Re: So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
They finally looked up the word 'gain' in the dictionary?
They finally looked up the word 'gain' in the dictionary?
So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
- Thread starter Christian Tepfer
- Start date
Re: So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
I would assume the thinking is that it will present a different load to line level sources (needing less preamp amplification) than microphone sources. You will probably hear a pretty significant sonic difference in the preamp between +17 and +18. You will probably hear with effect most on microphones that have transformers and it will be audible as frequency response changes.
I have several preamps that have the ability to change input impedances, very handy.
That's the important ∆ IMO.
Why?
I would assume the thinking is that it will present a different load to line level sources (needing less preamp amplification) than microphone sources. You will probably hear a pretty significant sonic difference in the preamp between +17 and +18. You will probably hear with effect most on microphones that have transformers and it will be audible as frequency response changes.
I have several preamps that have the ability to change input impedances, very handy.
Re: So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
Hi Mike:
That is an interesting point about the likely sonic change as you reduce the head amp gain from +18dB down to +17dB while the CL's relay steps the impedance down from 10kΩ to 3kΩ.
My thoughts are identical - sonics.
The highest input impedance I've seen to date in a console was the analog Crest at 4kΩ.
It is likely that the great majority of live sound types have never done a shootout speaking into various mics while varying mic preamp input Z as you have.
It's not subtle and EQ will not fix the losses of higher loading (lower Z's). The HF detail particularly from dynamic mics takes a hit when paralleling mic preamps with an analog split to a monitor console.
It is interesting that Yamaha chose to drop back down to 3kΩ with higher voltage output sources such as certain capacitor mics and line level sources. Sources with that kind of output have much lower output impedances, thus degrade far less under 3kΩ and lower input impedances. It's unlikely to be detectable sonically - but I'd love to find out their reasoning behind dropping back down to 3kΩ.
It requires better preamp design to properly deal with RF, voltage spikes and other non-audio garbage with higher input Z's. This is something more often found in high-end low channel count devices, not consoles.
IMO, the 10kΩ input Z with digital gain compensation at monitor world to avoid the parallel loading of an analog split is going to provide a happy surprise for a lot of people.
A very cool development.
Hi Mike:
That is an interesting point about the likely sonic change as you reduce the head amp gain from +18dB down to +17dB while the CL's relay steps the impedance down from 10kΩ to 3kΩ.
My thoughts are identical - sonics.
The highest input impedance I've seen to date in a console was the analog Crest at 4kΩ.
It is likely that the great majority of live sound types have never done a shootout speaking into various mics while varying mic preamp input Z as you have.
It's not subtle and EQ will not fix the losses of higher loading (lower Z's). The HF detail particularly from dynamic mics takes a hit when paralleling mic preamps with an analog split to a monitor console.
It is interesting that Yamaha chose to drop back down to 3kΩ with higher voltage output sources such as certain capacitor mics and line level sources. Sources with that kind of output have much lower output impedances, thus degrade far less under 3kΩ and lower input impedances. It's unlikely to be detectable sonically - but I'd love to find out their reasoning behind dropping back down to 3kΩ.
It requires better preamp design to properly deal with RF, voltage spikes and other non-audio garbage with higher input Z's. This is something more often found in high-end low channel count devices, not consoles.
IMO, the 10kΩ input Z with digital gain compensation at monitor world to avoid the parallel loading of an analog split is going to provide a happy surprise for a lot of people.
A very cool development.
Re: So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
So....that's all a good thing, right?
So....that's all a good thing, right?
Re: So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
Probably.
I think the discussion about the sound of the preamp and how that relates to the sample rate being "hopefully" 96k is really interesting/humorous.
A/D & D/A converter design has come a -loooooonnggg- way since the original manufacture of the M7CL, and the "benefits" of higher sample rates are, at best, overstated, but are often based upon a fundamental misunderstanding of modern (>1985~) conversion theory.
Probably.
I think the discussion about the sound of the preamp and how that relates to the sample rate being "hopefully" 96k is really interesting/humorous.
A/D & D/A converter design has come a -loooooonnggg- way since the original manufacture of the M7CL, and the "benefits" of higher sample rates are, at best, overstated, but are often based upon a fundamental misunderstanding of modern (>1985~) conversion theory.
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Re: So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
Agreed. Add to that in 90+% of *live performance* situations, the limiting factors on perceived sound quality are the speaker system and room acoustics and the issue drops a few notches on the scale of importance.
Also, trying to divorce either the preamp or converter from the rest of the console signal chain is futile. You "hear" the entire signal path, not just the portions one wishes to critique.
Agreed. Add to that in 90+% of *live performance* situations, the limiting factors on perceived sound quality are the speaker system and room acoustics and the issue drops a few notches on the scale of importance.
Also, trying to divorce either the preamp or converter from the rest of the console signal chain is futile. You "hear" the entire signal path, not just the portions one wishes to critique.
Re: So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
Yes, and I'm still having a tough go at convincing people that they need to judge equipment solely on the quality of the line-level output circuitry.
KV2 Audio - LD4 - Line Driver, 4 Channel
Yes, and I'm still having a tough go at convincing people that they need to judge equipment solely on the quality of the line-level output circuitry.
KV2 Audio - LD4 - Line Driver, 4 Channel
Re: So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
But musing on the higher input impedances... I wonder if Yamaha is figuring that they no longer have to plan as much for a couple hundred feet of snake on every input.
A side question on the benefits of the changed impedance spec: Don't the boutique preamps with adjustable input impedance always provide choices of lower impedances than usually found? I've heard it said that an SM57 is much "happier" when loaded down a bit. The higher impedance listed for the RIO preamps seems to go in the opposite direction.
But musing on the higher input impedances... I wonder if Yamaha is figuring that they no longer have to plan as much for a couple hundred feet of snake on every input.
A side question on the benefits of the changed impedance spec: Don't the boutique preamps with adjustable input impedance always provide choices of lower impedances than usually found? I've heard it said that an SM57 is much "happier" when loaded down a bit. The higher impedance listed for the RIO preamps seems to go in the opposite direction.
Re: So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
Yes. I just spent the last two days at NAB farting around with one. I'll post more after I get home tonight.
Re: So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
I've also played with one at NAB.
- It's not 100% clear to me (or the Yamaha CA US) guys how the gain sharing/compensation will work. Best I can tell it remaps the gain know to a digital trim in the console, (seperate for the one in the EQ)
- Custom Fader layers are a global setting. When I asked the Yamaha guys indicated there had been talk of doing this per scene.
- Link groups are more flexible (each group can have it's own scope) but a channel can still be in only 1 link group.
- The didn't have any mic's hooked up to the RIO boxes so no sense on how the console sounds (of course I've been happy with my M7 but then agian it's in a room with a 2.5 sec RT60 w/o audience)
As Justice said more thoughts later. (weekend?)
Philip
I've also played with one at NAB.
- It's not 100% clear to me (or the Yamaha CA US) guys how the gain sharing/compensation will work. Best I can tell it remaps the gain know to a digital trim in the console, (seperate for the one in the EQ)
- Custom Fader layers are a global setting. When I asked the Yamaha guys indicated there had been talk of doing this per scene.
- Link groups are more flexible (each group can have it's own scope) but a channel can still be in only 1 link group.
- The didn't have any mic's hooked up to the RIO boxes so no sense on how the console sounds (of course I've been happy with my M7 but then agian it's in a room with a 2.5 sec RT60 w/o audience)
As Justice said more thoughts later. (weekend?)
Philip
Re: So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
According to the reference manual it works like the PM1Ds do when you share head amps.... It attenuates the "digital" trim to compensate for the change in analog gain..... However It looks like any CL console on the network can set gain (on the PM1D you have to choose one)
According to the reference manual it works like the PM1Ds do when you share head amps.... It attenuates the "digital" trim to compensate for the change in analog gain..... However It looks like any CL console on the network can set gain (on the PM1D you have to choose one)
Re: So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
CL Editor is available now.
CL Series | Mixers | Products | Yamaha
CL Editor is available now.
CL Series | Mixers | Products | Yamaha
Re: So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
Sweet, now if I could only stop spending money long enough to actually sit down and check it out.
Sweet, now if I could only stop spending money long enough to actually sit down and check it out.
Re: So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
Is the CL5 shipping yet? We're getting nearer to the end of "Spring 2012"...
Is the CL5 shipping yet? We're getting nearer to the end of "Spring 2012"...
Re: So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
Yes. They wouldn't let it go on my show, but I was playing around with one in southern France at Arpege 3 weeks ago. It was the first one in France, but that was 3 weeks ago. At the same time they were showing up in England. I'll be at PRG on Friday, I'll look for one there.
Mac
Yes. They wouldn't let it go on my show, but I was playing around with one in southern France at Arpege 3 weeks ago. It was the first one in France, but that was 3 weeks ago. At the same time they were showing up in England. I'll be at PRG on Friday, I'll look for one there.
Mac
Re: So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
I have one on demo this saturday, dealer said they were shipping the first ones to customers "within days".
I have one on demo this saturday, dealer said they were shipping the first ones to customers "within days".
Re: So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
Yes they are. One has been delivered in Denmark and one in the Benelux. Those are at least two that I know of. To end customers, that is.
For anyone in Copenhagen, you can see all three models the rest of today (until 18:00) and tomorrow in Bella Center (Thurs May 31th and June 1st) at Monitor Expo (free admittance).
Yes they are. One has been delivered in Denmark and one in the Benelux. Those are at least two that I know of. To end customers, that is.
For anyone in Copenhagen, you can see all three models the rest of today (until 18:00) and tomorrow in Bella Center (Thurs May 31th and June 1st) at Monitor Expo (free admittance).
Re: So we get new Yamaha desks? CL series
Wow, you can tell a lot about the console from looking at their editors.... this is some serious improvements for Yamaha. 24 rack virtual spaces? Stupendous!
Wow, you can tell a lot about the console from looking at their editors.... this is some serious improvements for Yamaha. 24 rack virtual spaces? Stupendous!