to drive the bus any way they want.

JR

[edit] It will allow your customers to "dirty" up a too pristine digital path.... another subjective rabbit hole I don't want to fall into. [/edit]
 
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Re: Midas Pro 1

I was looking at the Pro2 at my local dealer, and this has nothing to do with sound, but the whole thing just struck me as not very visually attractive (is that a more sensitive way of saying ugly) with the bulbous sides and the colors all over the place.

In the way back I worked on a guys boat that was pink, not pink cadillac pink, or subtle pink, but Oh my god! That's Pink! pink. His basic outlook was not only can I afford this boat but I can afford not to take it seriously.

I guess this is a continuation of the purple and anyone who knows anything about boards is going to be able to identify the Midas at FOH from a good ways away.
 
It was sitting on a counter next to a gld. The gld looked sleek, modern, organized, and uncluttered.

The midas looked like a bag of something semisolid that had been plopped down and was going to ooze out the sides.
 
Re: Midas Pro 1

John Roberts said:
My first response go eaten by the BB software since i took too long to post it...(being careful about my choice of words), So lets try again.

Good information to know.

Interesting... So if I understand, you have customers who intentionally overdrive mic preamps to make their signature sound?

This was pretty common practice in the very old days when tracking drums on magnetic tape to provide some free compression. This tape compression was used because real limiters were pretty rare (expensive) and it didn't totally suck on some instruments (like drums). This was a lesser evil than the constant tape noise beneath percussively played instruments.

I guess a transformer based mic preamp could share some of that magnetic domain saturation characteristic, or a dedicated limiter circuit could be added to do whatever the designer wants it to. Of course the dynamic range available with modern paths makes this less attractive of a trade-off (increased distortion for improved S/N).

Surely the customer is always right, and the only way to allow one customer to cream the front end without trashing everybody's signal is redundant circuitry. A premium solution, but if the customer(s) are willing to pay for it, nice if you can get it.


I won't argue about the subjective appeal of overloaded mic preamps, if it was up to me I'd be tempted to give those guys a shock, until they stop clipping the path, but they paid their geld so they get to drive the bus any way they want.

JR

[edit] It will allow your customers to "dirty" up a too pristine digital path.... another subjective rabbit hole I don't want to fall into. [/edit]
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Hi JR,

Making the mic-pre and signal chain "soft-clip" is what most people believe is "headroom" in the mic-pre; and its one of the reasons why everyone loved old Midas consoles, they were very forgiving to mix on.

One of my friends described the difference between mixing on a Profile and a H3000 like trying to drive a car between two posts. With the Profile the posts are about 10ft wide, on the Midas about 25ft wide.

To me the whole mic-pre debate is about 98% B.S. .... If the input is not being overdriven, and the signal chain is not clipped; I cannot hear the difference between most mic pres in 2012, they are all good.

When I listen to a PA system, I am hearing the whole signal chain (+ the speakers). In the analogue world, “the sound” is a function of the mic-pres, PEQ, summing busses and the output drive circuits etc. (+ the spekars)

From my experience most of the clipping / overloads occurs at the summing amps. I have also seen some of the early Soundcrafts' op-amps current limiting in the channel strip because the impedance of the aux send bus was too low. In the digital world all the A/Ds and D/As and the algorithms that determine the PEQ …etc all contribute to "the sound".

Suggesting, as many people seem to, that it is all to do with the mic-pres is silly, there are sooo many other bits of electronic stuff in the signal chain between the mic pre and the output that can have an impact.

I just love those trade shows where some guy comes along and asks the sales rep about the mic-pres on some new digital board, to which the rep responds they are wonderful, better than the best thing - blah- blah - blah and they nod at each other ... and neither one of them would have a clue about the design or attributes of a good mic-pre.

Soooo to my point – I think Midas are correct with this approach, it will help them sell desks. ;o)
Peter

 
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Re: Midas Pro 1

Jay Barracato said:
I was looking at the Pro2 ....with the bulbous sides
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Was it in a flight case?

Last time I saw one cased it dawned on me that the shape of the mixer makes the case unnecessarily large. Sloppy techs will probably find the keys, cigarettes, CD-covers and used dinner plates they forgot underneath those sides next time they uncase the mixer :D~:-D~:grin:
 
Re: Midas Pro 1

Peter Morris said:
Hi JR,

Making the mic-pre and signal chain "soft-clip" is what most people believe is "headroom" in the mic-pre; and its one of the reasons why everyone loved old Midas consoles, they were very forgiving to mix on.

One of my friends described the difference between mixing on a Profile and a H3000 like trying to drive a car between two posts. With the Profile the posts are about 10ft wide, on the Midas about 25ft wide.

To me the whole mic-pre debate is about 98% B.S. .... If the input is not being overdriven, and the signal chain is not clipped; I cannot hear the difference between most mic pres in 2012, they are all good.

When I listen to a PA system, I am hearing the whole signal chain (+ the speakers). In the analogue world, “the sound” is a function of the mic-pres, PEQ, summing busses and the output drive circuits etc. (+ the spekars)

From my experience most of the clipping / overloads occurs at the summing amps. I have also seen some of the early Soundcrafts' op-amps current limiting in the channel strip because the impedance of the aux send bus was too low. In the digital world all the A/Ds and D/As and the algorithms that determine the PEQ …etc all contribute to "the sound".

Suggesting, as many people seem to, that it is all to do with the mic-pres is silly, there are sooo many other bits of electronic stuff in the signal chain between the mic pre and the output that can have an impact.

I just love those trade shows where some guy comes along and asks the sales rep about the mic-pres on some new digital board, to which the rep responds they are wonderful, better than the best thing - blah- blah - blah and they nod at each other ... and neither one of them would have a clue about the design or attributes of a good mic-pre.

Soooo to my point – I think Midas are correct with this approach, it will help them sell desks. ;o)
Peter
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I won't argue about what one person hears, lets alone "most" people, but if they can convince a few people that soft-clipping is higher headroom, more power to them. This is less onerous (IMO) than the makers who inadvertently don't provide clip detecting for internal gain stages and buses while touting high headroom.

I agree with you on several points, and not only do un-clipped mic preamps sound similar, but that should be true for the rest of the path too (IMO)... Of course we can both come up with a list of stupid console design errors made by industry players over the decades, but by this time in Madas' history they won't be making newbie mistakes, not to mention digital is not subject to the same "analog" design issues.

Salesmen will probably keep touting mic preamps, because consumers will keep asking about them, but this is like a positive feedback system where the manufacturers like having a hook to promote... Hard to sell a console by claiming that it has no sound, or sounds exactly like whatever mic you plug into it, but that is the true design goal, again IMO, and YMMV.

JR

PS I remain suspicious of soft-clipping being a desirable sound element, but listening to what occurs in many modern recordings with apparent clipping all over the place, who knows, not me? The customer is always right, even when horribly wrong.. :-)
 
Re: Midas Pro 1

I've been trying to find pricing for the Pro2c surface alone to contemplate what you describe (combo with Pro1) but I'm not finding it. Is it available stand alone without an stagebox?
 
Re: Midas Pro 1

John Roberts said:
JR

PS I remain suspicious of soft-clipping being a desirable sound element, but listening to what occurs in many modern recordings with apparent clipping all over the place, who knows, not me? The customer is always right, even when horribly wrong.. :-)
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Hi JR,

FWIW like you I don’t see soft-clipping as a necessarily "desirable sound" element ... I see it as a method of addressing other issues – creating a desk that is forgiving of some mixing styles often found in the real world …. and that’s whole new discussion…. :roll:

Peter
 
Re: Midas Pro 1

I'm not sure I should pick the scab off this, but if i understand you correctly, this is to accommodate mix engineers mixing on the mic trims after they run out of fader? Are you sure these aren't DJs? No offense to any DJs reading this. :-)

Back in the bad old analog days, a soft limiter on the mic preamp would indeed be a lesser evil to hard clipping the preamp or fader gain stage, but in the digital domain, one could actually increase the effective channel mix contribution relative to the others, by dropping all the others (and trimming back up post master fader). This is apparently too much work for these human operators, but easy-peasy for a computer. I actually did something like that in an old automatic mixer I did using VCAs, but for a different reason. I didn't want the users to screw up the GBF relationship by turning up an input gain, so when the operator turned up one channel, they were actually dropping all the others. Getting back on consoles, the need to ever mix on mic trims could be replaced by increasing the fader range. The fader could be made progressively faster at the top of the range, so it wouldn't even be noticed by conservative mixers but you could (almost) always push any channel up on top of the mix if needed.

or not....

IMO a mic pre soft limiter is something that would be most useful for entry level customers, like clip limiters on power amps, to protect them from their inexperience. Of course the customer is always right and product should be designed to satisfy the wants of the customer, while there may be alternate ways to satisfy the need without adding distortion that they haven't imagined yet. Customers didn't demand microwave ovens, but they embraced them when they were available. It seems with adequate computing power, mic trims are archaic and could be left to cybernetic control. Increased channel fader range should accommodate the least disciplined mix engineer. A digital console could be made that never clips, ever.

I don't make and sell digital consoles so my opinions are untested in the marketplace. I'd tell them to use a distortion plug in if they really like that sound, but I have no customers to say that too... (which makes it easier for me to say).

JR

PS I have mused before about digital console controls mixing to targets rather than absolute gain or boost/cut. EQ could target a spectral result, faders could establish a relative mix. This different mixing paradigm is more likely to be tolerated by low end users first, but too expensive show up there any time soon, but eventually, maybe.
 
Re: Midas Pro 1

John Roberts said:
I'm not sure I should pick the scab off this, but if i understand you correctly, this is to accommodate mix engineers mixing on the mic trims after they run out of fader? Are you sure these aren't DJs? No offense to any DJs reading this. :-)

Back in the bad old analog days, a soft limiter on the mic preamp would indeed be a lesser evil to hard clipping the preamp or fader gain stage, but in the digital domain, one could actually increase the effective channel mix contribution relative to the others, by dropping all the others (and trimming back up post master fader). This is apparently too much work for these human operators, but easy-peasy for a computer. I actually did something like that in an old automatic mixer I did using VCAs, but for a different reason. I didn't want the users to screw up the GBF relationship by turning up an input gain, so when the operator turned up one channel, they were actually dropping all the others. Getting back on consoles, the need to ever mix on mic trims could be replaced by increasing the fader range. The fader could be made progressively faster at the top of the range, so it wouldn't even be noticed by conservative mixers but you could (almost) always push any channel up on top of the mix if needed.

or not....

IMO a mic pre soft limiter is something that would be most useful for entry level customers, like clip limiters on power amps, to protect them from their inexperience. Of course the customer is always right and product should be designed to satisfy the wants of the customer, while there may be alternate ways to satisfy the need without adding distortion that they haven't imagined yet. Customers didn't demand microwave ovens, but they embraced them when they were available. It seems with adequate computing power, mic trims are archaic and could be left to cybernetic control. Increased channel fader range should accommodate the least disciplined mix engineer. A digital console could be made that never clips, ever.

I don't make and sell digital consoles so my opinions are untested in the marketplace. I'd tell them to use a distortion plug in if they really like that sound, but I have no customers to say that too... (which makes it easier for me to say).

JR

PS I have mused before about digital console controls mixing to targets rather than absolute gain or boost/cut. EQ could target a spectral result, faders could establish a relative mix. This different mixing paradigm is more likely to be tolerated by low end users first, but too expensive show up there any time soon, but eventually, maybe.
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I guess what I’m suggesting is that there are quite a few people that do not understand gain structure … that simple.

What I have seen happen is engineers “slam”, the mic-pre’s hard - as one heavy metal engineer described it to me. He then went on to say you can’t do that on an Allen Heath because the mic-pres don’t have headroom like the Midas. (Translated – they clip square not soft).

What’s happening is the mic-pre is taking off all the transient peaks without being too noticeable. The signal then goes into the channel VCA (dbx2150) which when driven hard can produce some “nice” distortion. The VCA masters are run at about -10 to -15 dB … so all’s well at the summing amp.

If you did this with a non VCA, non soft-clip desk such as an Allen & Heath GL4000, you would hear the mic-pre clip, and running the subgroups down -10 to -15dB would not prevent the summing amps (sub-group) from clipping.... and it sounds awful.

Run the GL4000 with the correct gain structure you will probably find its distortion levels are less than the Midas.

Peter
 
Re: Midas Pro 1

John Roberts said:
It seems with adequate computing power, mic trims are archaic and could be left to cybernetic control. Increased channel fader range should accommodate the least disciplined mix engineer. A digital console could be made that never clips, ever.
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Shure has actually done something like that recently, in the ULX-D wireless series. There is no gain setting on the transmitter, just one big knob on the receiver. I've forgotten the explanation, but it's something to do with letting the transmitter set the gain automatically and then continuously telling the receiver how to match it that setting.
 
Re: Midas Pro 1

I see this as an inevitable evolution, just like we no longer have to set the choke to start our car, and nobody misses controls that can be managed automatically (at least they shouldn't). The piece of the puzzle that has been missing until recently is cost effective digital gain control for the analog gain stage. Now there are a couple vendors making good sound quality solutions (THAT and TI), and more will surely follow. This is still not cheap enough to be found on entry level PA heads, but premium products can support the BOM cost. With a digital data path, it is simple to embed gain or gain change information along with the signal so the receiver can know what the front end is doing.

The unfortunate paradox for this evolution is that the high end product with premium price points that can support such technology will often have fairly conservative customers who are not enthusiastic about change.. "back in my day we had to .... etc... ", but it will happen despite the Luddites. Resistance is futile.

JR
 
Re: Midas Pro 1

John Roberts said:
"back in my day we had to .... etc... ", but it will happen despite the Luddites. Resistance is futile.

JR
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You mean like having to match impedances between different devices?

That is one thng I am VERY HAPPY is long gone.

Anybody who still thinks that is a good idea-needs to just leave the business.

With voltage transfer (instead of power) it is soooooooo much easier to get a system to work properly.
 
Re: Midas Pro 1

Peter Morris said:
Hi JR,

FWIW like you I don’t see soft-clipping as a necessarily "desirable sound" element ... I see it as a method of addressing other issues – creating a desk that is forgiving of some mixing styles often found in the real world …. and that’s whole new discussion…. :roll:

Peter
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A usable way of generating 'pleasant' harmonics in a live setting can be challenging when recreating certain mixing styles so for me, the way the preamp on the Midas colors the audio when pushed is way more useful in the real life audio chain than that of a Yami M7. Many experienced mixers are accustomed to a signal chain that ebbs and flows through a pleasant and useful range of harmonic content and that begins with the preamp. I am assuming a desire to manipulate the input gain for the aforementioned result. In modern digital studio setups there are many options for harmonic enhancement. Live, it is a bit less convenient.
 
Re: Midas Pro 1

I will stop harping on the subjective aspect of this. Opinions vary and my opinion doesn't matter as much as paying customers. If the customers like it, it is good by definition.

One benefit of operating on sophisticated digital platforms is that studio efx plug-ins can follow the performers into the live SR area. This is still an ongoing evolution.

JR
 
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