Subs @ 30 for an install

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Matt Lillie

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Jan 11, 2011
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I am looking for some subs for an install. My only requirements are it gets down to an honest 30, will get stupid loud, and doesn't break the bank. I know there are plenty of road boxes that get there, but I don't need/want to spend $$ on "roadworthy-ness", flyware, etc..

Any ideas?
 
Re: Subs @ 30 for an install

Matt Lillie said:
I am looking for some subs for an install. My only requirements are it gets down to an honest 30, will get stupid loud, and doesn't break the bank. I know there are plenty of road boxes that get there, but I don't need/want to spend $$ on "roadworthy-ness", flyware, etc..

Any ideas?
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If your desired magic box existed it would rule the market. It doesn't exist, and not for lack of trying. As an industry we are heading towards louder and lower, but it is a slow progression.

Very few professional boxes make it down to 30Hz, irrespective of price. Hoffman's iron law is simply a harsh mistress. A usable 35Hz is much more common. This can be done at many price points, all relative to required output.

I'd recommend TH112, personally, if you want an off the shelf product. Real extension, reasonable output, nicely built professional box. I would echo Caleb's comments below on sound relative to the rest of the TH lineup. I can't speak to the big new sub he's referencing.

Alternatively you can pay for a custom design. It wouldn't be small or cheap, but it could get the job done.

What is the use case? Why the strong sense of 30Hz?
 
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Danley DBH-218-LC is the first one right off that will do this, depending on budget. True 30Hz and loud is rare.

The TH-112 is ok, but not loud at all, and doesn't sound quite as good as the other Danley offerings in our experience.

Sent from my PG86100 using Xparent Blue Tapatalk 2
 
Re: Subs @ 30 for an install

Matt Lillie said:
I am looking for some subs for an install. My only requirements are it gets down to an honest 30, will get stupid loud, and doesn't break the bank. I know there are plenty of road boxes that get there, but I don't need/want to spend $$ on "roadworthy-ness", flyware, etc..

Any ideas?
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PM sent
 
Re: Subs @ 30 for an install

The Nexo RS18 says it'll go down to 31 Hz.

I heard a pair in an 800 seat theater and they were loud and sounded good, but I didn't get much critical listening time with the whole rig fully tuned.
 
Re: Subs @ 30 for an install

Matt Lillie said:
I am looking for some subs for an install. My only requirements are it gets down to an honest 30, will get stupid loud, and doesn't break the bank. I know there are plenty of road boxes that get there, but I don't need/want to spend $$ on "roadworthy-ness", flyware, etc..

Any ideas?
Click to expand...

ADRaudio JD21. They get stupid loud, go super low, and sound phenomenal doing so. They're not cheap, but you definitely get what you pay for.
 
Re: Subs @ 30 for an install

I just went down this road with some dub step guys. There are 2 ways I know of to get there: 1) A very expensive box. 2) Lots of lesser expensive boxes. Either way it is not cheap. I ended up using method number 2 because I already had lots of horn loaded 18's that would sort of reach down into the 30-35hz range when used in multiples but be 15 plus db down. Massive DSP cuts above 40hz will get you there without blowing anything up if you have enough juice to start with. Boosting below that is asking for trouble in my opinion. For the most part you are not really "hearing" the stuff that low but rather "feeling" it. I am curious as to what you are doing that requires 30hz? There are some fundimental tones used in music that go that low but not very many. The low B on a 5 string double bass at 31hz comes to mind and some of the crazy synth sounds that I have been hearing in dub step but other than that 40hz rocks pretty hard.
 
Re: Subs @ 30 for an install

Matt Lillie said:
I am looking for some subs for an install. My only requirements are it gets down to an honest 30, will get stupid loud, and doesn't break the bank. I know there are plenty of road boxes that get there, but I don't need/want to spend $$ on "roadworthy-ness", flyware, etc..

Any ideas?
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As usual- What is 'stupid loud"? 140dB? 150dB? 160dB?

At what distance? 1M 100M 1000M?

How big is the bank? $1000, $10,000 $100,000 or more?

Does physical size matter?

Does flat to 30Hz really mean FLAT? or are you willing to accept -3, or -10dB? BIG DIFFERENCE

Is that MEASURED flat to 30Hz or a spec sheet that says 30Hz?

Answering these would be a good start.

The more you define the actual target-the better somebody will be able to hit it-maybe
 
Re: Subs @ 30 for an install

Matt Lillie said:
I am looking for some subs for an install. My only requirements are it gets down to an honest 30, will get stupid loud, and doesn't break the bank. I know there are plenty of road boxes that get there, but I don't need/want to spend $$ on "roadworthy-ness", flyware, etc..

Any ideas?
Click to expand...
I agree with Ivan, it would help to try to quantify some of the goals.

Most subs will reproduce 30Hz, but do you need that to be flat to 30Hz, +/-3dB, -10dB or what? And what do you need on the other end as far as the upper response?

Many subs will get "stupid loud" for some applications, but what is stupid loud in one application may be not nearly loud enough in another. Do you have any idea of the desired output levels?

How much are you looking to spend?

If you don't want flyware, how do you plan on mounting them? Will they be floor stacked? Do you have any goals or requirements in terms of size or weight? Can you center cluster the subs or would they be split to either side or some other arrangement?

Do you have the related processing and amplifiers and if so what are they? Getting "stupid loud" with new amps and processing may be quite different then trying to do it with existing amps and processing.

The better you can define your situation and goals, the better people can respond to that information.
 
Re: Subs @ 30 for an install

The "target" I've been assigned by management is to match a rig MSI brought in last season for a special event. MSI brought 6 JBL 4881 powered with IT-12000HDs with VP7215s up top. Of course, my budget is nowhere near that. The 4881 claims -10dB @ 25, -3dB @ 35. So I've been tasked with the impossible yet again :^). My budget can also fluctuate week to week, the longer I wait the less my budget gets as money gets spent in other areas, but then I'll get a call, "We think we can get you another $5k". I haven't done the math yet for what output is for 2k/watts per driver @ 91db 1w/1m, but that is the goal. The room is a 600 capacity club. The current rig is McCauley, 4x SA188 (?, no model # on the boxes) 2x18 powered with a PLX 3402. The McCauleys don't do much below 60, and I've not been a fan of the PLX on subs. So in theory, the current rig shouldn't be too difficult to beat. Matching the MSI rig on my budget, along with all the other things the room needs, will be more difficult. I am open to suggestions.
I've been talking with our SF.net friend Mark regarding the top boxes in the room to see if I can get them workable enough to free up some $$$ for the subs. And of course I got a call Friday to submit my budget by yesterday, and after working the weekend couldn't really start on it until yesterday. So it has to be good, fast, and cheap. Right?
 
Re: Subs @ 30 for an install

Did the math, 4 TH115s with 1375 watts/box would be 10 dB more output than 6 4881 with 2k watts/box. Does that seem right, or did I screw up the math? Too much to do today...
 
Re: Subs @ 30 for an install

Matt Lillie said:
The "target" I've been assigned by management is to match a rig MSI brought in last season for a special event. MSI brought 6 JBL 4881 powered with IT-12000HDs with VP7215s up top. Of course, my budget is nowhere near that. The 4881 claims -10dB @ 25, -3dB @ 35. So I've been tasked with the impossible yet again :^). My budget can also fluctuate week to week, the longer I wait the less my budget gets as money gets spent in other areas, but then I'll get a call, "We think we can get you another $5k". I haven't done the math yet for what output is for 2k/watts per driver @ 91db 1w/1m, but that is the goal. The room is a 600 capacity club. The current rig is McCauley, 4x SA188 (?, no model # on the boxes) 2x18 powered with a PLX 3402. The McCauleys don't do much below 60, and I've not been a fan of the PLX on subs. So in theory, the current rig shouldn't be too difficult to beat. Matching the MSI rig on my budget, along with all the other things the room needs, will be more difficult. I am open to suggestions.
I've been talking with our SF.net friend Mark regarding the top boxes in the room to see if I can get them workable enough to free up some $$$ for the subs. And of course I got a call Friday to submit my budget by yesterday, and after working the weekend couldn't really start on it until yesterday. So it has to be good, fast, and cheap. Right?
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4 of these will make some serious low notes - I've heard them and they are pretty special down in that area.

XS-21 Chimera 21" Bass Horn - Ramsdell Pro Audio Products

They might even be competitive in a bid for the upper boxes too.
 
Re: Subs @ 30 for an install

Matt Lillie said:
I am looking for some subs for an install. My only requirements are it gets down to an honest 30, will get stupid loud, and doesn't break the bank. I know there are plenty of road boxes that get there, but I don't need/want to spend $$ on "roadworthy-ness", flyware, etc..

Any ideas?
Click to expand...

I'm going to recommend a Danley TH221. It will likely replace many, many other boxes and it's flat to 20. No, it's not cheap, but may not be much more than 4, 6, or 8 other boxes, and will probably be as loud.

PS - I'm only half serious with this post.
 
Re: Subs @ 30 for an install

+1 on the Ramsdale XS-21. This and the Danley DBH-218-LC are on my short list to replace what I am currently using for the bottom on dance shows. If you get a chance to listen to either or even the TH115 or TH118 I would do so if you have not. The newer subs go lower and are more musical out of the gate than the massive number of old school cabinets I am having to use to get the dub step job done the way I like to do it. The larger cabinets are much more efficient than the 91db 1w/1m you are mentioning even at the 10db down point.

Another thing worth mentioning is a quote from Art Welter, "At 1000HZ, adding 10 dB SPL sounds twice as loud, while at 20 HZ adding only 5 dB SPL sounds twice as loud. Although Hoffman's iron law prevents most P.A. subs from attempting much below 30-40Hz, if a box is designed for output below that, a little goes a longer way." 4 of any of the above should kill in a 600 seat club if they are properly powered. The Ramsdale and the big Danley will go the extra mile and make people in the first few rows lose their lunch in that size club.
 
Re: Subs @ 30 for an install

My question at this point: Does the TH115 do in reality what it says it will do on paper? The specs on paper are great. 106dB 1w/1m @ 40Hz looks great, but looking closely, the sheet also says it is referenced to 2.83V applied. This is a nominal 4 ohm box? Shouldn't 2V be applied? Another box I'm very familiar with, Adamson's T21, does some goofy stuff on the spec sheet, applies 2.83V to a 2 ohm nominal driver(x2, as it uses 2 2 ohm drivers), and claim an output of 115dB 1w/1m. The T21 is impressive, but not THAT impressive, relative to others.
So if I do my dB calcs, 2v/2.83, logx20, the number is just about -3db down. Still great, 103db 1w/1m but it also states 1/2 space. So now, subtract the 6dB to make an equivalent whole space number, we're now at 97 db 1w/1m. And what does the half space do for the LF extension? Another 6-10Hz? So free field, 1w/1m dB of 97, -3dB @ roughly 46-50Hz? As an example, another box I'm familiar with is a Peavey QW-218. Spec sheet says 100dB 1w/1m, specifies 2V, in whole space (anechoic), with LF -3dB at 47Hz. Their half space spec states 106dB, 1w/1m, -3dB @ 40Hz. So on paper, the TH115 is about equivalent to a Peavey QW218 unless I'm messing up the math somewhere. TH115 is smaller, QW218 is half the $$. What am I missing?
 
Re: Subs @ 30 for an install

I agree about the TH115. It sounds noticeably "different" than a double 18 though. Not quite as apparently loud at the top of the range but it seems to have much more on the bottom and is tighter and smoother down low. The bottom is like nothing else I have ever heard other than another Danley Tapped Horn product.
 
Re: Subs @ 30 for an install

Tim Padrick said:
I'd like to see an unprocessed plot.
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And I wonder about the 1000w RMS / 2000w program power rating. They are using a 21" driver with a 6" voice coil which I would think most likely is a B&C 21SW152. That driver's thermal limits are 2x higher than the Ramsdell spec and that driver has serious excursion capability so it wouldn't make sense that a properly designed cabinet with that driver would run into max excursion capability within the passband before hitting the thermal limits. I am probably wrong, but it still seems weird.
 
Re: Subs @ 30 for an install

Loren Jones said:
And I wonder about the 1000w RMS / 2000w program power rating. They are using a 21" driver with a 6" voice coil which I would think most likely is a B&C 21SW152. That driver's thermal limits are 2x higher than the Ramsdell spec and that driver has serious excursion capability so it wouldn't make sense that a properly designed cabinet with that driver would run into max excursion capability within the passband before hitting the thermal limits. I am probably wrong, but it still seems weird.
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From the pictures on their site it looks nothing like the B&C. Also doesn't look like the Celestion or the Bema. So I'm not sure.
 
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