Re: Listening Get Together
That rabbit hole has been staring at you since the first post.
You'll never be the same, again.
That rabbit hole has been staring at you since the first post.
You'll never be the same, again.
Listening Get Together
- Thread starter Leland Crooks
- Start date
Mark DeArman
Junior
Re: Listening Get Together
I would still love to know, after I have drank bottle and ate the cake, if what is in the FAQ on the Big E website is really a description of the product...
I would still love to know, after I have drank bottle and ate the cake, if what is in the FAQ on the Big E website is really a description of the product...
Re: Listening Get Together
I am looking forward to attending the get together. I always enjoy appraising new sound gear and I appreciate meeting people that are passionate about pro audio.
Since I'll be coming back to Tulsa from Stillwater it seems silly for me not to stop by!
I am looking forward to attending the get together. I always enjoy appraising new sound gear and I appreciate meeting people that are passionate about pro audio.
Since I'll be coming back to Tulsa from Stillwater it seems silly for me not to stop by!
Re: Listening Get Together
Seems like we've spoken before. Have we met?
Awesome !!! Glad you are going to make it.
Seems like we've spoken before. Have we met?
Mark DeArman
Junior
Re: Listening Get Together
Well golly gee, I wish you the best of luck then. I have nothing to say beyond that.
Well golly gee, I wish you the best of luck then. I have nothing to say beyond that.
Re: Listening Get Together
However that statement and "marketing scheme" is also at the HIGHEST levels of our industry. Just look at the MAJOR players who don't publish any data.
Why confuse people with data-when "fancy words" are all they need to hear.
Works for them---------------------------------
I guess that until we get some real measurements-we will just have to "believe"--------------------------------------------------
However that statement and "marketing scheme" is also at the HIGHEST levels of our industry. Just look at the MAJOR players who don't publish any data.
Why confuse people with data-when "fancy words" are all they need to hear.
Works for them---------------------------------
Re: Listening Get Together
Hi Doug, sorry I didn't make it. I wasn't able to leave Stillwater in time. How did it go?
Hi Doug, sorry I didn't make it. I wasn't able to leave Stillwater in time. How did it go?
Re: Listening Get Together
What do you think happened when they got inside the event horizon of the vortex generators? I guess we would have seen something about it on CNN if the whole thing hadn't been covered up by a federal government agency and shipped off to Area51.
Sooo, I've got these amazing bass cabinets that are capable of projecting low frequencies without hardly any loss over distance, and I'm planning a demo inside a 16 mile road tunnel. Anyone care to come and listen?? :lol:
What do you think happened when they got inside the event horizon of the vortex generators? I guess we would have seen something about it on CNN if the whole thing hadn't been covered up by a federal government agency and shipped off to Area51.
Sooo, I've got these amazing bass cabinets that are capable of projecting low frequencies without hardly any loss over distance, and I'm planning a demo inside a 16 mile road tunnel. Anyone care to come and listen?? :lol:
Re: Listening Get Together
I am completely exhausted.
The listening party went very well. It was well attended.
Leland and I did not take any measurements because we were too busy swapping cabs out for people to hear, answering questions, pricing cabs, etc...
However, there were a couple of guys there who took several measurements of everything. I have asked to get copies of what they did from them.
We played lots of different kids of music (several people brought things they wanted to hear), test tones, and we had some live music.
Complements from everyone there on the clarity and fullness of sound. Keep in mind, we were in a gym and it was still very clear and precise.
The gig that evening was even better. I have never received so many complements, even from people we didn't know, on sound at a bar gig.
Most of the complements had to do with the fact that they could understand every word, and distinctly hear each instrument and articulation.
It was loud, 118db at mix position, 116db at the bar. But it did not hurt. We could still carry on conversations and the bartenders had no trouble interacting with customers.
They were very pleased.
That's all for now. I am too tired to go into any more details.
If you have questions, ask away.
I will follow up with any reviews that I receive, and with any measurements I can get from people who attended.
I'm going to be brief here... listening party stuff from 10am-6pm, straight to gig from there, home at 3:30am, then up at 8 this morning for church.
I am completely exhausted.
The listening party went very well. It was well attended.
Leland and I did not take any measurements because we were too busy swapping cabs out for people to hear, answering questions, pricing cabs, etc...
However, there were a couple of guys there who took several measurements of everything. I have asked to get copies of what they did from them.
We played lots of different kids of music (several people brought things they wanted to hear), test tones, and we had some live music.
Complements from everyone there on the clarity and fullness of sound. Keep in mind, we were in a gym and it was still very clear and precise.
The gig that evening was even better. I have never received so many complements, even from people we didn't know, on sound at a bar gig.
Most of the complements had to do with the fact that they could understand every word, and distinctly hear each instrument and articulation.
It was loud, 118db at mix position, 116db at the bar. But it did not hurt. We could still carry on conversations and the bartenders had no trouble interacting with customers.
They were very pleased.
That's all for now. I am too tired to go into any more details.
If you have questions, ask away.
I will follow up with any reviews that I receive, and with any measurements I can get from people who attended.
Re: Listening Get Together
Doug, I don't know your background but you'll likely find that people here want more detailed descriptions. They may want to hear about factors such as the pattern, the phase response and so on. They may want to know what processing was applied, what amplification used, etc. They may be interested in the relevant backgrounds and experience of those offering measurements and comments. And they may question anything presented that seems counter to their experience or physics. So when you get time to present more you might want to consider some of those factors.
Not just the numbers but how they were measured would be nice.
What speakers were involved? Were there any other speakers for comparison? To what do you ascribe the results, not a simple "the speakers" but what in specific?
Were the speakers the only thing different or were the band, mics, mix, etc. also different? What is the system usually used there?
Was that 116-118dB peak or average levels? Unweighted, A-weighted or C-weighted? I don't care what the source is, if it was truly that loud and vocals were articulate through the sound system then the associated high SPL at speech frequencies would cause speech interference.
Doug, I don't know your background but you'll likely find that people here want more detailed descriptions. They may want to hear about factors such as the pattern, the phase response and so on. They may want to know what processing was applied, what amplification used, etc. They may be interested in the relevant backgrounds and experience of those offering measurements and comments. And they may question anything presented that seems counter to their experience or physics. So when you get time to present more you might want to consider some of those factors.
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IF, and that is a mighty big if, the system was producing 116 db in the speech range, there isn't a chance in hell for normal conversation unless your idea of normal is shouting directly in someone's ear.
It has nothing to do with clarity or articulation, it has everything to do with overcoming 40 db of level difference.
Re: Listening Get Together
This is becoming my guilty pleasure topic, you know it's just awfull but you can't turn away from it and keep coming back for more..
This is becoming my guilty pleasure topic, you know it's just awfull but you can't turn away from it and keep coming back for more..
Re: Listening Get Together
By the way, I live in the bar/club circuit and I don't know of any venue that would let you get away with 116-118 db levels...ever.
They want their bartenders to hear drink orders and could care less about how loud your PA can go.
around 105dba is the max. at the bar area without being asked to turn it down.
By the way, I live in the bar/club circuit and I don't know of any venue that would let you get away with 116-118 db levels...ever.
They want their bartenders to hear drink orders and could care less about how loud your PA can go.
around 105dba is the max. at the bar area without being asked to turn it down.
Re: Listening Get Together
Also present were (2) BFM Jack 12's and (2) BFM Titan 39's. We did not get around to listening to the Jack's, but we did try the Titan 39's.
The Titan's wouldn't even keep up with the MinE25's
For bass cabs, we used a BFM Omni12TB, a fEARful 12/6/1, BigE 6x6, GC46, and a combination MinE25 and RachE12.
The Combo MinE25/RachE12 won that comparison hands down.
I don't know how else to describe that, other than to say that I have never heard that level of clarity in such an acoustically bad space.
Speaking of the gym of course, but the club also. It's a decent sized space, but the ceilings are very low (maybe 8-9') with a sunken (maybe 30x30) dance floor.
Hopefully Leland will chime in here and describe more. I think he has a better understanding of what's happening here than I do.
The venue owners and patrons said it was the best sounding band that they had ever had in there.
As far as the band's equipment, everything was the same as they normally use except for the speakers.
He and I had no trouble understanding each other talking. Of course we had to be close and use loud voices, but we could still have a conversation.
The bar owners and bartenders all warned us before we started that they did not like it loud at the bar because they couldn't understand the customers.
They explained that this was a problem with every band they had in there, they have to ask them to turn it down a little.
They never complained all night and commented afterwards about how they didn't have trouble interacting with customers and understanding drink orders.
NOTE: I typically run bar bands at around 105db average. I guessed that's about where I was until Leland showed me the meter.
I have asked for all measurements from the guys who were there, along with reviews of what they heard. I will also ask for their backgrounds and experience.
Amplification used at the listening party and that night's gig were Ashly KLR4000's.
There were no other processors used other than a crossover and light compression on vocals and kick.
I will get as much information as I can from them.
At the listening party, we used: (2) MinE25's, (4)GC46's, (2) RachE12's, and (2)RachE18's
Also present were (2) BFM Jack 12's and (2) BFM Titan 39's. We did not get around to listening to the Jack's, but we did try the Titan 39's.
The Titan's wouldn't even keep up with the MinE25's
For bass cabs, we used a BFM Omni12TB, a fEARful 12/6/1, BigE 6x6, GC46, and a combination MinE25 and RachE12.
The Combo MinE25/RachE12 won that comparison hands down.
The inventors have explained to me that because of the way the vortex generates sound, that it does not interact with room modes and reflections in the same way that conventional speakers do.
I don't know how else to describe that, other than to say that I have never heard that level of clarity in such an acoustically bad space.
Speaking of the gym of course, but the club also. It's a decent sized space, but the ceilings are very low (maybe 8-9') with a sunken (maybe 30x30) dance floor.
Hopefully Leland will chime in here and describe more. I think he has a better understanding of what's happening here than I do.
That was the first time that band had played that venue. There were many people there who had heard the band in other places. They said it's the best they had ever heard them sound.
The venue owners and patrons said it was the best sounding band that they had ever had in there.
As far as the band's equipment, everything was the same as they normally use except for the speakers.
I believe it was average but Leland will have to confirm (he was taking the measurements).
He and I had no trouble understanding each other talking. Of course we had to be close and use loud voices, but we could still have a conversation.
The bar owners and bartenders all warned us before we started that they did not like it loud at the bar because they couldn't understand the customers.
They explained that this was a problem with every band they had in there, they have to ask them to turn it down a little.
They never complained all night and commented afterwards about how they didn't have trouble interacting with customers and understanding drink orders.
NOTE: I typically run bar bands at around 105db average. I guessed that's about where I was until Leland showed me the meter.
Very briefly, my background in live sound extends back about 24 years, the last 14 of those being professionally. I have been full time for the last 5 years. I mostly do installs for a living and I am the technical director for a large church in my area. In addition, I have played in many bands over the last 24 years. Guitar, bass, drums, vocals... and I teach jazz at the local high school.
I have asked for all measurements from the guys who were there, along with reviews of what they heard. I will also ask for their backgrounds and experience.
Amplification used at the listening party and that night's gig were Ashly KLR4000's.
There were no other processors used other than a crossover and light compression on vocals and kick.
Re: Listening Get Together
I never said "normal conversation". I said you could still have a conversation and the bartenders did not have any trouble understanding drink orders.
Re: Listening Get Together
As I stated before, I typically run bar bands at around 105db. I thought I was around that same level until Leland showed me the meter.
I don't either.
As I stated before, I typically run bar bands at around 105db. I thought I was around that same level until Leland showed me the meter.
Re: Listening Get Together
Avg, C weighted, taken with my calibrated Android running AudioTool. I saved it, but I'm not sure how to get the RTA off the phone, nor if it's a file readable by anything other than itself. I have not used AudioTool that much yet. I'll get to that this evening. I was as surprised as Doug at the measurement.
They don't interact with room modes like a normal speaker. In the gym, not a null to be heard. In the bar, 1 null about a foot wide behind 1 pool table in a random location. About a 3db drop in bass, I could just barely hear it. The meter was how I found it. We split the subs, the power alley was about 3 inches wide on the dance floor. You had to move pretty slowly to even find it.
We have some pretty good reasoning as to why, but I am afraid it will lead someone down to path to figuring out what these are if I go into too much detail. I have had a couple of really sharp guys email me pretty accurately describing what we believe. Patents are not done. As soon as I get a few more built, I am going to offer MinE2x5's for demos. Users only, no mfgs. I will need an NDA.
I know it sounds insane. It took the designers 6 months of emails and phone calls to convince me to even look. I don't claim to have the knowledge of some of the posters on here, but I am not a novice. And then it was only because I was already going to Chicago to learn how to do composite cabs, and they happened to be close by. I just stopped by their place to get them to leave me alone. Why me? They trust me. TBH, we need help figuring out how to measure these things. I think EASRA using impulse noise will work. Going to download the demo and see. Sinusoidal testing does not display what we hear. The vortex requires lf energy to function.
Feel free to correct my grammar :razz:
Avg, C weighted, taken with my calibrated Android running AudioTool. I saved it, but I'm not sure how to get the RTA off the phone, nor if it's a file readable by anything other than itself. I have not used AudioTool that much yet. I'll get to that this evening. I was as surprised as Doug at the measurement.
They don't interact with room modes like a normal speaker. In the gym, not a null to be heard. In the bar, 1 null about a foot wide behind 1 pool table in a random location. About a 3db drop in bass, I could just barely hear it. The meter was how I found it. We split the subs, the power alley was about 3 inches wide on the dance floor. You had to move pretty slowly to even find it.
We have some pretty good reasoning as to why, but I am afraid it will lead someone down to path to figuring out what these are if I go into too much detail. I have had a couple of really sharp guys email me pretty accurately describing what we believe. Patents are not done. As soon as I get a few more built, I am going to offer MinE2x5's for demos. Users only, no mfgs. I will need an NDA.
I know it sounds insane. It took the designers 6 months of emails and phone calls to convince me to even look. I don't claim to have the knowledge of some of the posters on here, but I am not a novice. And then it was only because I was already going to Chicago to learn how to do composite cabs, and they happened to be close by. I just stopped by their place to get them to leave me alone. Why me? They trust me. TBH, we need help figuring out how to measure these things. I think EASRA using impulse noise will work. Going to download the demo and see. Sinusoidal testing does not display what we hear. The vortex requires lf energy to function.
Feel free to correct my grammar :razz:
Re: Listening Get Together
Doug - with respect - this and what's written on the BigE speakers page contradict the established laws of physics. This fact, and the hyperbole used in describing your products, as well as your and Leland's limited measuring chops are raising more than a little ire around here.
What your speakers seem to tout as their key feature [desirable time smear] runs completely counter to the design goal of virtually every other professional loudspeaker - eliminating the multi-path problem and the interference that causes. Until "the inventors" can explain why your product's counter-intuitive secret sauce can get around the last 100 years of acoustics, you're not going to make any headway here.
I would suggest that before you and Leland invest too much personal capital in this project, that you run the science gauntlet and see if the Emperor is wearing any clothes or not. Several very smart people around here have offered to help. I suggest you figure out how to utilize them.
Doug - with respect - this and what's written on the BigE speakers page contradict the established laws of physics. This fact, and the hyperbole used in describing your products, as well as your and Leland's limited measuring chops are raising more than a little ire around here.
What your speakers seem to tout as their key feature [desirable time smear] runs completely counter to the design goal of virtually every other professional loudspeaker - eliminating the multi-path problem and the interference that causes. Until "the inventors" can explain why your product's counter-intuitive secret sauce can get around the last 100 years of acoustics, you're not going to make any headway here.
I would suggest that before you and Leland invest too much personal capital in this project, that you run the science gauntlet and see if the Emperor is wearing any clothes or not. Several very smart people around here have offered to help. I suggest you figure out how to utilize them.
Re: Listening Get Together
It's pretty well established that phones are unreliable as dB meters, particularly above 100dBA.
Leland - I don't care about your grammar, but the combination of unbelivable claims and poor testing methodology need to be corrected.