Re: System advantages/disadvantages
Groaaaaaaaan....
What are you doing, taking out the mids first? :lol:
Groaaaaaaaan....
What are you doing, taking out the mids first? :lol:
System expansion quandry
- Thread starter Simon Coffin
- Start date
Re: System advantages/disadvantages
FWIW, two TH - 118's have replaced four of my 728's in my A- Rig. I think I could add another pair and the SM 80 would still have no problem keeping up.
FWIW, two TH - 118's have replaced four of my 728's in my A- Rig. I think I could add another pair and the SM 80 would still have no problem keeping up.
Re: System advantages/disadvantages
A pair of DSL TH-118 can equal about four JBL SRX 728 (my TH using the same driver as the TH-118 does the same) but according to DSL's specs, at rated continuous power the TH-118 does around 136 dB at 100 Hz.
A pair of TH-118 would do about 142 dB at 100 Hz, while one SM80 does about 118 dB at 100Hz, 24 dB less output.
Even above 200 Hz (rather high for a tapped horn sub, or any sub on the floor) a pair of TH-118 would outrun the SM80 by 14 dB.
Other than EDM and some Hip Hop, I seldom see any pop music recordings with LF peaks below 200 Hz exceeding the upper level by more than 6 dB.
What SPL levels do you generally hit at FOH below 100 Hz and above 200 Hz?
Art
Jonathan,
A pair of DSL TH-118 can equal about four JBL SRX 728 (my TH using the same driver as the TH-118 does the same) but according to DSL's specs, at rated continuous power the TH-118 does around 136 dB at 100 Hz.
A pair of TH-118 would do about 142 dB at 100 Hz, while one SM80 does about 118 dB at 100Hz, 24 dB less output.
Even above 200 Hz (rather high for a tapped horn sub, or any sub on the floor) a pair of TH-118 would outrun the SM80 by 14 dB.
Other than EDM and some Hip Hop, I seldom see any pop music recordings with LF peaks below 200 Hz exceeding the upper level by more than 6 dB.
What SPL levels do you generally hit at FOH below 100 Hz and above 200 Hz?
Art
Re: System advantages/disadvantages
The last ballroom show, I was running around 95dbc average with occasional 103db peaks. Instead of +7db applied to the TH 118 like the show before, I decided to run flat with a little 65Hz bump on the kick channel eq. Monitoring outputs in SA, the SM 80's were around 6db below the TH 118's.
The last ballroom show, I was running around 95dbc average with occasional 103db peaks. Instead of +7db applied to the TH 118 like the show before, I decided to run flat with a little 65Hz bump on the kick channel eq. Monitoring outputs in SA, the SM 80's were around 6db below the TH 118's.
Re: System advantages/disadvantages
Assuming you have four times more power available for the TH-118, sounds like they should run out of gas about when the SM80s do when you start pushing the system.
Did you happen to compare dBC and dBA to get an idea of what the upper frequency ranges were contributing to SPL?
The TH-118 handle +6dB more power than the SM80s.
Assuming you have four times more power available for the TH-118, sounds like they should run out of gas about when the SM80s do when you start pushing the system.
Did you happen to compare dBC and dBA to get an idea of what the upper frequency ranges were contributing to SPL?
Re: System advantages/disadvantages
I did not take any A weighted measurements. I will make sure to do this next show.
I did not take any A weighted measurements. I will make sure to do this next show.
Re: System advantages/disadvantages
Hey, as long as we are talkin' TH's do you think my pair of TH-Mini's equal a single 728 or is it more? They do surprisingly well outdoors with "only" about 1200w each (bridged NU3000).
Re: System advantages/disadvantages
A pair of TH-Mini should do about +3 dB over the SRX 728 above 50 Hz, at 40Hz and below the 728 has about +3 dB, so depending on the music either could do a bit "more", given similar power.
Re: System advantages/disadvantages
FWIW- My shows usually average about 10-14dB more in the LF region than the MF/HF region. And, I mix a lot of pop/rock music!
Evan
FWIW- My shows usually average about 10-14dB more in the LF region than the MF/HF region. And, I mix a lot of pop/rock music!
Evan
Re: System advantages/disadvantages
Looking at the examples of the LF "haystack" response you seem to prefer, I don't doubt it :^).
If you look at the recordings of the pop/rock artists you mix, do you find them to have a spectrum 10-14 dB more in the LF region than the MF/HF region?
On the recent "silly" show that you measured around 112dBA with peaks of 117dBA at FOH, did it measure 126-131 dBC (+14 dB) at the same position?
How much of the 118 dBA was generated by the stage kit alone?
Art
Evan,FWIW- My shows usually average about 10-14dB more in the LF region than the MF/HF region. And, I mix a lot of pop/rock music!
Looking at the examples of the LF "haystack" response you seem to prefer, I don't doubt it :^).
If you look at the recordings of the pop/rock artists you mix, do you find them to have a spectrum 10-14 dB more in the LF region than the MF/HF region?
On the recent "silly" show that you measured around 112dBA with peaks of 117dBA at FOH, did it measure 126-131 dBC (+14 dB) at the same position?
How much of the 118 dBA was generated by the stage kit alone?
Art
Re: System expansion quandry
Actually I am finding that many if not most modern pop, rock, and country recordings ARE mixed with the LF +10-12 and if the system has it built in also for live music then I am pulling it out of the recorded playback.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
Actually I am finding that many if not most modern pop, rock, and country recordings ARE mixed with the LF +10-12 and if the system has it built in also for live music then I am pulling it out of the recorded playback.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
Re: System advantages/disadvantages
Thanks, that was about my own guesstimate without having actually A/B'd them. So, about equal to three 718's above 50 Hz?
Re: System advantages/disadvantages
I always try to have the extra LF there, but turned down such as to be even with the rest of the frequency spectrum in the system processor. Then it just becomes extra headroom for the kick/bass if I want it.
I always try to have the extra LF there, but turned down such as to be even with the rest of the frequency spectrum in the system processor. Then it just becomes extra headroom for the kick/bass if I want it.
Re: System advantages/disadvantages
Fattening the low end with the kick, floor tom, bass, maybe keys (depending on the players left hand) eq channel strip rather than boosting the whole sub bandpass. This approach seems to help me in rooms where low frequency buildup is a problem.
Fattening the low end with the kick, floor tom, bass, maybe keys (depending on the players left hand) eq channel strip rather than boosting the whole sub bandpass. This approach seems to help me in rooms where low frequency buildup is a problem.
Re: System advantages/disadvantages
Those come with other problems, as we all know. Let's not get started with it though, as last time it took up an entire thread of it's own.
~:-D~:grin:
Those come with other problems, as we all know. Let's not get started with it though, as last time it took up an entire thread of it's own.
~:-D~:grin:
Re: System advantages/disadvantages
Hah!! Got that.
Those come with other problems, as we all know. Let's not get started with it though, as last time it took up an entire thread of it's own.
Hah!! Got that.
Re: System advantages/disadvantages
I use the center channel punched into the few channels that go bump in the night.
It works nice.
I use the center channel punched into the few channels that go bump in the night.
It works nice.
Re: System advantages/disadvantages
Certainly seems to be LF heavy on the album... No I'm tempted to pull out smaart and do a measurement!
C weighted measurements from that show were between 119-125dBC. But, I wasn't mixing. 90% of that was the PA- the band had no stage volume aside from drums.
I find that when I mix, I usually average 101-104dBA/117-120dBC(a lot of that centered around 30-50hz) at FOH. But we're drifting off topic!
Evan
Certainly seems to be LF heavy on the album... No I'm tempted to pull out smaart and do a measurement!
C weighted measurements from that show were between 119-125dBC. But, I wasn't mixing.
90% of that was the PA- the band had no stage volume aside from drums. I find that when I mix, I usually average 101-104dBA/117-120dBC(a lot of that centered around 30-50hz) at FOH. But we're drifting off topic!
Evan
Re: System advantages/disadvantages
The levels you currently mix at (not unusual for young audiences for the last three decades) require a system with ten times the output power as would be required for the levels I typically mix at covering mixed age audiences.
The low frequency response you prefer requires about double the LF drivers and amps as what seems typical of most systems I see in use.
Albums played back through a system with a "haystack" LF response will of course be LF heavy. Looking at the response of the recording in the spectrograph or RTA in Smaart will tell what it looks like without the boost. Don't confuse average with peak, even if the LF looks 10-16 dB louder on average, if there are any mid or high peaks within 6 dB of the LF peaks, a system would require only a 6 dB difference in output potential to reproduce them, not 16.
Measuring the spectra of music typical of the artists you work with is a good starting place to determine what system expansion route is appropriate. Not all genres require tons of bass, but if they do, don't leave home without it :^).
Art
I think these discussions are on topic, headroom requirements for different musical and mix styles and levels are huge. For instance, when we used to provide sound for Prince, with Rob Colby mixing we would bring in double the LF of our usual systems which matched LF drivers one to one with low mid drivers, while his previous (deaf) engineer used our normal set up and clipped the high mids!Certainly seems to be LF heavy on the album... No I'm tempted to pull out smaart and do a measurement!
C weighted measurements from that show were between 119-125dBC. But, I wasn't mixing.
I find that when I mix, I usually average 101-104dBA/117-120dBC(a lot of that centered around 30-50hz) at FOH. But we're drifting off topic!
Evan
The levels you currently mix at (not unusual for young audiences for the last three decades) require a system with ten times the output power as would be required for the levels I typically mix at covering mixed age audiences.
The low frequency response you prefer requires about double the LF drivers and amps as what seems typical of most systems I see in use.
Albums played back through a system with a "haystack" LF response will of course be LF heavy. Looking at the response of the recording in the spectrograph or RTA in Smaart will tell what it looks like without the boost. Don't confuse average with peak, even if the LF looks 10-16 dB louder on average, if there are any mid or high peaks within 6 dB of the LF peaks, a system would require only a 6 dB difference in output potential to reproduce them, not 16.
Measuring the spectra of music typical of the artists you work with is a good starting place to determine what system expansion route is appropriate. Not all genres require tons of bass, but if they do, don't leave home without it :^).
Art