New QSC Product - TouchMix

[Tom Duffy]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

Isn't it quite possible that the cost of implementing recallable preamps is very close to zero nowadays?

As always, there is a cheap way to do this and a good way to do this, but not a cheap and good way.
You can certainly design down to ~$2 per channel, but you're going to miss out on performance parameters such as:
Dynamic range when mic pre level is low (because everything is an attentuation)
inaudible gain steps on zero crossings.
Small analog gain steps. (to do cheap you have to have large analog steps with digital trim automatically applied in between - see what happens when you turn the gain up, you'll see a blip as the analog and digital gains have to change instantly together, but can't).

On the X-32, Behringer staff actually described it here:
Another Gain value on X32 and S16


THAT's solution brought the average cost per channel down from $10 to around $5 for the unquestionable "good" side, but to go lower you will see compromises.

Tom (TASCAM)

 

[Juergen Riemann]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

Not sure this is correct... digitally controlled preamps simply replace the vr with analog resistor switches and dont just attenuate... perhaps someone knowlegeable can comment.
while this is not seamless it is much more pricise especially at high gains where vr's become very inaccurate. the behringer has 2.5 db steps which is fine and the same as yamahe and other expensive mixers. again i would not want to use manual gains anymore. what happens if your mixer is on the stage and your keyboarder suddenly increases volume on his keyboard overloading the preamp or someone accidentally touches the gain knobs?

J

 

[John Roberts]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

Not sure this is correct...

Not sure what is correct?

digitally controlled preamps simply replace the vr with analog resistor switches and dont just attenuate...

Nothing simple about it. Digitally controlled preamps use a variant on Digital pot technology with numerous on chip resistors and transfer gate like CMOS switches. The good examples listed are low noise and low distortion comparable to best non-digital controlled preamps. In addition to good performance, they also minimize clicks and pops from switching gain that a simple manual gain switch would have.

perhaps someone knowlegeable can comment.

What exactly is your question? I know a little about it as do some of the other posters.

while this is not seamless it is much more pricise especially at high gains where vr's become very inaccurate. the behringer has 2.5 db steps which is fine and the same as yamahe and other expensive mixers. again i would not want to use manual gains anymore. what happens if your mixer is on the stage and your keyboarder suddenly increases volume on his keyboard overloading the preamp or someone accidentally touches the gain knobs?

J

Yes, digital control chip sets add the extra feature of precision. A manual switched preamp could likewise offer similar precision while not as many steps of resolution.

But those features have a cost associated with them, as has also been well discussed.

JR

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

Where did you get the marketing data to support that claim, and how many units will QSC have to sell to convince you that they might know more about marketing their products than you do?

I was hoping that by prefacing the statement with "It seems", that I wouldn't be faced with a question of market data collection.

Let me re-phrase to a less arbitrary statement.

I know of around 10 users of the DL1608. This device also lacks recallable gains. All of the people that I am aware of that use the DL1608 would prefer that it had recallable gains. Other than this omission, they are all generally satisfied with the mixer.

I personally purchased an X32 Rack specifically because the DL1608 lacked multi-track recording (a feature that the new TouchMix DOES have). Given the difference in price, and the lack of recallable gains on the QSC product, I would still have purchased the X32 rack for this one feature alone.

Based on my own personal preference, and the preferences of those that I know of who are either in the market, or looking in this market segment, recallable gains are a big market differentiation.

Remote operation (as others have suggested) is no longer just a interesting side gizmo. When it comes to digital mixing, it is now the ground floor of expectations. The lack of control for remote channel gains is very important because of this.

Personally, I don't want to have to worry about the gain pots getting bumped in transport like my friends using the DL1608 have reported.

As JR so eloquently stated, the market will decide if this is a needed feature or not. A little time will tell.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

Scott, I think we over-estimate our place in the audio market. The 10 guys you know and the 5 SoundLadies I know don't mean a whole lot. Not in a bad way, but that the market for this unit doesn't need/won't pay for a certain feature set.

Just as you and I both found the Studio Live to be wanting, there is apparently still a market for them.

Consider it a "horses for courses" device.

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

In 1928 Rolls Royce had power windows available on their cars.

The technology existed.

Neither my 2002 or 2013 trucks have had power windows. That feature was not part of the accessories package that met most of my needs and I wasn't willing to step up in price to the package that included them.

That is a normal car buying decision.

I don't go around moaning about other brands of cars with completely different configurations that include power windows at a lower cost than the vehicle I chose to buy. Nor did I try to second guess why, since my truck only has two windows and the cost of a couple of motors is minor compared to the whole truck, the company did not include them.

Because I understand not every product has to have every feature at the price I am willing to pay.

And I also understand that because a product doesn't meet my needs, doesn't make it a bad product.

Actually, from an engineering/design standpoint I prefer simple products that do a few things extremely well over complex products that that to be all things to everybody.

If recallable gains is the number one decision feature, then it would be more effective to shop mixers with that feature then telling a company to redesign something that doesn't have it.

If a band, venue, or church came to us and said we have the budget for a mixer with 12 channels and 2 auxes but we need 10 auxes, we would collectively be laughing at them and telling them the product they picked will never meet their needs. I don't see how this is any different.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

If recallable gains is the number one decision feature, then it would be more effective to shop mixers with that feature then telling a company to redesign something that doesn't have it.

I'm thinking that we sometimes discuss things on a philosophical level or at least a purely academic level. We don't necessarily imply that the product needs to be redesigned, we're not a design committee.
Football fans might discuss that 3rd quarter pass at length, none of them expect that the outcome of the discussion will be that the player goes back in time and executes it differently.

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

So ad nauseum becomes ad nausea.

Actually I believe the Latin means the same as the English so I said the same thing twice.

Now I am repeating myself and probably not as cleverly as I originally thought.

So I will repeat, the BEST digital board is the one someone else bought and pays me to run.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

So ad nauseum becomes ad nausea.

Actually I believe the Latin means the same as the English so I said the same thing twice.

Now I am repeating myself and probably not as cleverly as I originally thought.

So I will repeat, the BEST digital board is the one someone else bought and pays me to run.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD

Gee Jay, maybe Mr. Grinch will leave a bigger lump of coal next year.

Naw, it's probably all for the best anyway, avoiding the Gear Acquisition Syndrome. Small digital mixers are a 'gateway product.'

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

Gee Jay, maybe Mr. Grinch will leave a bigger lump of coal next year.

Now I think you're being unkind, remember we are forcing people to read everything we write, so complaining about being nauseated by all the drivel is quite legitimate. :razz:

I do actually get it, it is annoying reading a lot of drivel in a topic that one is interested in, and I know I'm responsible for a lot of it.

Ooops, I did it again :blush:

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

See what happens when I respond during the day when my students have me in a pissy mood anyways.

Although if next year shapes up like my last couple I will bet I will be one of the few who can claim having done any least one show on each of them.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD

 

[Bob Lee]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

So ad nauseum becomes

It's actually ad nauseam. 8)~~

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

Yep Latin is dead.

I think it was murder.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

Scott, I think we over-estimate our place in the audio market. The 10 guys you know and the 5 SoundLadies I know don't mean a whole lot. Not in a bad way, but that the market for this unit doesn't need/won't pay for a certain feature set.

Just as you and I both found the Studio Live to be wanting, there is apparently still a market for them.

Consider it a "horses for courses" device.

Of course.

I suspect that QSC could take a wedge of market share with this mixer simply from enough people out there who would never purchase a Behringer or Mackie product ..... on the QSC name alone.

As Per stated, this is purely an arm chair quarter back discussion on product design..... with the twist that some of us here have developed electronic products before ourselves.

The built in recorder feature (direct to external USB hard disk as I understand it like the Qu-16) alone will place this product a slice above the DL1608 in many consumers minds. The integrated control surface touch screen will be another USP over the DL1608.

Furthermore, I have a feeling that the QSC product is going to ship prior to the Behringer product which will give it an edge even if the X18 turns out to be the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[Ron Kimball]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

The built in recorder feature (direct to external USB hard disk as I understand it like the Qu-16) alone will place this product a slice above the DL1608 in many consumers minds.

Just to keep the facts straight, the DL1608 does do direct to docked iPad recording - although presently only two channels. Hopefully they will add 16 channel recording soon. You can do a stereo recording now with a different mix than sent to your PA but it's a bit of a kludge to do - I was doing that a couple weekends ago.

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

Just to keep the facts straight, the DL1608 does do direct to docked iPad recording - although presently only two channels. Hopefully they will add 16 channel recording soon. You can do a stereo recording now with a different mix than sent to your PA but it's a bit of a kludge to do - I was doing that a couple weekends ago.

Yep. I should have stipulated..... multi-track recording and playback. Thanks.

 

[Brad Weber]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

Let's say these cost QSC $5.00 per channel at the quantity they're buying them in, if they're almost $9 to you and me in quantities of 1K that could be in the ballpark. The big mixer has 16 channels, times $5 that's $80 just in parts cost. There are some other factors involved since this chipset duo is likely much larger than whatever preamp QSC is using in the box. Take that $80 and apply the usual 4x markup by the time you and I ever see it at retail, and suddenly these cheap little chips aren't cheap at all. The additional cost at retail would be $320, which puts this mixer closer to the M32 Compact than the Mackie DL1608.

While it's going to be less, since the digitally controlled preamp would be replacing the existing preamp don't you need to also credit the cost for whatever preamp they are currently using and that related markup?

 

[Rob Spence]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

While it's going to be less, since the digitally controlled preamp would be replacing the existing preamp don't you need to also credit the cost for whatever preamp they are currently using and that related markup?

And why us this argument even relative? They are not going to redesign based on this thread. Heck,I suspect they are not even going to suffer any sales. I expect they did run the numbers.
My take is these are in the Mixwiz market and those folk don't have recallable gains.


Sent from my iPad HD

 

[Chuck Simon]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

And why us this argument even relative? They are not going to redesign based on this thread. Heck,I suspect they are not even going to suffer any sales. I expect they did run the numbers.
My take is these are in the Mixwiz market and those folk don't have recallable gains.


Sent from my iPad HD

Really! It is amazing to me how some here are so obsessed with details that most don't even care about. And it IS an obsession -these people post over and over again about the same subject! Yes, we know you love your Behringer and nothing else comes close. We get it!
I have two digital boards, one with and one without recallable gains, and I have never lost a gig because I brought the wrong board. Actually, it's something I don't even think about or have even heard about except on internet forums!

 

[Steve Hurt]

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

I've been looking for a mixer to use when iPad mixing is required and also for a backup "just in case" mixer.
I like this format/idea, so I just put my money down and bought a Mackie DL1608
When the Touchmix becomes reality, I'll take a good look at it. If it's an improvement, I'll flip the Mackie and buy one
I know that at this price point, that I can live w/o recallable gains.
What I can't live with is a mixer by Voldemort.
Really don't care what features their vaporware mixer has. That brand will have to live w/o my money