60 Degree DIY Mid Hi - AKA PM60

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Peter Morris said:
:)~:-)~:smile:… Raimond’s software gives great results. I suspect you are now getting the sound quality I have been talking about. It’s quite special, and if I do say so myself, I have not heard better.
It’s nice to know other people are getting the box to that point. Thanks for your input into this project Raimonds.
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Yes, It keeps getting better and better. The only limitation so far has been my skills in getting the settings right.

We have an outdoor Christmas event coming up on 12/19 for about 1,600 and that should be an opportunity to really test them out.
 
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Don J Davis said:
Yes, It keeps getting better and better. The only limitation so far has been my skills in getting the settings right.

We have an outdoor Christmas event coming up on 12/19 for about 1,600 and that should be an opportunity to really test them out.
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Hi Don, could not agree more more...it keeps getting better and better and i am miles and mile behind you in tuning ability, and many more miles still behind Peter !

Hey, 'sometimes' I can get an entire between-the-stripes, albeit-crooked-as-hell, smaart phase lol
But seriously, as my tuning improves, I'm realizing what a really great design you've given us Peter.

Getting phase and repsonse through x-over, along with timing, down. I really like harry brill's method of overdoing delay on tops and then delaying bottoms until phase aligns... I start all the way at VHF for the top, then HF, then Mid, then f***ing subs ...haha
Do you guys know an easier way?

Good luck on the Christmas event...1600 folks and some DIY's...excellent !
 
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Hi Don,
- "The only limitation so far has been my skills in getting the settings right."
You should use some CAD – computer aided design – for that task ...

Hi Mark,

What about to check out your tuning results with tool that is directly showing your timing achieved?
Usually sub band has natural (or caused by subsonic filter introduced only in sub band) excess delay and all other bands should be delayed for that amount to have proper time alignment. It means – the tuning should be started from LF.
 
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Raimonds Skuruls said:
Hi Don,


Hi Mark,

What about to check out your tuning results with tool that is directly showing your timing achieved?
Usually sub band has natural (or caused by subsonic filter introduced only in sub band) excess delay and all other bands should be delayed for that amount to have proper time alignment. It means – the tuning should be started from LF.
Click to expand...
Hi Raimonds,

Yes, I've been watching the guys use your software with great interest, and plan to try it myself as soon as i feel i've gained enough requisite experience to make reliable consistent measurements (and know what I'm measuring and what i'm not :)

I understand what you are saying about starting tuning from LF, realizing VHF will end up being the most delayed band.

What I was saying about starting from VHF with Smaart is ....starting with a delay on VHF that I know will be greater than ultimately needed.
Then adding delay to HF until it is in line with VHF, find the difference and know that is the timing between those two,.... and add it to VHF.
Then iterate this process to MF, adding the difference to both HF and VHF.
And then to the sub, adding difference to all three bands above.
Finally subtract whatever delay was needed on the sub, from all 4 bands, bringing the sub to zero.

Learned this in a Smaart class from Harry Brill.
I like it because Smaarts delay finder always seem to pick the highest freq (if energy isn't overpowering somewhere lower).
So if I set my mic and use more delay than I will ultimately need, I never have to reset delay finder in Smaart as I toy with different X-over freq, slopes, etc, in the lower bands
And I can find delay on the lower bands by just trying to bring phase traces together.

I think what Smaart really needs, and I'm beginning to see is something your software provides (as I do yet really understand it) ...is a delay finder, that plots delay by freq ..
Correct?
 
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Mark Wilkinson said:
Hi Don, could not agree more more...it keeps getting better and better and i am miles and mile behind you in tuning ability, and many more miles still behind Peter !
Click to expand...

Mark,
You'll get there, no substitute for time using the software. Try different speakers, set ups etc, tweak away and watch the affects. I've tried things and thought I had it only find out I screwed it up. Hopefully I learn a little each time. Peter and others are decades ahead of us in hands on experience, but fortunately for us they share that experience freely.

Raimonds TDA software is really pretty easy to use once you try it.
 
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Don J Davis said:
Mark,
You'll get there, no substitute for time using the software. Try different speakers, set ups etc, tweak away and watch the affects. I've tried things and thought I had it only find out I screwed it up. Hopefully I learn a little each time. Peter and others are decades ahead of us in hands on experience, but fortunately for us they share that experience freely.

Raimonds TDA software is really pretty easy to use once you try it.
Click to expand...

Don, many thanks for the encouragement !.... pretty obvious how low i am on the learning curve huh, haha

I did get a first try in with Raimond''s software....pretty neat for sure. Showed me crosser issues between MID and HF I hadn't seen in smaart.

How do find Raimond's ties to Smaart, in terms of comparing with it leads you to tweak, vs what smaart leads you to tweak
 
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Is it only possible to remedy discrepancies found with Raimonds software with FIR filters or is it possible to make corrections with processors not equipped with these?
 
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

David Sturzenbecher said:
Both Smaart V7 and Systune can display phase as group delay.
Click to expand...

Anyone else use this method for EQ design? I typically find it much easier to visualize the required filters. The phase curve tends to hide things, much like viewing the magnitude on a dB scale, the derivative can reveal the shape better, at the expense of noise.
 
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Raimonds Skuruls said:
Hi Don,
- "The only limitation so far has been my skills in getting the settings right."
You should use some CAD – computer aided design – for that task ...

Hi Mark,

What about to check out your tuning results with tool that is directly showing your timing achieved?
Usually sub band has natural (or caused by subsonic filter introduced only in sub band) excess delay and all other bands should be delayed for that amount to have proper time alignment. It means – the tuning should be started from LF.
Click to expand...

Hi Raimonds,

What I’m most curious about is the difference I get between Smaart / Systune and TDA EQ measurements.

The conclusion I have come to is that “anechoic flat” is probably what I want as the basic speaker setting; but it’s not what I’m measuring with Smaart or Systune in the real world conditions I can generate (speaker flown about 3.5 to 4m high) , especially in the low frequency end of the spectrum.

I have a reasonable understanding of FFT based analysis but I’m not sure exactly how your TDA EQ works for the purpose of generating the results I need.

How accurate is TDA EQ compared to an anechoic measurement; and for the purpose of developing a standard speaker setting what do I need to do to get the best results.
 
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Just a quick update on using the DIYs. Our original event for 1600 was cancelled so we provided for a Christmas event in Watts. The city closed a street on an entire block. The stage was near one end so we were shooting down the length of the street.
2 DIYs per side with 10 SRX single 18's.
The sound was fantastic (IMO) and carried a long way down the street with excellent clarity. The tops were just cruising while subs had to be driven pretty hard to keep up.
Here is a photo of the set up.
 

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Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Peter Morris said:
Hi Raimonds,

What I’m most curious about is the difference I get between Smaart / Systune and TDA EQ measurements.

The conclusion I have come to is that “anechoic flat” is probably what I want as the basic speaker setting; but it’s not what I’m measuring with Smaart or Systune in the real world conditions I can generate (speaker flown about 3.5 to 4m high) , especially in the low frequency end of the spectrum.

I have a reasonable understanding of FFT based analysis but I’m not sure exactly how your TDA EQ works for the purpose of generating the results I need.

How accurate is TDA EQ compared to an anechoic measurement; and for the purpose of developing a standard speaker setting what do I need to do to get the best results.
Click to expand...
Hi Peter,

What you and we need – uncolored sound from speaker – therefore we need an accurate description of loudspeaker’s performance, and only of the loudspeaker but as much as possible complete description. There I should turn to the paper:
https://soundforums.net/content/3636-Equalizing-loudspeakers
http://aplaudio.com/downloads/Equalizing_loudspeakers.pdf


Due to high complexity of loudspeaker’s directivity, the one point (on axes) measurement is insufficient to describe loudspeaker’s performance (theoretically it possible to find a loudspeaker that is working all the way in piston motion and has equalized directivity). There for TDA EQ is using multiple points (25 as first idea) and making Impulse Response that is representing all that points at first processing step. That IR is stored in the result folder. The second step is to find the equalizer that corrects this IR by use of amplitude information of TDA processing.
TDA curves before and after EQ are helping us to understand that result.

The result of TDA EQ and the result of anechoic measurement (classical steady state) should be very similar or even identical. But you should keep in mind the 3:1 rule even if you have your system flown 4m high for the real world conditions.
 
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Hi Raimonds, thanks for further study material.

In the TDA.pl graph .... the black "tornado" that represents timing .... is that timing for a given frequency, whenever it arrives, irrespective of phase?
Or is is timing adjusted to represent when a frequency arrives with zero degree of phase shift?
I'm thinking the latter.....
 
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Mark Wilkinson said:
Hi Raimonds, thanks for further study material.

In the TDA.pl graph .... the black "tornado" that represents timing .... is that timing for a given frequency, whenever it arrives, irrespective of phase?
Or is is timing adjusted to represent when a frequency arrives with zero degree of phase shift?
I'm thinking the latter.....
Click to expand...
Hi Mark,

The phase is parameter from „steady state” analysis – from pretty large time interval. It means, it is seriously affected by quality of IR that is obtained from the system under test. You can improve its quality by shortening window but for a price of reduced resolution in LF or even complete loss of information about LF.

You can call the TDA graph as spectrogram. Very high resolution spectrogram.
And it is like well known Impulse Response but with one more dimension – frequency – added.

And the phase. I hope you know that phase and time are connected by derivative or integral. It means, if you now time curve, you can calculate a phase curve by integration of time curve. And this curve will highly depend from the zero time point you have set for your time curve.
If we know the time curve, the phase curve is loosing any value.
 
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Hello guys, i'm new to this forum.
I'm from The Netherlands and my English is poor, understand the basic but not the technical english talk.

I realy like your design Peter!

in a few weeks i'm going to build a few of this cabs, i hope you guys help me. I'm not a professional in building my own speaker cabs and i'm not a professional in PA-Audio. just a hobby so i realy need some help when i'm going to build this cabs.
No experience with Smaart but im going to learn that.

I'm building 16 Punisher bass cabs right now. 4cabs are already finished, my amp are Powersoft k20 and i have a Xilica 4080 processor.
my plan is to build 4 of your cabs. I hope its enough for the 16 punishers? Please advice.
What version is best for me? 60 or 90 version? ( Ground stack )

i want to make it bi-amp. so i need a crossover for the high driver?
i need a 16 ohm version? BMS 4594 HE and a BMS C16-16 crossover. That will make it 8ohm input right.
I have 2 Crown XTI-6000 that i will going to use on the 12inch drivers is this oke?. So i need a 3th amp I think i'm going to buy another Crown XTI for the high drivers. Can you recommend me what type i need? How many watts amp do i need?

Thanks.
 
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

dennis pieter said:
Hello guys, i'm new to this forum.
I'm from The Netherlands and my English is poor, understand the basic but not the technical english talk.

I realy like your design Peter!

in a few weeks i'm going to build a few of this cabs, i hope you guys help me. I'm not a professional in building my own speaker cabs and i'm not a professional in PA-Audio. just a hobby so i realy need some help when i'm going to build this cabs.
No experience with Smaart but im going to learn that.

I'm building 16 Punisher bass cabs right now. 4cabs are already finished, my amp are Powersoft k20 and i have a Xilica 4080 processor.
my plan is to build 4 of your cabs. I hope its enough for the 16 punishers? Please advice.
What version is best for me? 60 or 90 version? ( Ground stack )

i want to make it bi-amp. so i need a crossover for the high driver?
i need a 16 ohm version? BMS 4594 HE and a BMS C16-16 crossover. That will make it 8ohm input right.
I have 2 Crown XTI-6000 that i will going to use on the 12inch drivers is this oke?. So i need a 3th amp I think i'm going to buy another Crown XTI for the high drivers. Can you recommend me what type i need? How many watts amp do i need?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
I does matter what impedance 4594 you use. I used 16ohm because it makes the noise floor (hiss) of the amplifier less noticeable, but a 16 ohm driver will need a more powerful amplifier than the 8 ohm version.
If you use a passive crossover between the HF and VHF the impedance does not change. 16 ohms 4594 with a C16-16 crossover will still be 16 ohms.

I find the 90 degree box the most useful, but if you are planning on using more than one box per side the 60 degree version is the best option.

The DIY was designed to be used with PEQ. The mids in particular will need some correction. You will probably need Smaart or Systune to assist in determine the final settings.

The amplifier you are suggesting with the appropriately set limiters will be fine.

 
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Thank you for your quick answer Peter.

Best for me is to build the 60 degree versions and maby i build a pair extra 90 degree version. Its a little shame that i have not learn Smaart yet, a friend of my is helping me with the Smaart part but for this project i realy need to learn it. But youtube and experiment will help me. I think its not so hard to learn.

I will keep you guys updated when i'm going to begin the build. I just ordered already some 15mm plywood for this project.
 
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