X32 Discussion

[Greg Hyson]

re: X32 Discussion

OK, here's an observation.

There was no direct output from the X32 to the PA being used. I was monitoring using headphones so as not to interfere with the rehearsal.
I connected up the X32 to my laptop using a CAT5 cable (didn't use USB as I will eventually use a wireless router with the system).
The weird thing happened when I hooked up the USB output from the expansion card to test the 32 track recording.
The moment the USB connection between the desk was made, a loud hum started up on the PA.
I unplugged the USB cable and the hum stopped.
I repeated plugging the cable in and the hum came back.
The problem was solved by removing the mains power from the laptop which would suggest that there is a ground loop of some sort when a laptop is connecting using both the Ethernet (for XControl) and USB (for recording). This was OK for an hour until the battery ran out, which would therefore not be an ideal way to set up for a gig.
I've never had this problem with this laptop (Dell Studio 17) with any system I've used before (used to have a O1v96 connected via USB and audio thru a Lexicon Alpha soundcard).
OK, so a quick fix would be to use a wireless router and connect wirelessly, but why should I have to do this?
If the laptop is sited next to the desk I would always prefer to use a physical connection to a wireless one.

Anyone?

KB

I have a Dell M1210 but I noticed the same thing using it with some other USB audio interfaces. There are many different types of power supplies that dell makes and I noticed if I used a 2 prong Dell supply the hum would be present on the interface, if I used a 3 prong Dell supply I still had the hum but could eliminate it by installing a ground lift adapter on the Dell supply. Try that and see if it works for you. If you have a 2 prong power supply I would try to get hold of the 3 prong and lifting the ground.

Greg

 

[Greg Hyson]

re: X32 Discussion

Hi Greg, It may sound dumb but maybe the small LCD dispays have symetrical connections on opposing edges - maybe the scrreen will still work if rotated 180 degrees but the contrast will be different as viewed from the same angle. Usually these LCD displays have opposing connections made by thin silicon rubber strips imbedded with very thin condutors. Perhaps some of the screens are rotated 180 degrees with respect to each other, this might give the effect your getting. Regards, Rob

Thanks for the theory Rob. I have spoken with support and since I don't live on the continental 48 states it would be more expensive to ship back to Behringer for analysis. We decided it to be best to return for a refund since return shipping would be free. I would love to open it up and mess the internals but it is best if I just returned it for a proper functioning item. When I receive the replacement I will definitely put it through a number of tests.

Greg

 

[Sheriton Swan]

re: X32 Discussion

If you have a 2 prong power supply I would try to get hold of the 3 prong and lifting the ground.

If this were a UK based forum, you'd be jumped on quite severely for suggesting that. I can't claim to be familiar with electrical supplies and regulations in other parts of the world, but certainly in the UK, the mains protective earth (which is there to protect you in the event of a fault) should never be disconnected. Many people have been killed on stage by that kind of stupidity.

 

[Alan Geering]

re: X32 Discussion

I'm using the original Dell PSU, not an aftermarket one.
Thanks anyway. It looks like I'll have to run control over a wireless connection whilst recording over USB.
KB.

KB,

Did you test running with just USB (i.e. no ethernet)? Your previous post says you left the ethernet in whilst plugging/unplugging the USB. You may find that even without the ethernet (i.e. wireless control) you still have the USB noise issue.

 

[Greg Hyson]

re: X32 Discussion

If this were a UK based forum, you'd be jumped on quite severely for suggesting that. I can't claim to be familiar with electrical supplies and regulations in other parts of the world, but certainly in the UK, the mains protective earth (which is there to protect you in the event of a fault) should never be disconnected. Many people have been killed on stage by that kind of stupidity.

I agree with having an earth connection on gear but my suggestion is part a troubleshooting process to determine the root of the problem. There are further solutions that cost significantly more money but it would be nice to identify what the problem is. Unfortunately, wiring is not consistent from building to building or in some cases outlet to outlet within the same building.

 

[Andrew Prince]

re: X32 Discussion

This is strange indeed, because it works automatically everytime I connect my X41 to the X32, BUT got a friend who run into the exact same problem! He tried it with two different computers and he always have to set up the IP manually. I have almost no network or TCP/IP skills, maybe someone could step in. I really would like to know too, what is causing this.
Christian

I haven't yet got an X32 or any of this remote control software, but I do know a bit about routers.

Is this problem not something to do with the IP address and subnet mask of the router? Most routers also have a built in DHCP service. DHCP is responsible for giving out IP addresses to devices on the network, be it wired or wireless. Normally the default IP address of a typical home router is 192.168.0.1 and it puts other devices on 192.168.0.2 and then .3 and .4 etc.

Often, these kind of routers will allow you to reserve IP addresses specific to a MAC address (the MAC address is hard coded into each ethernet device and should be unique to that device).

Kind regards, Andrew
Mama - The UKs 'all era' Genesis tribute band!
Carillon Video - Professional Wedding Videographer & Wedding Video Production Services in Bolton, Manchester & all over the UK

 

[Per Søvik]

re: X32 Discussion

I haven't yet got an X32 or any of this remote control software, but I do know a bit about routers.

Is this problem not something to do with the IP address and subnet mask of the router? Most routers also have a built in DHCP service. DHCP is responsible for giving out IP addresses to devices on the network, be it wired or wireless. Normally the default IP address of a typical home router is 192.168.0.1 and it puts other devices on 192.168.0.2 and then .3 and .4 etc.

Often, these kind of routers will allow you to reserve IP addresses specific to a MAC address (the MAC address is hard coded into each ethernet device and should be unique to that device).

Kind regards, Andrew

In my answer, basically the same as yours, I made the assumption that 192.168.1.1 was the predominant default router address.
I see now that while XControl comes up with 192.168.1.100 as the default address, the X32 defaults to 192.168.0.100 (or notthing at all) and the XiControl defaults to 192.168.2.2

This complicates matters slightly. As long as the default in the XControl is 192.168.1.100, I would go with that and change it on the X32 and on the iPad, and if the router has another default, change that to 192.168.1.1

So the whole process becomes:
Connect PC to access point/router, log into access point set accsess point ip to 192.168.1.1 and enable DHCP. save setting. At this point you might have to reset the pc if the ip address on the router was changed.
Connect again to router to verify and at the same time set a name and a password for the WiFi
Go into Setup and the network tab on the X32 and set ip address to 192.168.1.100, subnet mask to 255.255.255.0 and gateway to 192.168.1.1 and save settings
Plug the x32 into the router and it should be possible to connect the XControl without any fiddling in XControl setup
Connect the iPad to the network, and set it up with password, automatic connect etc.
Start XiControl and go into setup and connections if it doesn't pop up by itself, and set the X32 address 192.168.1.100 and connect.

Finally log into the access point and uncheck "transmit network name", or check "hide network" or something else to that effect to stop peole trying to log onto your WiFi.

 

[Eric Eskam]

re: X32 Discussion

Unless I’ve missed something, there are three (3) items that would need to be changed/added to allow the X32 to be used as a crossover:

Forgive me if this an obvious question/answer to you, but audio newbie in learning mode Our current crestwood analog board has a dedicated fader and separate output for the subwoofer so that the lower frequencies can be controlled independently of the main house volume - and I believe all of the "processing" is being done in the board (no outboard processor, but I'd have to look at the back of the mixer to verify they haven't pulled a fast on e on me). If I follow this part of the discussion correctly, to accomplish the same thing on the X32 I would need some external processing? Not for me so much but as to point out to our normal sound guys as something to start looking into deeper now. Thanks!

I'm working through Mixing Secrets and The Sound Reinforcement Handbook but its becoming apparent to me I really need to get my butt in our venue and start fiddling with this stuff hands on. If we can pick up an X32, the biggest benefit of it is I could record a few practices and services and then I can come in on the off days and play with stuff till my hearts content. It would dramatically speed up the learning process for me! Right now without mutlitrack recording getting sources to play with is entirely manual. I think the whole "virtual soundcheck" thing with digital consoles is probably one of the most underrated advantages when "people in the know" are talking around those of us who are new, or maybe have been fiddling with basic live mixing on and off but aren't as deep. I can't wait until we have this additional tool available to us - it should help greatly! That and it will just be fun to play with all the digital effects and test 'em out...

 

[Eric Eskam]

re: X32 Discussion

Feel free to dismiss me as an opinionated pain in the ass, but I came to these understandings from decades of working with this stuff and paying attention to details.
You can argue among yourselves, if you think I am wrong. This is an easy one and I don't like repeating myself (tho I do all too often for newbies).

John - this newbie appreciates and see's the value in the experience reflected in your posts. If other people don't like your posts, no one is forcing them to read 'em! Or you to respond to them either ~;-)~:wink:

 

[Eric Eskam]

re: X32 Discussion

<<dupe>>

 

[Eric Eskam]

re: X32 Discussion

BTW - if anyone is looking for an excellent, reliable and well beyond consumer-grade wifi access point to use with your X32, I highly recommend APs from Ubiquity networks. The NanoStation Loco would be perfect to mount in the case alongside your X32. And AirOS, the firmware that ships on the device, can provide DHCP so you can have a nice isolated network for just your sound gear.

NanoStation Loco | Ubiquiti Networks, Inc.

Should be $50 or less. It may take you a bit more to get it initially set up than say a linksys or other consumer AP, but it will be FAR more reliable than anything else in that price range. If there is interest, but confusion in configuring 'em, I could cook up a web guide. The only thing is I don't know is if they have an AirOS AP that also has the 5GHz band - the Nanostation is 2GHz only. And to be honest, I haven't had that big an issue with 2GHz where I have used these or when I am using Ubiquity's most excellent Unifi access points. If you are in a 2GHz saturated area it might be an issue. One of the other things I like about AirOS is it has a pretty capable spectrum analyzer built into it - handy to help sniff out wifi channel/interference issues. Anyway I just wanted to point these out before the thread got completely nuts I cringe when I see people demoing or talking about hooking up consumer grade APs. What allot of people don't realize is even if devices are "connected" in that they are authenticated to a wifi network, they are still connected to the radio and lots of consumer gear will lock up in the presence of more than 30 or so devices. If your in a room of 1000 music fans with iPhones, Android and other devices... well...

Also, you may want to take a look at their Mfi automation gear. I think are more than a few in this thread that would appreciate some of the ways that kit could be used creatively!

 

[Per Søvik]

re: X32 Discussion

Forgive me if this an obvious question/answer to you, but audio newbie in learning mode Our current crestwood analog board has a dedicated fader and separate output for the subwoofer so that the lower frequencies can be controlled independently of the main house volume - and I believe all of the "processing" is being done in the board (no outboard processor, but I'd have to look at the back of the mixer to verify they haven't pulled a fast on e on me). If I follow this part of the discussion correctly, to accomplish the same thing on the X32 I would need some external processing? Not for me so much but as to point out to our normal sound guys as something to start looking into deeper now. Thanks!

My old Behringer SL2442FX had the same, you can select subwoofer out on the mono output, so the concept is not new to Behringer. Implementing a crossover on the X32 that will do the job is fairly easy to do, so that shouldn't have to be a worry. Even a x-over that is not as steep as one would ideally like is still adequate in most situations

 

[Frank Pajak]

Re: Send on faders on custom keys

So if we could start a wish list for the X32 developers to consider it appears that having several versions of of this board would be good:

X32 DSP, a magic box that can be run from a PC GUI
X16, Small format of the X32
X3296, 96k version of the board for a phenominal fee, I mean nominal fee.

It also sounds that having presets like the Midas Pro desks have which recall the board in a baseline for monitor or FOH would be good to include, it also sounds that having an additional Recording Preset would be good to have out of the box-

Anyone else have more wishlist items?

Looks good - nice work!
But I'm not sure about the four layers...

@All: Good ideas - keep them coming!

 

[Jim Schmidtke]

X32 Discussion

Does anyone know if there has been any talk of adding the ability to import additional scribble strip icons? As an example, I'd like to have a metronome icon for studio use.

 

[John Roberts]

re: X32 Discussion

If this were a UK based forum, you'd be jumped on quite severely for suggesting that. I can't claim to be familiar with electrical supplies and regulations in other parts of the world, but certainly in the UK, the mains protective earth (which is there to protect you in the event of a fault) should never be disconnected. Many people have been killed on stage by that kind of stupidity.

In the US we call that natural selection.

Re: the OP's hum problem google "pin 1 problem". The x32 is just connecting a noisy device ground to a noise sensitive PA ground, with a proper ground to ground connection. While then laptop PS may be "causing" the hum, the problem is the PA not ignoring noise on it's grounds, like it should. Grounds are the sewers of the audio world, so should not be allowed to contaminate the clean audio.

JR

 

[Eric Hill - USA]

re: X32 Discussion

Our current crestwood analog board has a dedicated fader and separate output for the subwoofer so that the lower frequencies can be controlled independently of the main house volume - and I believe all of the "processing" is being done in the board (no outboard processor, but I'd have to look at the back of the mixer to verify they haven't pulled a fast on e on me). If I follow this part of the discussion correctly, to accomplish the same thing on the X32 I would need some external processing? Not for me so much but as to point out to our normal sound guys as something to start looking into deeper now. Thanks!

I can't speak as to what your analog board is doing.

That said...

The purpose of aux (bus) fed subs is not to have independent direct control of the subs. Nor is the purpose to keep bottom-end out of the tops. The purpose is to keep "non-bottom-end" sources out of the subs. Thus, the subs only have what is specifically being sent to them. The result is a bottom-end that is very clean.

For example, the kick and floor toms, bass guitar, keys, and playback could be routed to the subs. We could omit the rest of the drums, guitars, and vocals.

However, the bottom-end sources must still be included in the L/R buses, and the mono and L/R must still be treated as a bi-amped (or tri-amped) system.

In practical terms:

1. Attach a tone generator to a channel, and feed it a stable tone.
2. Route the channel to the mono buss, and the L/R bus.
3. Use a volt meter to measure the output of the mono bus.
4. Measure the output of the L bus.
5. Measure the output of the R bus.

Those three buses need to have the same measured voltage.

If the channel level is raised, the outputs must still be equal. If the bass EQ on the channel is raised, the outputs must still be equal. If the L/R bus is raised, somehow the mono bus must also be raised.

The mono and L/R buses must track together at all times.

On the X32, the M/C bus fader always stays at 0 dB, and the option "M/C bus depends on L/R" is set to on.

(As an aside, on the X32, linked channels, like coming from a CD player, are set to -6 dB on the M/C bus. They'll correctly sum.)

From there, a crossover on the L/R bus signals is used. A crossover is also used on the M/C bus signal. Delay is set.

After all that is setup, if just the M/C bus (or just the L/R bus) levels are independently changed, the crossover point will change.

Here’s an excellent article on the entire subject:

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article//a_detailed_explanation_of_the_aux_fed_subwoofer_technique/

Bottom line of what we’re discussing on the X32... The routing is functioning just fine. What's missing is the functionality to do the crossover and delay within the X32. The rough abilities are there, they just aren't precise enough.

As an aside, this functionality isn't just about aux (bus) fed subs. The flexible routing in the X32 could be used to bi-amp or tri-amp a system.

Eric H.

 

[Eric Eskam]

re: X32 Discussion

I can't speak as to what your analog board is doing.

Neither can I - at least for the moment

That said...

Thanks! And also for the article link - very helpful! My head hurts, but at least now I know what to go back to on our setup to do some investigating and see if this is an issue. Since we have a dedicated DSP that handles the delay on our house speakers (and the sub too, now that I think about it) I think we are good on that (we have multiple rows of speakers with multiple amps - the DSP manages all that).

I'm just not sure on the cross over aspects - will the X32 be able to feed our DSP with a separate main and sub input as illustrated in the lower part of the first graphic in the article you lined to? That's the question. Some more reading and looking at how our current system is set up will have to happen before I can answer that, but I suspect the answer is yes based on the overall tone of this discussion. Thanks again for taking pity on a newb and providing your excellent and detailed response!

And I guess I should have mentioned we have a DSP for the speakers already

EDIT: And after re-reading that article I already spotted two problems with our mix that can be easily fixed. Awesome!

 

[Eric Hill - USA]

re: X32 Discussion

will the X32 be able to feed our DSP with a separate main and sub input as illustrated in the lower part of the first graphic in the article you lined to? That's the question. Some more reading and looking at how our current system is set up will have to happen before I can answer that, but I suspect the answer is yes based on the overall tone of this discussion.

Yes. Routing is a non-issue.

If Outputs 15 and 16 are being used for L/R (I forget which is which), you can assign Output 14 to pull from the M/C bus, post-fader.

Then, Outputs 14-16 are fed into the DSP.

Unfortunately, if those people mixing are adjusting the mono and L/R buses independently, the concept isn’t understood. Which, begs the question: Was the system correctly setup for aux (bus) fed subs? Or, is there a lack of knowledge that can be corrected with education?

Eric H.

 

[Eric Hill - USA]

re: X32 Discussion

Hi,

Forgive me if I'm missing something simple... Is there a way to save everything in the Library to a USB stick? Or, does each item have to be exported individually?

Thanks.

Eric H.

 

[Yonatan Pandelaki]

re: X32 Discussion

Hi,

Forgive me if I'm missing something simple... Is there a way to save everything in the Library to a USB stick? Or, does each item have to be exported individually?

Thanks.

Eric H.

Behringer X32 - How to Save Scenes to USB Drive - YouTube