Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Spenser Hamilton said:
Are we getting into inertia, and it's effects on cone movement?
Click to expand...

I didn't intend to go there. FWIW musical sound sources, and even air in the sound space have mass too, so can't be accelerated instantly.

Loudspeaker driver physics is mature and fairly well understood.

Ironically perhaps TD's old servo drive speakers were quite dramatically different, but most customers response to the SPL first, accuracy later (IMO).

===

again sorry about the veer... carry on.

If there was a shoot out, who got killed?

JR
 
Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

John Roberts said:
Transient response of a sub seems like an oxymoron. While perhaps a useful metric in the context of full band reproduction.

I wonder how Danley technology that seems to integrate bandpasses together more coherently might make a difference in this context?
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JR,

An oxymoron is a figure of speech in which incongruous or seemingly contradictory terms appear side by side.
Transient response is the response of a system to a change from equilibrium.
Transient response is not limited to high frequencies, though by definition the transient response time of a HF event is faster than a LF event.
If you find that incongruous, we have a semantic difference of opinion ;^).

An underdamped LF (or HF) response will "ring", the output level oscillates until finally reaching a steady-state value.
That type of ringing can make a sub sound "slow" even when the initial portion of the transient event is phase aligned with the top cabinet.
Danley's sub cabinet's phase response are all good (smooth) to well above the intended crossover region, and coherent alignment does sound better than incoherency, at least to me!

An example below of a band pass sub and an old Acoustic Research acoustic suspension speaker shows a big problem with the BP- it does not want to "play nice" in the 100 Hz crossover region, it goes through a 360 degree phase change in less than 1/3 octave.

Line up the phase response in the crossover region, it lags by a cycle below.
Decidedly less "punchy".

I spent a long time getting Phil Graham's Resopump BP design to work like the sims (it is very sensitive in the pass band) but ultimately found it was perhaps the worst sounding sub I'd ever built.
This is in sharp contrast to the usual syndrome where the most recent development always seems to be the best sounding...
Sold the driver to Ivan, he reported a far better bandwidth, sensitivity, and "punch" used in a different design.
I have since figured out some of the secrets, but there are always more.

Art
 

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Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Not to wrestle over semantics, yes a stick stuck in the mud has a transient response while one might expect not very quick to respond to input changes.

One might even carry on a Clintonesque debate over what "good" transient response means? Quick, or well behaved? Either answer could be correct in different contexts.

I won't argue about what general understandings are, I know you know how this all works.

For clarity regarding what I mean, a properly operated LF bandpass box is generally limited to reproduce frequency content within it's bandpass so talking about quickly changing signals involves other cabinets.

The physical action called a "punch" suggests a rapid forceful movement in mostly one direction. I understand that this is not a literal analogy for "loudspeaker punch".

Regarding underdamped or over damped systems, under-damped systems can overshoot in response to an impulse, while over-damped will under shoot. Optimal damping could depend on adjacent bandpass tuning that should roughly complement each other and combine in the crossover region benignly. I can imagine how an underdamped system with overshoot might be characterized by some as "punchy" because it overstates impulses/transients. (I understand that low bass cabinets are not always treated as a linear extension downward of the full range system that needs to mate smoothly, but sometimes is used as an separate sound source with it's own volume control.)

Again, sorry to veer and dissemble. Still interested in what Ivan means by Punch.

JR
 
Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Clinton-esque? How about "I did not have... transient response with that... woofer, sub woofer".
 
Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

John Roberts said:
The physical action called a "punch" suggests a rapid forceful movement in mostly one direction.
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I have a bit more playing to do-BUT you are on the right track.

Think of it this way. What waveform shape has the most rapid rise? A square wave. Not as in clipping as most would want to think.

But what is a square wave made up of? SINE WAVES.

So if we look at a couple of sine waves. A low freq sine wave has a slow rise-while during the same "time period", a higher freq sine wave will rise much faster.

So there in lies the basis of the testing we were doing.

We took 3 different Danley subs (because they were redily available). TH812-VERY flat response. IHOP (current name) which has a large rise above 100hz, and a TH118 (kinda inbetween the others-freq response rise.

So i matched the responses (subtractively) to the highest high pass and the lowest low pass the cabinets had naturally. Basically using eq and changing crossover slopes and rates.

Then we listened (of course the levels were matched). WOW they sounded very close now-but still a few differences. We used a single SH46 as the full range cabinet-high passed at 100hz.

So then I did a quick (not getting real precise) alignment to the Sh46. I put a long delay on the SH46 and adjusted the delay to each of the subs as needed to get close.

Now it got scary. I would really hate to have to choose which one had the most "punch". I was not doing the switching-and if I closed my eyes-I could not tell when the subs were changed.

NOW KEEP IN MIND the following. This was after a long busy day-late at night-not having anything to eat since lunch etc. But the people in attendance (5 of us) all come from very different sound backgrounds-prefer different types of music and so forth. But we all agreed.

When I could see the different switches being pressed-I sometimes thought I could hear a difference. But if there was a difference-it was certainly not enough to get excited about.

The "sound" of the subs just went away.

So today I did a little bit more playing. I let the upper end of the IHOP "go" without the subtractive eq etc applied. Then I BOOSTED the TH812 (did not play with the TH118) response to match.

While this helped a little bit-I did not like the sound-it sounded "pushed" and not the same-easy to pick out. I have my suspicions-but will not go into that now.

Now granted this was a quick couple of hour test-without a variety of different subs (types). But it did make it WAY harder (if not impossible) to say which one had the most "punch".

So my quick conclusion (thus far-more work to be done on this front-when I get time) is that the "apparent punch" is based on the increased level around and above 100hz.

Of course how well the sub plays with the full range cabinet depends on how well the alignment is done (phase response).

So one sub may appear to have more "punch" but in reality, it may just have a better alignment and or higher output above 100hz.



I welcome comments-but this was our finding in our limited time and product availability.
 
Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Ivan Beaver said:
So i matched the responses (subtractively) to the highest high pass and the lowest low pass the cabinets had naturally. Basically using eq and changing crossover slopes and rates.

Then we listened (of course the levels were matched). WOW they sounded very close now-but still a few differences. We used a single SH46 as the full range cabinet-high passed at 100hz.

So then I did a quick (not getting real precise) alignment to the Sh46. I put a long delay on the SH46 and adjusted the delay to each of the subs as needed to get close.

Now it got scary. I would really hate to have to choose which one had the most "punch". I was not doing the switching-and if I closed my eyes-I could not tell when the subs were changed.

The "sound" of the subs just went away.

So my quick conclusion (thus far-more work to be done on this front-when I get time) is that the "apparent punch" is based on the increased level around and above 100hz.

Of course how well the sub plays with the full range cabinet depends on how well the alignment is done (phase response).

So one sub may appear to have more "punch" but in reality, it may just have a better alignment and or higher output above 100hz.

I welcome comments-but this was our finding in our limited time and product availability.
Click to expand...
My experience agrees with what you say, similar to what I wrote about in post # 83.

Since the SH 46 phase change is smooth from about 280 Hz down to below 100 Hz, and the sub cabinets you used could all be put into alignment with simple EQ and time correction, all can be made to sound similarly punchy.
Proper phase coherency between the sub and top will eliminate comb filtering, thereby increasing level while reducing the power needed for that output, and allow both mains and sub to "punch" with one big hit in the crossover region instead of two slaps.

Getting a sub to play well with the tops can be a challenge if both the mains and sub are going through rapid and different phase changes at the crossover point.
Combine a bandpass sub with a ported top with the top tuning close to the BP phase change, and the results won't be pretty, though with enough buggering around you can get it to sound right in one place.

Is the IHOP a TH or a FLH?

How about an IHOP picture ;^)?
 
Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Art Welter said:
My experience agrees with what you say, similar to what I wrote about in post # 83.

Since the SH 46 phase change is smooth from about 280 Hz down to below 100 Hz, and the sub cabinets you used could all be put into alignment with simple EQ and time correction, all can be made to sound similarly punchy.
Proper phase coherency between the sub and top will eliminate comb filtering, thereby increasing level while reducing the power needed for that output, and allow both mains and sub to "punch" with one big hit in the crossover region instead of two slaps.

Getting a sub to play well with the tops can be a challenge if both the mains and sub are going through rapid and different phase changes at the crossover point.
Combine a bandpass sub with a ported top with the top tuning close to the BP phase change, and the results won't be pretty, though with enough buggering around you can get it to sound right in one place.

Is the IHOP a TH or a FLH?

How about an IHOP picture ;^)?
Click to expand...
It is a "folded horn" implemented a bit different.

Here is a link. The IHOP is in the middle-(you can see the bare wood of the rear panel). It is basically a square box with hole in the middle. The black spots are handles that will be removed in the regular version.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...32810095.96638.126113687424773&type=1&theater
 
Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Sounds like you guys had some fun after we left. That definitely would have been an interesting comparison. I find it interesting that you could get the sonic characteristics of the tapped horns and the FLH IHOP to match.

Ivan your observations seem inline with my comments earlier on the differences between the TH212 and 118. That the low extension of the Th118 may cover up the "punch" that is more apparent in the TH212. (Which I realize kind of contradicts my attempt at defining "punch" earlier. So it includes both a visceral and auditory experience, oh well :roll:.)
 
Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Jeff Babcock said:
I am interested to hear more details about impressions of the SM80....... anyone? Bueller?
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Jeff
I thought the SM80 sounded great, it had a hpf at 100hz (someone correct me if im wrong) and a little EQ, listening to the 80m with no processing (other than the hpf) i felt like something in the high mid (6kish) could have come down but that might just be my preference. However when used without the hpf it didnt get as low as some of the others.

If i could afford to i would trade in community sls 920s or eaw kf650s for a pair in a minute. (And i love the 920s)
 
Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Brandon Wright said:
Ivan your observations seem inline with my comments earlier on the differences between the TH212 and 118. That the low extension of the Th118 may cover up the "punch" that is more apparent in the TH212. (Which I realize kind of contradicts my attempt at defining "punch" earlier. So it includes both a visceral and auditory experience, oh well :roll:.)
Click to expand...
Perceptiveness can be a very hard thing to "understand".

Yes some freq tend to "cover up" (NOT eliminate) other "things".

Try this sometime. Take a triamped loudspeaker-it doesn't matter which one.

Get it sounding "good" to you- and turn it up to a "healthy" level. Not stupid loud-but "pretty loud" (whatever that means) but still comfortable.

Now mute the lows and mids. WHAT DO YOU DO? You stick your fingers in your ears-to stop the "pain" and harshness and you want to turn the level down.

But is it the LEVEL? Just a minute before-it was actually LOUDER-when the lows and mids were playing.

So it is not the level-but rather the BALANCE that is screwing with you and what you perceive. You would probably want to start to "eq" the harshness out-but it does not appear to be there when the system is balanced sonically.
 
Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

John Roberts said:
Thank you... Sounds logical.

JR
Click to expand...
People do sub demos all the time-and you hear-this sub is "punchier" than that one and so forth.

Yet NONE of the such demos that I have attended have made any attempt to actually sonically balance the subs-level and/or freq response wise.

It has just been "let them go".

Now this can be real good to compare sensitivities (like we did at the demo). And if they all use the same low pass filter-then the one with the most HF extension (meaning 100-200hzish) is going to sound "punchier". Yet when you PROPERLY align it in a system-that apparent punchy-ness will no longer be there-as based on our limited testing.

So is having this extra HF extension a bad thing? No.-think of it as "free sound", that you can either throw out of the sub-or not have the full range box have to extend down as low. So either one wins in the power heating game.

Years ago Tom Danley did an experiment and his company compared the servo drive subs with other normal subs-and the test was to play various recording of just a low drum-kick-floor tom-concert bass drum etc and see which cabinet sounded most like the way drum should sound.

No full range cabinets were used. In every case the servo drive cabinets lost. But not for any reason most would think. The question to the listeners was "which one sounds most like a bass drum?". Well the cabinets with the most distortion and HF extension had more of the overtones that exist in the real sound/recording.

HOWEVER-in the real world-we use other loudspeakers to reproduce the higher freq. So the cabinet with the lowest distortion will sound more like a real drum when used with a full range cabinet. The distortions will actually interfer with the freq from the full range cabinet-making it sound less natural.

The cabinets that have extra HF bass extension would have to be properly aligned with the full range cabinet.

So when you start to take all of this into account-you will quickly realize it can get to be a bit harder to honestly talk about punch-and how it REALLY relates to a properly designed/aligned/operated system.

Of course if the system is out of whack (as most sound systems are) then the individual cabinets can start to take control again.

And we go back to "it depends"------------------------------------------
 
Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Interesting Ivan, it reminded me of when the Basstech 7 evolved-it had better punch to me, and I think it was a couple of things. First, by that time we were starting to play with time alignment between the tops and subs, and second, the Basstech 7 had a nice round "bulge" in the upper end of it's operating range where some of the earlier models didn't(IIRC, it's been a while). So even after dialing in the settings(and we didn't use EQ in the shop system typically), there was probably still some extra output in the upper end of the subs and through the crossover region.

It was also interesting to note that even adding a little subwoofer to the shop system, levels most of us wouldn't consider "proper" for actual use, always smoothed out the overall sound, along with the added realism. Tom used to cite a paper by Ray Dolby about extended bandwidth and realism.

Best regards,

John
 
Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Ivan,

Don't want to jump in on your thread too much, but I can add my own feelings about subwoofer (and whole system) impact. I agree with you completely that subwoofers with rising response above 90Hz or so are perceived as having more "punch" even (especially?) if that response is equalized flat. The added sensitivity at these frequencies comes out as additional headroom, and you can hear that the sub is just loping along in that frequency range, even when you wouldn't expect it to be at a taxing output level. I am not surprised that when you equalized a rising response into a subwoofer that didn't have it naturally you found it unimpressive.

Aside from that, low phase shift through the entire system is a critical step, although this is more practical in your home than in an arena. Finally, extended LF response appears to be a Big Deal™ as well. Punch is more than just what you feel in your chest, it's an impression of how aggressive the PA is. As you of all people have surely experienced, having that extra even 5Hz at the bottom end makes a big difference. Exquisitely aligned systems with wide bandwidth and high output capabilities can be actually frightening.
 
Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Bennett Prescott said:
Aside from that, low phase shift through the entire system is a critical step, although this is more practical in your home than in an arena. Finally, extended LF response appears to be a Big Deal™ as well. Punch is more than just what you feel in your chest, it's an impression of how aggressive the PA is. As you of all people have surely experienced, having that extra even 5Hz at the bottom end makes a big difference. Exquisitely aligned systems with wide bandwidth and high output capabilities can be actually frightening.
Click to expand...
True. I must admit that I used to be in the "there is no reason to go below 40hz" crowd. Until I started playing with some of Toms products.

Having the extra effortless extension really adds to the experience-even if the fundamentals of the music don't go that low. It really fills it out. And if the loudspeaker can go lower, then it is not working as hard-and if it isn't working as hard-there is less distortion.

You hear music in a whole new way. The "nay sayers" are either very closed minded or more likely-they have never heard a system that can do it EASILY.

Sure you can simply add some eq boost down low to make the loudspeaker "appear" to go lower-at least to a simple amplitude freq response graph. But like adding the boost up high-it is NOT the same thing with the same sonic result.

But that boost quickly gets eaten up in available headroom and excursion limits. They "forget" to mention that in the spec sheet-but it DOES happen.
 
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