Copyright, Patent, General Intellectual Property Discussion (Branch from M32 Thread)

[Arik Semagin]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

No, it's not the same thing Arik. One company like Behringer hiring former employees of another manufacturer, using the intellectual property of that other manufacturer to build identical products is not the same thing as one company offering similar products to different retailers with different skus.

The big deal is that engineers do lots of hard work to do something truly revolutionary, and the competition swoops in, maybe does a better job making it cheaper (because they did not have the RnD and other expenses built into it), or gets it out faster. This has happened to Peavey more than a few times. This did not start with Behringer.

I disagree, Brent. It's a very thin line between what ideas belong to a company/employer an what he or she (employee) may bring with when going to work for someone else. Essentially it's a thinking process inside one's head that lead to that invention, it stays within that head. My inventions now (none yet) automatically become intellectual property of Apple, Inc, terms of my employment, but nothing can prevent me from inventing/designing something similar if I'll go to work elsewhere. And it's hard to say what influence the current Apple environment may have on it.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Mackie got tangled up in the rise of customer acceptance for Chinese built goods, and their huge marketing investment in being US made ("Made in USA by Mackoids")..... Mackie eventually gave in to the compelling marketplace dynamic but were late to the change with several missteps. Since their original model was a form of value proposition (selective professional features at MI prices, and carpet bombing advertising). No amount of advertising could overcome the 20% or 30% cost deltas and their original business model collapsed. Before they could retrench a lot of their market place momentum was captured by similar looking products made in China.

JR

Very true, John. Even as Chinese manufacturing proponent as I am (All our Apple stuff is made in China, even X-Servers that run iTunes), I must admit: Chinese-made Mackies are not the same. I have 12 older SRM-450s (grey), all Italian-made, except for couple "Made in USA" that are identical to Italian. They do sound different than Chinese-made grey 450s, punchier and cleaner. Yes, woofer is different in Chinese ones, but overall they don't sound anywhere close to Italian.

I think Mackie also missed the target by not offering truly revolutionary products since SRM-450 and CR-1604 mixer (may be 24-8 too). These were a hit, everything since was just like everyone else's. Big SRs and HDs (1521, 1530) are no match to QSC offerings, even at lower price. Mackie is the one who should've came up with X32, super cool and affordable true digital mixer for masses, like 1604 once was back in 90s.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Very true, John. Even as Chinese manufacturing proponent as I am (All our Apple stuff is made in China, even X-Servers that run iTunes), I must admit: Chinese-made Mackies are not the same. I have 12 older SRM-450s (grey), all Italian-made, except for couple "Made in USA" that are identical to Italian. They do sound different than Chinese-made grey 450s, punchier and cleaner. Yes, woofer is different in Chinese ones, but overall they don't sound anywhere close to Italian.

Chinese gear built with identical components, built to identical build standards, will be identical.

I recall when Peavey started building guitar amps in China, we had to literally ship spring reverb pans to China from the US, because we could not source Chinese made reverbs that didn't suck. They looked identical but were not. The same thing goes for loudspeakers. If the components are not the same, the end product will not be the same (doh). I see this as a Mackie manufacturing management problem, not a Chinese build problem. Somebody somewhere made a cognizant decision to relax the product standard. Many small companies make a related mistake of relying upon Chinese contract manufacturers to make low level manufacturing decisions that are not completely spelled out in the production line assembly routings. The solution for this is to either have western boots on the ground in the factory, and/or get your documentation complete.

Hon Hai (aka Foxconn, aka Apple's contract manufacturer) is now opening a US factory. I do not know how much of this political appeasement, and how much is the dynamic of increasing cost in China and improving manufacturing conditions here (lower energy costs here are a good thing). it seems robots can work as cheaply here as there.

I think Mackie also missed the target by not offering truly revolutionary products since SRM-450 and CR-1604 mixer (may be 24-8 too). These were a hit, everything since was just like everyone else's. Big SRs and HDs (1521, 1530) are no match to QSC offerings, even at lower price. Mackie is the one who should've came up with X32, super cool and affordable true digital mixer for masses, like 1604 once was back in 90s.

Don't overestimate what Mackie brought to the game. In my judgement as a direct competitor they changed the game mainly with their marketing. The product was far from revolutionary. They added PFL to a small mixer, then touted it in blanket advertising as the "must have" new feature. It worked because they advertised that first mixer, more than some other larger established companies spent advertising hundreds/thousands of skus. Mackie did not have the chops to even make a robust large format analog console, let alone digital console. While not rocket science, it is science with a learning curve. I saw multiple early digital console programs that never made it to market because the user market was small at high early days digital console prices and the technology development hurdle was high.

JR

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

You have to understand what happened to Mackie to appreciate that they are even alive right now. Guitar Center canceling huge orders, bankruptcy, new owners (bean counters that couldn't tell you what an XLR is), move to China, loss of manufacturing abilities and unable to ship product for a VERY long time, lawsuits over using their own name in China, etc, etc. Mackie began sealing it's own fate with their first digital consoles. I don't think anybody wanted anymore of them. Once people figured out their $10k consoles were PentiumII computers in the age of the Pentium4, people did the math and saw/heard that they were not that great of a deal. Mackie said they would always continue to develop the d8b. That didn't happen. They said they would develop the TT24. That console has a cult following, but they are terrible. We installed some of the first released and all 7 have had multiple power supplies replaced. We know of one still working. The rest have been sold to parts scavengers. Nah, Mackie did it to themselves and never set themselves up for success from the beginning. They should have remained analog and worked to improve that.

Greg Mackie had a chance to make a good comeback with the QSC boys, developing their interface, etc. We will probably never see that work.

If I understood you correctly, Greg Mackie works or worked at QSC now? If so, no wonder they are great.

I think Mackie story is typical for companies started by great engineers but poor businessmen. Like in every industry. There were Blackberry, Treo, Nokia with Simbian, now all we see as major players are iPhone and Android.

About tt24 failure, I don't think that many people care about what's inside, P-II or P-IV, as long as desk does the job and has good UI. (MIDAS Pro desks run on standard PC motherboard just fine, not even the most advanced one, I don't think anybody ever asked if it's Pentium, i5 or whatever). Probably overall design and build quality is what made tt24 fail. d8b system was good, I had one, briefly, but it's a wrong turn again, creating own incompatible production system from scratch when everyone went to Pro Tools and Logic already. MCU and MCU Pro were more successful.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Chinese gear built with identical components, built to identical build standards, will be identical.

Don't overestimate what Mackie brought to the game. In my judgement as a direct competitor they changed the game mainly with their marketing. The product was far from revolutionary. They added PFL to a small mixer, then touted it in blanket advertising as the "must have" new feature. It worked because they advertised that first mixer, more than some other larger established companies spent advertising hundreds/thousands of skus. Mackie did not have the chops to even make a robust large format analog console, let alone digital console. While not rocket science, it is science with a learning curve. I saw multiple early digital console programs that never made it to market because the user market was small at high early days digital console prices and the technology development hurdle was high.

JR

Can't agree with you, John. SRM450s are different and do sound differently, I tested Italian and Chinese 450s side by side many times, they are. First thing you notice is a smaller center cap on woofer in Chinese 450s, could be smaller voice coil, so drivers are obviously different, I don't know if they confirm to the same specs or not.

As for Mackies vs. Peavey analog mixers, I should say Mackies are more feature-ladden (I think PFL is important for live work), comparing to similarly-sized Peavey Unity series (can't say anything about current ones, lost interest in them after switching to digital). My big ass SR40-8 Mackie mixer that I used to haul around was cool too, with more features than in comparable Soundcraft or A&H boards, I think it's their best large-format console (80-series ONYX boards came just too late). Surprisingly I didn't have any problems with it, despite bitching on forums, still works in a church that I sold it to. Recording series (24-8 and 32-8) had more problems, though there were more of those in existence.

 

[Joe Sanborn]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Dear Brent,

We have noticed on multiple occasions that you made derogatory comments about the quality of our products as well as our company in general and we unfortunately had to correct you several times in relation to those false statements. Last time we spoke with you and the reseller you work for, you were quite apologetic and it is saddening to see the same behavior come back. Equally interesting are your comments about “morality”.

1.) Please list out the components that you believe are inferior and explain why.
2.) Which employees have we hired to build which identical products?
3.) Provide evidence that we copied the Mackie 8-bus PCB’s.
4.) Provide evidence showing which of our PCB’s carry other manufacturers names.
5.) Provide evidence about “carbon copies” of AKG/dbx designs.

In terms of our dispute with Mackie and other competitors, Uli had commented earlier.
“One of the cases that endures in people’s memories is when we were sued by Mackie over alleged infringement of their alleged IP. After a series of very costly and bitter court cases which we all won, Mackie reached out to us for a settlement which did not involve any money. It was proven in court that we had not copied their schematics or PCB layouts, nor had we infringed on any patents as there were none.”
http://soundforums.net/junior-varsity/4299-uli-behringer-music-group-q-3.html#post29360
http://soundforums.net/junior-varsity/4299-uli-behringer-music-group-q-3.html#post29363

Brent, we have reminded you previously that making false statements is not only unethical but also illegal. Just because there is freedom of speech does not give you the right to engage in slander.
We fully agree with Josh from Peavey, that your derogatory comments are highly disturbing and irresponsible.

Dear Brian, in respect to the alleged “inferior” connectors we have to correct you. Most of our connectors are now made by Neutrik (Rean) and we are enjoying a wonderful relationship with this excellent manufacturer.
Music Group connects with Neutrik | Pro Audio industry news | Audio Pro International

Dear TJ, your statements are equally incorrect. We continuously license technology where appropriate and have previously licensed technology from Line6 and others. However as a general rule, technology is free for everyone to use provided it is not protected. We are also not here to “re-write history” as you stated but to tell our side of the story by providing facts and engage in a respectful, factual and meaningful communication.

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Dear TJ, your statements are equally incorrect. We continuously license technology where appropriate and have previously licensed technology from Line6 and others. However as a general rule, technology is free for everyone to use provided it is not protected. We are also not here to “re-write history” as you stated but to tell our side of the story by providing facts and engage in a respectful, factual and meaningful communication.

Mr. Sanborn, how much did Behringer pay Ebtech to "license" their Swizz Army cable tester trade dress and function? I was not at any of the trials involved and do not have personal connections to any of these fights as others on the forum do, but I do have eyes. If there is/was some kind of IP relationship here, I will desist. If there wasn't, Behringer and I are left with a difference of opinion on where the ethical line of innovation vs. copying is. As there doesn't seem to have been any legal action here and both products are still for sale, Behringer's CT-100 is apparently "legal-enough"; the result being that I will continue to enjoy my Ebtech product, and others will use their Behringer product.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

.....your statements are equally incorrect. We continuously license technology where appropriate and have previously licensed technology from Line6 and others. However as a general rule, technology is free for everyone to use provided it is not protected. We are also not here to “re-write history” as you stated but to tell our side of the story by providing facts and engage in a respectful, factual and meaningful communication.

Good post, Joe! Facts, facts, facts! I don't know why people like to bitch about Behringer copying and quality so much, especially bitching in general or about products they never owned or used personally. With B you are getting your money's worth, most of the time more than you pay for, and most B-branded gear works fine. I never had to resolder cold joints in Behringer analog mixers and did it many times in Mackies. Is Behringer-fobia is indeed an infectious disease?

People are so naive than when they read "Mackie was suing Behringer" or whoever they automatically assume that Mackie won. NO! Get the facts! Most patent lawsuits are settled outside of court, and in many suing party ends up paying for lawyers at both sides.

As for Neutrik connectors and Alps faders, just because those are considered the top-of-the line and must-have in your gear doesn't make them much better in actual use. Nothing is wrong with Amhenol and others, these are just damn dry contacts. As for faders, the only thing I care that I can get the replacement one and won't have to tear the whole desk apart to swap it. (Love MIDAS Pro desks for that!)

 

[Brian Adams]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Dear Brian, in respect to the alleged “inferior” connectors we have to correct you. Most of our connectors are now made by Neutrik (Rean) and we are enjoying a wonderful relationship with this excellent manufacturer.
Music Group connects with Neutrik | Pro Audio industry news | Audio Pro International

Joe, thanks for the response and clarification, that's definitely good news for everyone.

My statement was in regard to a product I have personal experience with, and found fault with. Obviously my testers are from a different era, prior to your contracting with Neutrik, because I just pulled a CT100 out and the connectors are clearly labelled CHUNSHENG. And based on my experience with these connectors, I think it was a great move for you to contract with Neutrik/Rean instead of using whatever these connectors are. Rean connectors are decent, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that CHUNSHENG aren't.

I wasn't trying to disparage the entire Behringer product line, I was just relaying my experience. I have several Behringer products that do what they're supposed to do, but my CT100's didn't.

Also, I'm not anti-Behringer, I was pretty much sold on the X32 until the M32 came out. Now I have to wait and see if the upgraded design is worth the upgrade in price.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Mr. Sanborn, how much did Behringer pay Ebtech to "license" their Swizz Army cable tester trade dress and function? I was not at any of the trials involved and do not have personal connections to any of these fights as others on the forum do, but I do have eyes. If there is/was some kind of IP relationship here, I will desist. If there wasn't, Behringer and I are left with a difference of opinion on where the ethical line of innovation vs. copying is. As there doesn't seem to have been any legal action here and both products are still for sale, Behringer's CT-100 is apparently "legal-enough"; the result being that I will continue to enjoy my Ebtech product, and others will use their Behringer product.

You still didn't say what was wrong with Behringer CT-100 that you won't buy it again. Is just the fact that it was copied from whatever or Behringer-fobia in general?

BTW, there are no proof that Behringer didn't licensed his "copy" either, and if it's indeed a copyright violation, besides similar look.

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

You still didn't say what was wrong with Behringer CT-100 that you won't buy it again. Is just the fact that it was copied from whatever or Behringer-fobia in general?

BTW, there are no proof that Behringer didn't licensed his "copy" either, and if it's indeed a copyright violation, besides similar look.

I have never owned a Behringer CT-100, or any other Behringer product, for that matter. I proudly speak only from second-hand information - reports of other users - and my observation of the appearance of business practices that I don't personally agree with. I'm not qualified to judge whether Behringer violated or not the varied intricacies of international IP laws, however I am VERY qualified to judge the suitability of a product for my own use. One of the first features I look for is a sticker that doesn't say Behringer on it; both from a desire to have the piece of equipment be reliable, and from a desire to support companies whose business practices align with my own values.

I'm glad you're happy with the state of the current musical equipment industry - it is what it is, and Mr. Behringer's business plan is clearly a successful one.

 

[Rob Spence]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Am I under some wrong impression or are we straying a bit far from topic?

Will there be a M32 hands on chance on the PLS?

Gesendet von meinem XT910 mit Tapatalk

Agreed. I am tired of this company bashing in general and specifically lack of topic related posting. This isn't a topic swerve, it is a total pileup.

Take it to the basement. This is the pro forum.
Sent from my iPad HD

 

[John Roberts]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Can't agree with you, John. SRM450s are different and do sound differently, I tested Italian and Chinese 450s side by side many times, they are. First thing you notice is a smaller center cap on woofer in Chinese 450s, could be smaller voice coil, so drivers are obviously different, I don't know if they confirm to the same specs or not.

You disagree that "Chinese gear built with identical components, built to identical build standards, will be identical. " ?? You seem to be supporting my argument by pointing out that the components don't even look the same, thus explaining their sounding different because they are different. QED

As for Mackies vs. Peavey analog mixers, I should say Mackies are more feature-ladden (I think PFL is important for live work), comparing to similarly-sized Peavey Unity series (can't say anything about current ones, lost interest in them after switching to digital). My big ass SR40-8 Mackie mixer that I used to haul around was cool too, with more features than in comparable Soundcraft or A&H boards, I think it's their best large-format console (80-series ONYX boards came just too late). Surprisingly I didn't have any problems with it, despite bitching on forums, still works in a church that I sold it to. Recording series (24-8 and 32-8) had more problems, though there were more of those in existence.

Peavey's low end mixers were sharp pencil very low feature content designs, that do not need defense from me. PFL was not considered necessary for low end sound reinforcement until millions of advertising dollars created that new market need/awareness. I was in those trenches and recall it happening in real time.

JR

 

[Juergen Riemann]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

I believe the old mackie speakers used italian made rcf speakers... which where later replaced with chinese ones. of course they would sound different...

 

[Christian Tepfer]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Agreed. I am tired of this company bashing in general and specifically lack of topic related posting. This isn't a topic swerve, it is a total pileup.

Take it to the basement. This is the pro forum.
Sent from my iPad HD

My thoughts as well. I think it's mainly because the M32 is not out "in the wild". I would like to be prepared to a show on the M32 when I have to mix on it. So I think it's best to know some basic concepts of a new console upfront.

Both company bashing and praising doesn't help a mixer person like me trying to know everything I have to know technically to do my job. So please can we just open new topics for IP discussions and such? I think there's room for this also but not necessarily in a mixer topic. It's just too hard to filter...

Gesendet von meinem XT910 mit Tapatalk

 

[Chris Johnson]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

We must also remember, that the manufacturers desire for cheap (potentially offshore, although I think often the motivation is cost, and offshore just happens to be the way of achieving that) is equalled only by the consumers desire for cheaper products.

Consumers are as responsible for this as manufacturers...

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

You disagree that "Chinese gear built with identical components, built to identical build standards, will be identical. " ?? You seem to be supporting my argument by pointing out that the components don't even look the same, thus explaining their sounding different because they are different. QED


Peavey's low end mixers were sharp pencil very low feature content designs, that do not need defense from me. PFL was not considered necessary for low end sound reinforcement until millions of advertising dollars created that new market need/awareness. I was in those trenches and recall it happening in real time.

JR

John, I guess I disprove myself. These SRM450 aren't the best exampe. As you know, I'm pro-Chinese manufacturing, done the right way, as we do at Apple or Behringer does. There's no single quality standard there, just like here in America. There is Foxconn trusted enough to make our iPhones and iPads and Tseng-something no-name manufacturers making shit. It's not so black-and-white (good-or-bad) as it may look.

As for small Peavey mixers, they do the job fine, basic mixing. I found PFL quite useful, but bunch of people have so little understanding of mixers.... I've seen quite a few Mackie owners trying to plug two 1/4" plugs from iPod (carrying stereo signal, obviously) into line AND insert jacks on mono channel on CR1604. "PFL what?"

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

I have never owned a Behringer CT-100, or any other Behringer product, for that matter. I proudly speak only from second-hand information - reports of other users - and my observation of the appearance of business practices that I don't personally agree with. I'm not qualified to judge whether Behringer violated or not the varied intricacies of international IP laws, however I am VERY qualified to judge the suitability of a product for my own use. One of the first features I look for is a sticker that doesn't say Behringer on it; both from a desire to have the piece of equipment be reliable, and from a desire to support companies whose business practices align with my own values.

I'm glad you're happy with the state of the current musical equipment industry - it is what it is, and Mr. Behringer's business plan is clearly a successful one.

That's what I've thought, a case of "Behringer-fobia", reading other's shit and making up your own. "I just can't stand Behringer name".

I would never trash products I didn't own or worked with and that CT100 tester is flawless. As most of other Behringer stuff I have, quite a bit. You know people like to bitch about bad things in life ten times more than about good ones. Same on forums. An old 1622FX mixer bought used at Guitar Center for $50 is also works flawlessly, despite extreme abuse it takes (dropped, left in the rain, driven hard on inputs, etc.) My kid uses it quite often for his parties, and it still works fine.

I like your line "I proudly speak only from second-hand information". Nothing really to add. Saw something, heard/read something but no actual user experience. Beautiful!

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

That's what I've thought, a case of "Behringer-fobia", reading other's shit and making up your own. "I just can't stand Behringer name".

I would never trash products I didn't own or worked with and that CT100 tester is flawless. As most of other Behringer stuff I have, quite a bit. You know people like to bitch about bad things in life ten times more than about good ones. Same on forums. An old 1622FX mixer bought used at Guitar Center for $50 is also works flawlessly, despite extreme abuse it takes (dropped, left in the rain, driven hard on inputs, etc.) My kid uses it quite often for his parties, and it still works fine.

I like your line "I proudly speak only from second-hand information". Nothing really to add. Saw something, heard/read something but no actual user experience. Beautiful!

Once in a while, I am successful at learning from other people's mistakes. I have also avoided smoking, doing coke, and a number of other dubious things by watching the results of other people's decisions.

Welcome to the virtual Iggy Bin.

Sorry to the forum for feeding the topic swerve this far.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Once in a while, I am successful at learning from other people's mistakes. I have also avoided smoking, doing coke, and a number of other dubious things by watching the results of other people's decisions.

TJ, your example is way off. There's difference between doing obviously stupid things like drugs or smoking and actual experience working with sound gear. If I've read all the shit about Mackie and Behringer mixers that's of forums I would probably never bought neither. Luckily I didn't knew how "bad" they are, so I was quite happy with them. SR32-4 was my last analog board and paid for itself many times over, not a single problem with it!

Last thing I would trust is bitching on forums about how bad this or that piece of equipment is. Industry publications review like Sound-on-Sound may have more value, but they are often done from technical expert's point of view, rather than real user. Sometimes they point "lack of something" that really not important or just doesn't exist, so until I have a chance to use it myself, I wouldn't even make up my mind and spill my "opinions".