Help a club pick a console to replace an aging Crest VX.

[David Karol]

Re: Help a club pick a console to replace an aging Crest VX.

Have you tried one yourself?

Whether or not it increases/decreases clock errors, I find it does add a positive audible difference in sound.

Will it make it sound like an XL4? No way, not even close! But it does change the sound.

BRad

The clock is only a square wave at some frequency, generally produced by an oscillator. Figure that frequency will commonly be 48kHz or 96kHz, with a 50% duty cycle.

The data signal will usually get 'clocked in' during on an edge of the clock signal. With a poor clock signal, you may see jitter, long rise/fall times, large over/undershoots on the signal, stuff like that.

When adding an external clock, you're adding cable length, more chance of connection failure, etc. There's other problems such as a skew between the data/clock signals, all that can, IMO, be worsened with the use of an external clock.

 

[Mike Brown]

Re: Help a club pick a console to replace an aging Crest VX.

Have you tried one yourself?

Whether or not it increases/decreases clock errors, I find it does add a positive audible difference in sound.

Will it make it sound like an XL4? No way, not even close! But it does change the sound.

BRad

Hi Brad,

I actually have tried this with the LS9 and the M7Cl after some debates at a company I used to work for. There were several people who heard differences and several people who didn't. We set up a relatively scientific ABX test and suddenly the people who heard differences before could not reliably hear them again.

Amusingly, in one case, tapping HA button of an unused channel on the touch screen of the M7CL 4 times seemed to have a profound effect on the sound of the console in one testee's mind. ~:-D~:grin:

There is plenty of documentation on why/how external clocks will not (best case) or negatively (worst case) influence the sound of a converter.... but try setting up a test yourself and have a trusty assistant swapping the settings without you knowing.

At the end of the day its your rig and you have the right to set it up however you please... so if you hear a positive difference then more power to you!

The clock is only a square wave at some frequency, generally produced by an oscillator. Figure that frequency will commonly be 48kHz or 96kHz, with a 50% duty cycle.

The data signal will usually get 'clocked in' during on an edge of the clock signal. With a poor clock signal, you may see jitter, long rise/fall times, large over/undershoots on the signal, stuff like that.

When adding an external clock, you're adding cable length, more chance of connection failure, etc. There's other problems such as a skew between the data/clock signals, all that can, IMO, be worsened with the use of an external clock.

If anyone would like more information check out writings by:

Nika Aldrich (his book Digital Audio Explained is great).

Bob Katz (his book on mastering is also fantastic in its explanations of digital audio)

And the legendary converter designer Dan Lavry (lots of excellent white papers on his website).


Sorry to be a serial thread disruptor. :blush:

 

[Klaus Mock]

Re: Help a club pick a console to replace an aging Crest VX.

It sounds like nuts and bolts in a blender? Itty-bitty, hard to read screen? Too many button pushes to get where you need to go?
Lack of a usable manual (every Yamaha console ever made..........)!????

IMHO is the sound of the desk the least problem in a live situation. The environment, the sound systems, the band or a the engineer has far more influence to the result than the converters or DSPs of the desk.
The rest hmmm makes it maybe harder to work with, but I, who worked with this desk for six years, managed it so far.
Just my opinion.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Help a club pick a console to replace an aging Crest VX.

IMHO is the sound of the desk the least problem in a live situation. The environment, the sound systems, the band or a the engineer has far more influence to the result than the converters or DSPs of the desk.
The rest hmmm makes it maybe harder to work with, but I, who worked with this desk for six years, managed it so far.
Just my opinion.

The reply you quoted was a direct answer to a question regarding the OP stating "no LS9". As to the environment, yes......but the question was about consoles, not environments.

 

[Frederik Rosenkjær]

Re: Help a club pick a console to replace an aging Crest VX.

I feel sorry for those who can't make an LS9 sound good. I can make it sound awesome. :razz:

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Help a club pick a console to replace an aging Crest VX.

I feel sorry for those who can't make an LS9 sound good. I can make it sound awesome. :razz:

With an awful lot more work than most other mixers.........

The channel summing to get a mix just is not as intuitive as I would like. With good analog mixers it's always a breeze. With Decent digital consoles it's not so bad. With the LS9 it's always a battle trying to get the channels to combine in a pleasing way. It always feels like the channels are fighting each other rather than working together. I suppose if I used one constantly I'd get used to it. But it's not my favorite fight to fight if I've got any choice at all.

 

[Jason Misterka]

Re: Help a club pick a console to replace an aging Crest VX.

I feel sorry for those who can't make an LS9 sound good. I can make it sound awesome. :razz:

+1

When we first bought an LS9, I couldn't make it sound good the first two or three times I used it. (I thought our M7 sounded fine, we owned two of those for a few years already.)

Somehow, it started sounding good after I got used to using it.

Some may say I started accepting bad sound, but I don't think so. I think I started learning where to turn the knobs to make it sound like I wanted it. It takes a few gigs to get there on any desk, maybe a few more than normal on the LS9. Nothing sounds good if you are uncomfortable.

Dick, honest question, not being snarky (if that's how you spell it,) but have you spent any real time on one?

I understand entirely why a touring engineer would not want one for certain situations, especially if they haven't spent time on them.

But a lot of the younger guys we run into now have used them a bunch of times in clubs, etc, and are plenty savvy mixing on one.

Anyway, dead topic, meet your horse whip. I got a Pro 1 to sell now, and it has a huge screen

Jason

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Help a club pick a console to replace an aging Crest VX.

+1

When we first bought an LS9, I couldn't make it sound good the first two or three times I used it. (I thought our M7 sounded fine, we owned two of those for a few years already.)

Somehow, it started sounding good after I got used to using it.


Dick, honest question, not being snarky (if that's how you spell it,) but have you spent any real time on one?

As I said in my post above, it's not impossible to get used to. If you use one all the time it gets easier. I bought one, used it for a couple of weeks and took it back. I borrowed another one, kept it for a couple of months and returned it to the owner.

I just don't like equipment of any kind that requires me to compensate for the idiosyncracies to do the job. I want a console that does sound with the same techniques as any other console. Making allowances for the differences in the LS9's way of combining things into a mix is just not what I want to have to remember.

I use one set of headphones. I'm used to the way they sound, so I automatically compensate for their response. I do not use one console, so I prefer to use ones that work in a similar fashion. The LS9 is outside of those parameters.

 

[Dave Barnett]

Re: Help a club pick a console to replace an aging Crest VX.

With an awful lot more work than most other mixers.........

The channel summing to get a mix just is not as intuitive as I would like. With good analog mixers it's always a breeze. With Decent digital consoles it's not so bad. With the LS9 it's always a battle trying to get the channels to combine in a pleasing way. It always feels like the channels are fighting each other rather than working together. I suppose if I used one constantly I'd get used to it. But it's not my favorite fight to fight if I've got any choice at all.

What sort of level were you running the input trims? What was your "0dB"?

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Help a club pick a console to replace an aging Crest VX.

What sort of level were you running the input trims? What was your "0dB"?

-20 to -30 dBfs

It's the summing that drives me nuts.

Look......all you guys who like them......that's fine with me. I was simply answering a question asking exactly why some of us DON'T like the desk. We're not required to like or dislike anything just because it happens to have uses in certain situations. The OP clearly stated "LS9's suck". I happen to agree with the OP. Someone asked why. I offered an opinion based on my experience.

If you're going to require me to say I'm wrong, you better not hold your breath. Mark me down on the side of the ledger that says they suck. LS9 users are fine, upstanding folks. I just don't like the product.

 

[Scott Helmke]

Re: Help a club pick a console to replace an aging Crest VX.

As somebody who has always done fine with the LS9, but had a very difficult time getting the Midas Venice EQ to do anything useful, I'd say it's entirely possible that some people won't like the LS9.

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: Help a club pick a console to replace an aging Crest VX.

It's really a shame that most of the big name manufacturers have discontinued their large analog desks. I know that the market is now flooded with great used desks at affordable prices, but they will eventually wear out. I've had very little experience with digital consoles, but some of the most respected engineers in my area by and large prefer analog. I know they are heavier and require outboard, but they do work flawlessly 99.9% of the time and sound excellent!

 

[Mick Berg]

Re: Help a club pick a console to replace an aging Crest VX.

The channel summing to get a mix just is not as intuitive as I would like. With good analog mixers it's always a breeze. With Decent digital consoles it's not so bad. With the LS9 it's always a battle trying to get the channels to combine in a pleasing way. It always feels like the channels are fighting each other rather than working together.

I'm not saying you are wrong or anything like that, but this is a concept that I just cannot understand. I have never been aware of channels "not combining in a pleasing way" on any mixing console. It's just something I took for granted, as long as you don't overload the summing amp (or whatever it is in a digital mixer.) I'd like to hear more about it.

Mick Berg.