X32 Discussion

[Per Søvik]

re: X32 Discussion

I wouldn't put any bit of kit into service without checking it out first... but then my day job involves safety critical systems on aircraft.

Is it not odd that on a brand new product from Boeing, the pilot 8)~~ has to do his own QC before every takeoff? As an airline passenger :?~:-?~:???: I find it worrying that this is necessary!
Would I put a brand new JBL speaker into use without giving it a workout? No
Would I put a brand new parachute into use without repacking it? No

Actually, I think one of the reasons people now are keen to find faults as early as possible is because the X32 is in very limited supply for the time being, so people are painfully aware that any possible issue could potentially take a while to be dealt with because you can't automatiacally expect to be issued a new console or a loaner to tide you over.

 

[Per Søvik]

re: X32 Discussion

Eric, I hope you want a "polarity" reverse for the outputs and not really a "phase" reverse?


Sent from my iPad HD

Strictly speaking, if it is not DC, then it is not a polarity flip, it is a phase flip :twisted:
Then again, since polarity + - is well defined, and α-phase β-phase less so, I might have to admit that you are right ~;-)~:wink:

 

[Eric Hill - USA]

re: X32 Discussion

Eric, I'm using mainly powered speakers, but I don't see that really changing anything in this respect, there is still a need to crossover between tops and subs, and while some top-on-stick-over-sub combos have built in filters, not every speaker has, and the settings might not be right if you have combos of different makes.

As an aside, I have yet to use an active speaker system. My installed system is passive, as is the VRX932 system we use for larger events.

If I can run my setup without having to go through my DRPA+, I'll get better soundquality.

Not just that, but with the ability to save "shows," multiple pieces of equipment don't have to be loaded. Workflow is improved, because there is only one work surface. In addition, rack space and cabling is reduced.

It's very likely, at this point, I'm going to need to re-introduce our processor for a relatively simple crossover.

Unfortunately, that means I'm going to have 3 cables between (1 AES/EBU and 2 XLR's) the doghouse and a rack. I also lose 2U. Worse, I’m going to go through another A/D and D/A on the sub.

I don't really care if I have to learn a part of the desk, like setting up the scribble strips or saving shows or assigning shortcuts and other tasks that aren't obvious at the outset. I don't mind if I have to spend some time to get to a less than common setup, it can be saved on a stick. What I do mind is if I can't do something that I was expecting to be able to do, and the reason I can't do it is purely because the feature has been omitted because someone has deemed it not absolutely mainstream.

In this case, digital speaker processing is mainstream. What's a digital processor? EQ, delay, phase reversal, and routing. The X32 has those abilities in bunches.

Aux (bus) fed subs might be less mainstream. But, people have been doing it for years, and anybody who actually needs 32-inputs of anything should be familiar with the concept.

I think there needs to be a line somewhere. I hadn't looked at the processing spec's for the VRX932 rig we rent. But, looking at them now quickly, doing this with the X32 might be difficult.

Doing the VRX932's passively, with a sub... Need: a BW18, LR48, two Bells, another LR48, and a BW6.

I'm ok with needing processing for that type of rig. If I was mixing on a $20k VRX932 rig all the time, I could probably justify the cost of a different board. Even with the X32, I can justify the cost of processing.

But, looking at our installed system (Renkus-Heinz tops, and EAW sub), I could do that with the X32, if the firmware would allow for BW12 and BW24's on the buses.

I think I'll just keep asking for the things I want, and try to justify them as best I can.

I have a lot of things I'd like to see tweaked. But, only one that I think is worth the development time:

Changes to allow for a crossover configuration, using the L/R and M/C buses. (Filter type selection on the buses, more precision on the output delays, and polarity reversal on the outputs.)

Eric H.

 

[Eric Hill - USA]

re: X32 Discussion

Strictly speaking, if it is not DC, then it is not a polarity flip, it is a phase flip :twisted:
Then again, since polarity + - is well defined, and α-phase β-phase less so, I might have to admit that you are right ~;-)~:wink:

Do you really want to open that can of worms? ~;-)~:wink:

Eric H.

 

[Eric Hill - USA]

re: X32 Discussion

Eric, I hope you want a "polarity" reverse for the outputs and not really a "phase" reverse?

You are correct.

Eric H.

 

[Per Søvik]

re: X32 Discussion

Talking about quality, I've had ribbon cable issues with DBX, JBL, Soundcraft, I might have it with my Behringer 2442FX and my Behringer XL3200, but I hven't got around to checking yet because the issues are small. I've had Boss power supplies fail, never a Behringer. I have several 8500 microphones that have been dropped on concrete, stepped on etc., one of them might be slightly degraded sonically, I have more than one AKG that has died from far more careful treatment. I have a couple of Ultradis that has never failed in any way, an old FBQ1000 that works flawlessly, same with a couple of U-control USB interfaces, never problems. Disaster shows with AKG wireless, speakers from JBL and P-audio that suddenly died (actually the JBL was more of an overnight coma, but that hardly saved the show) Nothing that has ever gone wrong I can blame on a piece of Behringer equipment, so I'm not worried.

 

[Eric Hill - USA]

re: X32 Discussion

Talking about quality, I've had ribbon cable issues with DBX, JBL, Soundcraft, I might have it with my Behringer 2442FX and my Behringer XL3200, but I hven't got around to checking yet because the issues are small. I've had Boss power supplies fail, never a Behringer. I have several 8500 microphones that have been dropped on concrete, stepped on etc., one of them might be slightly degraded sonically, I have more than one AKG that has died from far more careful treatment. I have a couple of Ultradis that has never failed in any way, an old FBQ1000 that works flawlessly, same with a couple of U-control USB interfaces, never problems. Disaster shows with AKG wireless, speakers from JBL and P-audio that suddenly died (actually the JBL was more of an overnight coma, but that hardly saved the show) Nothing that has ever gone wrong I can blame on a piece of Behringer equipment, so I'm not worried.

I've had a couple of Behringer compressors fail. That's about it.

Eric H.

 

[Per Søvik]

re: X32 Discussion

- Changes to allow channel compression to not affect the buses. (When monitors are mixed from FOH, typically you don’t want them compressed. Typically, when faced with that situation, you compress the vocals as a group. There’s probably no reason why another pick-point on the channels couldn't be programmed: pre-compressor/gate, but post-EQ.)

I think you have that, if you set the compressor to be post EQ (I believe it resides there by default), the post EQ pick-up point is pre-comp

 

[Eric Hill - USA]

re: X32 Discussion

I think you have that, if you set the compressor to be post EQ, the post EQ pick-up point is pre-comp

The block-diagram shows what you've described.

I talked with one of the customer support techs Monday, and he couldn't see how to do it, either.

I'll check again and report back.

Maybe we're missing something.

Eric H.

 

[Per Søvik]

re: X32 Discussion

Select post eq and not pre fade for send (in the sends tab on the Home page)

 

[Eric Hill - USA]

re: X32 Discussion

The block-diagram shows what you've described.

I talked with one of the customer support techs Monday, and he couldn't see how to do it, either.

I'll check again and report back.

Maybe we're missing something.

Eric H.

I think you're right...

I think the UI is a little confusing there...

In XControl, if you change the compressor from pre-EQ to post-EQ, the diagram on the Sends tab doesn't appear to reflect that. The diagram seems to always show the compressor after the EQ, regardless of the pre/post setting.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Eric H.

 

[John Roberts]

re: X32 Discussion

Strictly speaking, if it is not DC, then it is not a polarity flip, it is a phase flip :twisted:
Then again, since polarity + - is well defined, and α-phase β-phase less so, I might have to admit that you are right ~;-)~:wink:

Polarity is the correct term.

JR

 

[Per Søvik]

re: X32 Discussion

Polarity is the correct term.

JR

Worms anyone?

It can be argued that when you change the leads around on a speaker or on a physical lead, you are not doing the same thing as when you are inverting the phase of a signal. On a digital piece of equipment, there is no mechanical change, only an inversion of phase, thus....

BTW JR, Uli's got a job for you, I'll have to wait for when the position of Opinionated PITA opens up :twisted:

 

[Alan Geering]

re: X32 Discussion

Is it not odd that on a brand new product from Boeing, the pilot 8)~~ has to do his own QC before every takeoff? As an airline passenger :?~:-?~:???: I find it worrying that this is necessary!

Slightly off topic...

Commercial aviation is very safe and conservative. Suppliers have such stringent quality control at every level (material spec., components, sub assemblies, final assembly). We (engineers) then inspect the part before we fit it, then test the systems we've affected. Often another engineer will conduct a duplicate independent inspection. Even with all of this the pilot is still required to do his walk around and preflight checks.

It is all about the consequence of failure.
Where is the Behringer x32 most likely to be used? Venues from 50 to 5000 people. What's he worst that could happen? No sound.

How about an airliner? 300 bodies in the Atlantic Ocean? It's worth the extra cost to be safe.

 

[Greg Cameron]

re: X32 Discussion

Worms anyone?
View attachment 4693
It can be argued that when you change the leads around on a speaker or on a physical lead, you are not doing the same thing as when you are inverting the phase of a signal. On a digital piece of equipment, there is no mechanical change, only an inversion of phase, thus...

No. Polarity is static & absolute state of signal. Phase involves changes over time. It's not at all the same thing.

 

[Per Søvik]

re: X32 Discussion

Slightly off topic...

Commercial aviation is very safe and conservative. Suppliers have such stringent quality control at every level (material spec., components, sub assemblies, final assembly). We (engineers) then inspect the part before we fit it, then test the systems we've affected. Often another engineer will conduct a duplicate independent inspection. Even with all of this the pilot is still required to do his walk around and preflight checks.

It is all about the consequence of failure.
Where is the Behringer x32 most likely to be used? Venues from 50 to 5000 people.What's he worst that could happen? No sound.

How about an airliner? 300 bodies in the Atlantic Ocean? It's worth the extra cost to be safe.

And yet, despite all this quality control, more than 50% of fighter plane downs and a fair share of commercial mishaps and disasters happen as a consequence of maintainance or routine checks. Makes you wonder if it is worth the effort :razz:

When there is no sound the soundman live to face the embarrassment and blame, the pilot not so much ~;-)~:wink:

Back to topic, the risk and consequence of failure seems to be the only "but" that is left after initial impressions of the X32 are unanimously positive. The X32 is priced low enough and have sufficient network capability that having redundancy wouldn't be a problem even at gigs that are not super critical like live televised events.

 

[John Roberts]

re: X32 Discussion

Worms anyone?
View attachment 4693
It can be argued that when you change the leads around on a speaker or on a physical lead, you are not doing the same thing as when you are inverting the phase of a signal. On a digital piece of equipment, there is no mechanical change, only an inversion of phase, thus....

BTW JR, Uli's got a job for you, I'll have to wait for when the position of Opinionated PITA opens up :twisted:

You could argue that but you would be wrong.

Uli doesn't need to pay me to be a pain in his ass, if that's what you call keeping it honest. I am motivated from years of competing with him in the marketplace and his behavior then, not what he says now, while I always try to be fair.

Polarity vs. Phase shift, vs. phase (as in power distribution) are very old topics with the distinctions well discussed and hopefully widely understood among professionals. This new product has attracted a lot of new eyeballs here that may not have seen the past discussions over many years here and on other professional sound forums.

Feel free to dismiss me as an opinionated pain in the ass, but I came to these understandings from decades of working with this stuff and paying attention to details.

You can argue among yourselves, if you think I am wrong. This is an easy one and I don't like repeating myself (tho I do all too often for newbies).

JR

 

[Uwe Riemer]

re: X32 Discussion

You could argue that but you would be wrong.

Uli doesn't need to pay me to be a pain in his ass, if that's what you call keeping it honest. I am motivated from years of competing with him in the marketplace and his behavior then, not what he says now, while I always try to be fair.

Polarity vs. Phase shift, vs. phase (as in power distribution) are very old topics with the distinctions well discussed and hopefully widely understood among professionals. This new product has attracted a lot of new eyeballs here that may not have seen the past discussions over many years here and on other professional sound forums.

Feel free to dismiss me as an opinionated pain in the ass, but I came to these understandings from decades of working with this stuff and paying attention to details.

You can argue among yourselves, if you think I am wrong. This is an easy one and I don't like repeating myself (tho I do all too often for newbies).

JR

JR,

I think you got this wrong, Per was talking about himself as the PITA.

BTW I would prefer the phase reverse feature, if it doesnt take to long ~~:smile:

 

[John Roberts]

re: X32 Discussion

JR,

I think you got this wrong, Per was talking about himself as the PITA.

BTW I would prefer the phase reverse feature, if it doesnt take to long ~~:smile:

I believe you are correct...mea culpa...

JR

 

[Rob Dellwood]

re: X32 Discussion

Hey all, I am reading for a while, now i am starting to post.

Does anybody has problems with the mute buttons? My X32 sometimes ignores the 6th button in the bus area!
.

I've noticed a possible bug with my X32. My understanding is that the console remembers all the settings and fader positions etc. upon shutoff. Then when powering on, the console returns to the same setttings it had when turned off. My routine before shutdown is to use a mute group button to mute the entire console. What I find happening sometimes is that upon power up, the console seems to randomly 'forget' some of the mutes. Most of the mutes are still on, but some banks and/or individual channels are unmuted. This does not happen all the time, just occasionally.

I also have a question for those using the XControl remote for PC, so Christian or anyone using a PC please jump in. I have a PC tablet (ThinkPad tablet X61) with XControl loaded. The software works great, and controls the console flawlessly. The bug issue is that for my PC, I find that I need to re-load the X32 console IP address on the PC XControl network connect screen everytime I start up the software to use. The XControl software on the tablet 'remembers' an incorrect default console IP address, instead of the actual console IP address that I have entered. So everytime I use the remote PC, I have to manually enter the correct console IP address. Once I do that, everything is fine, and it works great. The problem is that upon shutdown, the next time I use the remote PC, it recalls the same wrong IP address, so I have to re-enter the correct one.

So, am I doing something incorrect in both situations, or are these actual bugs? Both problems are minor issues, and I'm extremely happy with the board and remote editor, but it would be nice to get these issues addressed. Thanks for any info or suggestions!