New QSC Product - TouchMix

Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

I don't get that. If someone adjusts the gain whether it is digitally controlled or analog controlled, it is going to affect the mix in the ears. If the bands are running their own sound, there shouldn't be anyone messing with it while they are playing. If they do, having presets is kind of meaningless, isn't it? There has been a change from the preset. People were running their own sound and using in ears before digital mixers with recallable pres. It is amazing we made it this far, I guess.

True, and I have been at more than one setup where monitors fed back because the input gain was changed. Point is...setup mixer, recall preset, no room for potential error. For the crowd this mixer is aimed at it makes sense. YMMV
 
Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

My only point was that a "bar has been set" even in the 16 channel market and Qsc in my opinion released a product under the bar.

What bar are we talking about? Does it involve the B-word?

A similar bar had been set by Yamaha with recallable faders, which Presonus completely ignored and pretty much everyone on this board and the other had no problems with making that concession due to price. Recallable gains/recallable faders...six of one, half dozen of the other.
 
Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

What bar are we talking about? Does it involve the B-word?

A similar bar had been set by Yamaha with recallable faders, which Presonus completely ignored and pretty much everyone on this board and the other had no problems with making that concession due to price. Recallable gains/recallable faders...six of one, half dozen of the other.

I would differentiate between "moving faders" and recallable fader gain. The WYSIWYG feature has merit, but like any feature comes at a price.

Digitally controllable mic preamp trims, is an evolution driven by the semiconductor industry. There are now two off the shelf chip sets that provide this capability without heavy lifting (too much cost/complexity to justify discrete designs).

There is always a bit of guesswork to understand the level of feature content the market considers necessary vs, optional.

I favor bringing mic trims under cybernetic control now that it doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Regarding moving faders, it seems pretty elegant (and cheaper) to just not have any faders,, while the dinosaurs will roar their disapproval. :-(

JR
 
Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

What bar are we talking about? Does it involve the B-word?

A similar bar had been set by Yamaha with recallable faders, which Presonus completely ignored and pretty much everyone on this board and the other had no problems with making that concession due to price. Recallable gains/recallable faders...six of one, half dozen of the other.

The price between the Presonus 16.4.2 and the QU-16 and Behringer has pretty much disappeared and the new Presonus AI still does not have the automated faders. At the time of release, and for quite a while, the Presonus was the hot ticket. Still, Presonus has a nice mixer, but is falling behind their competitors.
 
Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

It seems like there are plenty of people that are in the market for this kind of product who would prefer to have recallable gains. Considering that it is no longer that expensive to implement (especially for limited channel count), I think it was a mistake in the QSC product strategy.

If the only product they had to compete with was the DL1608, the TouchMix would have been a slam dunk with regard to features.

With Behringer offering the X32 Rack and (at some point in time) the X18 with recallable gains, it makes the longevity of the new TouchMix kind of short.

Of course, there are those that wouldn't purchase anything with the word "Behringer" pasted to it. For those, I suspect that the TouchMix will be a better option than the DL1608.
 
Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

It seems like there are plenty of people that are in the market for this kind of product who would prefer to have recallable gains. Considering that it is no longer that expensive to implement (especially for limited channel count), I think it was a mistake in the QSC product strategy.

Where did you get the marketing data to support that claim, and how many units will QSC have to sell to convince you that they might know more about marketing their products than you do?
 
Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

Where did you get the marketing data to support that claim, and how many units will QSC have to sell to convince you that they might know more about marketing their products than you do?

The market is the final arbiter... the customer is always right, even when horribly wrong. :-)

JR

[edit] while the customer is always right, marketing and product developers are not always right. Time will tell. [/edit]
 
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Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

The market is the final arbiter... the customer is always right, even when horribly wrong. :-)

JR

[edit] while the customer is always right, marketing and product developers are not always right. Time will tell. [/edit]

Yes, and Presonus, Mackie, and QSC have and will continue to sell thousands of mixers despite what the marketing "experts" here have to say.
 
Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

... ... the customer is always right, even when horribly wrong. :-)

Hello

That is a wonderful phrase - so many people actually believe it - I have modified it a bit to suit my reality slightly better:;

The customer is perhaps NOT always right - but he/she is a customer !!! Of course there are limits as of how far that is true with me.....
 
Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

Digitally controllable mic preamp trims, is an evolution driven by the semiconductor industry. There are now two off the shelf chip sets that provide this capability without heavy lifting (too much cost/complexity to justify discrete designs).
JR
I'm familiar with the TI/Burr Brown PGA offering. What else is there out there ?.
(Beh do it with a forest of DG411s and resistors - I guess they're cheap)
M
 
Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

I'm familiar with the TI/Burr Brown PGA offering. What else is there out there ?.
(Beh do it with a forest of DG411s and resistors - I guess they're cheap)
M

THAT corp (old dbx IC guys) have a nice digitally controlled preamp chip set (THAT 1570+1571 or 1570+1573).

There may be more, I no longer have reps trying to pimp their latest offerings to me on a regular basis like when I worked at Peavey.

JR

[edit..] BTW the dedicated digital IC sets have sophisticated features like switching gain on zero crossings to prevent clicks, and other cool stuff that is too much work to do discretely for tens of inputs. [/edit]
 
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Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

What else is there out there ?
For all those who are decrying the cost and complexity, you need to get with the program. It just is NOT that expensive anymore.
THAT Corporation Digitally controlled mic preamp

I mean really, you are already going to the effort of creating complex user software that can store and recall lots of information, why wouldn't you recall your mic preamps, too?

This is about repeat-ability and precision. Analog gain pots have neither.

MediaMatrix has been doing digitally controlled input sensitivity and output sensitivity adjustments and phantom power for 14 years now.

The technology has improved tremendously over the past few years and I am looking forward to a day when we do not have to set the input trim by hand and it is fully automated.
 
Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

For all those who are decrying the cost and complexity, you need to get with the program. It just is NOT that expensive anymore.
THAT Corporation Digitally controlled mic preamp

I mean really, you are already going to the effort of creating complex user software that can store and recall lots of information, why wouldn't you recall your mic preamps, too?

Let's say these cost QSC $5.00 per channel at the quantity they're buying them in, if they're almost $9 to you and me in quantities of 1K that could be in the ballpark. The big mixer has 16 channels, times $5 that's $80 just in parts cost. There are some other factors involved since this chipset duo is likely much larger than whatever preamp QSC is using in the box. Take that $80 and apply the usual 4x markup by the time you and I ever see it at retail, and suddenly these cheap little chips aren't cheap at all. The additional cost at retail would be $320, which puts this mixer closer to the M32 Compact than the Mackie DL1608.

I know nothing about QSC's product strategy or whatever, and certainly aren't their defender or spokesman, but it's a lot more expensive than it seems at first blush. If I were in charge of this mixer, I certainly wouldn't add that kind of money to the product's cost for an application a very small percentage of end users are likely going to really care about when they start putting their dollars down.
 
Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

I think when we talk about digitally controlled preamps we should be talking more about remote control capability at this point than recallability. Remote mixing via iPad and the like has gone from a pipe dream to an expected feature in the matter of just a few years and i don't think any mixer manufacturer can afford to ignore this. Is it necessary on a 16 channel console? maybe not. Is it a differentiating feature? absolutely.

As for me, i wouldn't buy any digital mixer at this point that lacked digitally controlled preamps and moving faders...
 
Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

Let's say these cost QSC $5.00 per channel at the quantity they're buying them in, if they're almost $9 to you and me in quantities of 1K that could be in the ballpark. The big mixer has 16 channels, times $5 that's $80 just in parts cost. There may be some other factors involved since this chipset duo is likely much larger than whatever preamp QSC is using in the box, but let's ignore them. Take that $80 and apply the usual 4x markup by the time you and I ever see it at retail, and suddenly these cheap little chips aren't cheap at all. The additional cost at retail would be $320, which puts this mixer closer to the M32 Compact than the Mackie DL1608.

I know nothing about QSC's product strategy or whatever, and certainly aren't their defender or spokesman, but it's a lot more expensive than it seems at first blush. If I were in charge of this mixer, I certainly wouldn't add that kind of money to the product's cost for an application a very small percentage of end users are likely going to really care about when they start putting their dollars down.

Yes mixer-console math means an incremental X dollars becomes 16x dollars or whatever multiplier, while the cost bump is vs a decent standard preamp. Then there's glue to communicate with the preamps, need to indicate gains, etc

I suspect Studiolive rationalized their lack of moving faders as a prudent cost decision. I am not sure all customers agree.

I do not have any idea about QSC's target market (who may not be us), and yes this is a "Feature" that adds cost.

JR
 
Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

Isn't it quite possible that the cost of implementing recallable preamps is very close to zero nowadays? Assuming, for the sake of argument at least, that any preamp without the ability to be digitally controlled has a price, and that more and more preamp chips these days will have the option for digital gain control, the price difference of the chips is likely to be smallish. Furthermore, the price of a pot can't be that much lower than the price of the circuitry needed to implement the digital control. Then, assuming that the dsp or mcu have the communication resources to allow for this extra bit of communication, wouldn't the decision to implement digital only gain control be a fairly low cost one if the decision was made early in the design process?
I haven't compared preamp prices and frankly have no idea what is out there of sufficient quality, but is my train of thought completely derailed by current reality?
 
Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

it doesnt really matter what a preamp cost as it is the competition that sets the mark. the new behringer x18 has 16 programmable mic pres, 12 buses, full recording interface and is 800 us... qsc, mackie,and others should have a close look... making digital mixers without programmable mic pres with all the competition is really nonsense in my opinion...

i just heard from my dealer that midas reduced pricing on all their consoles by more then 30%!!!
also some of the x32's are down in price by 30%. pretty crazy as it is already the best selling desk...

guess there is a major mixer war going on...

J
 
Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

I have less than zero interest with anything that is made by Behringer.

The QSC looks very interesting to me for a "mix ourselves from the stage rig".
Its targeted at those setups, not at sound guys who do many bands.
If you're doing the same band every night, the gains don't need to be recallable. Why pay for what you don't need.

What I need is a mixer made by a company I trust (read -NOT Behringer-) that is :
Small, well thought out, has multiple iPad for mon mixes capability (allows those ipads to only access their mix, not FOH).

This actually looks very well thought out for that. If it was available today, I'd probably go get one.
 
Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

Isn't it quite possible that the cost of implementing recallable preamps is very close to zero nowadays? Assuming, for the sake of argument at least, that any preamp without the ability to be digitally controlled has a price, and that more and more preamp chips these days will have the option for digital gain control, the price difference of the chips is likely to be smallish. Furthermore, the price of a pot can't be that much lower than the price of the circuitry needed to implement the digital control. Then, assuming that the dsp or mcu have the communication resources to allow for this extra bit of communication, wouldn't the decision to implement digital only gain control be a fairly low cost one if the decision was made early in the design process?
I haven't compared preamp prices and frankly have no idea what is out there of sufficient quality, but is my train of thought completely derailed by current reality?
This is clearly an incremental cost increase compared to the manually controlled preamps. Yes the gain control pot (and panel real estate) is a saving, but that is likely a wash with the increases channels of serial digital control (SPI or I2S) that is not expensive but mixer math (16x or whatever) means not free.

I expect the cost increase to be less than some predict, and feature benefit perhaps more than some predict. As always the market will sort this out too.

JR

PS: The THAT preamp is a two chip set where one chip contains the digital gain switching and the other the preamp, so clearly a cost bump. These digitally controlled preamps are not simple to do transparently to the end users so there is lot of glue inside to reduce clicks and zipper noise , etc.
 
Re: New QSC Product - TouchMix

One of the problems we and many other manufacturers have sometimes had is "feature creep." At some point someone has to draw the line and some nice things fall on one side and some nice things fall on the other, especially in a product meant for a time- and price-sensitive market segment.

Digitally controlled recallable preamps were to be in the large-format QSC digital console, so the concept may appear again sometime in the future.