High output subwoofers.

[Marjan Milosevic]

Re: High output subwoofers.

Those S28 subs are very ineficient. 96db for a double 18 inch is not a good figure. Next time stay on the 80hz xover but bring the VTX25 down to 50-60Hz. That can help a lot.

 

[Art Welter]

Re: High output subwoofers.

When you're looking for massive punch, the sub/top alignment becomes very important as the "punch" range is usually right on top of your crossover point.

The "punch" frequency range is where the M421 isobaric tapped horn is at it's worst regarding frequency and likely phase response.

 

[Jay Barracato]

Those S28 subs are very ineficient. 96db for a double 18 inch is not a good figure. Next time stay on the 80hz xover but bring the VTX25 down to 50-60Hz. That can help a lot.

Marjan,

I understand why your view might be a little biased, but aren't there some good boxes of European manufacture that we don't see here in the States?

I wonder that both of the leading candidates are of US manufacturing and scarce in Europe.

 

[Rob Spence]

I fully understand if you think this is crazy, because it is. But the customer asked for a solution and he's willing to pay for it. So I thought I'd look into it and give him some options.

This thread shows what the challenge is....
http://soundforums.net/basement/7133-loud-enough.html

You certainly have the most interesting customers just like Mac has some of the most interesting gigs.



Sent from my iPad HD

 

[Marjan Milosevic]

Re: High output subwoofers.

Marjan,

I understand why your view might be a little biased, but aren't there some good boxes of European manufacture that we don't see here in the States?

I wonder that both of the leading candidates are of US manufacturing and scarce in Europe.

Ye there are some very nice products indeed.

PS-9 active Sub: Fohhn Audio AG.

Professional Loudspeaker Systems. Martin Audio Ltd.

MLA? Multi-cellular Loudspeaker Array. Martin Audio Ltd.

TFS-900B Subwoofer : Turbosound

Sub

And so on...

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: High output subwoofers.

What about d&b J-infra ? They sound pretty usefull from what I have heard (and felt), also some of the Nexo stuff sure seems to be right up there in the punchyness department. RCF has got a new one that is supposed to be awesome according to their own press.
d&b and Nexo should be quite available in Europe and maybe even here in Norway.
If there is a limit to the number of subs, and this market is attractive, one might even consider the possibility that building a specialized set of subs is an option ~:-D~:grin:

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: High output subwoofers.

I don't think there are 12 subs in Norway that would go as loud as 6 TH812. At least not if you sum up their stated SPL numbers

6 TH812 + 6 other subs makes for a total of 12. The client insist on 12. It's a possible solution, but we'll se where this turns. I got a couple of offers on hand that needs testing.

If you use other subs-be sure to short out the inputs-so they don't cause notches in the response of the TH812's.

Size can be an issue-If you use 6 TH812 and put them in 2 groups (on either side of the stage-e ea) you are looking at 15' wide and 5' tall. Or 5' wide and 15' tall.

You would be looking at output of 155dB continuous-161 peak per side.

If you were to use 6 per side-then the stack would be 15' wide and 10' tall (per side) and around 161dB continuous 167dB peak per side.

OF course you would not measure those levels up close-because of the distance from the cabinets-but say at 10M and if you "back calculated" 20dB (for 10M loss) that would give you an idea.

The most I have ever used is 4 TH812-and it is "not a normal experience" at all.

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: High output subwoofers.

If you use other subs-be sure to short out the inputs-so they don't cause notches in the response of the TH812's.

Size can be an issue-If you use 6 TH812 and put them in 2 groups (on either side of the stage-e ea) you are looking at 15' wide and 5' tall. Or 5' wide and 15' tall.

You would be looking at output of 155dB continuous-161 peak per side.

If you were to use 6 per side-then the stack would be 15' wide and 10' tall (per side) and around 161dB continuous 167dB peak per side.

OF course you would not measure those levels up close-because of the distance from the cabinets-but say at 10M and if you "back calculated" 20dB (for 10M loss) that would give you an idea.

The most I have ever used is 4 TH812-and it is "not a normal experience" at all.

Which puts my ideal listening position about 512 meters away.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: High output subwoofers.

Which puts my ideal listening position about 512 meters away.

I would like to listen a lot closer than that... just for fun.

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: High output subwoofers.

I would like to listen a lot closer than that... just for fun.

Remember the "FUN" of firing up the McCauley's in that timber framed room in MA? I have never seen so many techs running away from a box with their hands clamped over their ears before or since. I believe I heard louder things while in the Army, but not by much.

But for the record, I really liked the sound (and feel) of the ADR JD21's.

 

[John Halliburton]

Re: High output subwoofers.

I would like to listen a lot closer than that... just for fun.

We once fired up twelve Basstech 7 subs in the shop one day, then pretended we were at the ballpark blasting Queen's "We Will Rock You"(and other test tracks), and playing with a DBX 120A. It was impressive.

We should have pitched the set up to the Cubs organization, perhaps they would have won a Series by now....nah. ;>)

Best regards

John

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: High output subwoofers.

But for the record, I really liked the sound (and feel) of the ADR JD21's.

What has become of ADR? The web site is now just a place holder.

 

[Craig Hauber]

Re: High output subwoofers.

I actually think that 12" drivers is a good idea for another reason, namely impact. These guys like to feel the impact more than extreme low frequency extension.

Transient "impact" also involves your mid/high system and really good alignment between it and your subs. Study the spectral content of a hard-hitting transient that you like the "feel" of and you'll see it involves content above your sub's upper crossover point.
If you are getting those frequencies out of your subs by themselves then it is distortion.

So in simpler terms, what mid/high system are you using?

 

[Helge A. Bentsen]

Re: High output subwoofers.

transient "impact" also involves your mid/high system and really good alignment between it and your subs. Study the spectral content of a hard-hitting transient that you like the "feel" of and you'll see it involves content above your sub's upper crossover point.
If you are getting those frequencies out of your subs by themselves then it is distortion.

So in simpler terms, what mid/high system are you using?

20 jbl vtx v25.

 

[Craig Hauber]

Re: High output subwoofers.

20 jbl vtx v25.

I'm not familiar with that rig, but if it is like the Vdosc I used to use then I would do a vertical column of 6 subs (The G28 model) with the 10-box line flown immediately above. Get as much LF as you can out of the 15's in the v25's then add in an overlap of the subs in the "kick" range.
L-Acoustics had presets for this with the Vdosc and it's what we would do when we had those balls-to-the-wall max output jobs. (The vertical column of subs outperformed just lining them up as we discovered by trial-and-error several times

I did find that mixing different vendors from mid/highs to subs never really worked out as smoothly as "staying in the family" Even with the limitations of the old SB-218's -we just ended up using way more of them. Luckily for us truck-space was never a concern.

Of course you could hide some s28's in the flown lines too and say they are mid-highs to satisfy your mysterious 12-sub limitation.

 

[drew gandy]

Re: High output subwoofers.

Seriously now, how much would it cost to ship the matterhorn? (It's a shipping container for crying out loud.) Your customer is looking for an "experience" and the matterhorn is a one of a kind.

 

[Mark DeArman]

Re: High output subwoofers.

The "punch" frequency range is where the M421 isobaric tapped horn is at it's worst regarding frequency and likely phase response.

The M421 is not designed to provide punch. If you think that it is, then I'm confused. As far as that image of the response, than I'd have to disagree. The microphone used or the processing might be an issue.

I'm pretty sure the responses I posted are around on this site somewhere.
http://soundforums.net/varsity/3860-need-subs-will-do-20hz-40hz.html#post26858

 

[Evan Kirkendall]

Re: High output subwoofers.

You can't buy it, but the Clair i5/BT218 combo is pretty damn hard to beat.


The McCauley sub sounds like garbage. The d&b J-infra would be my 2nd pick.





Evan

 

[Helge A. Bentsen]

Re: High output subwoofers.

I'm not familiar with that rig, but if it is like the Vdosc I used to use then I would do a vertical column of 6 subs (The G28 model) with the 10-box line flown immediately above. Get as much LF as you can out of the 15's in the v25's then add in an overlap of the subs in the "kick" range.
L-Acoustics had presets for this with the Vdosc and it's what we would do when we had those balls-to-the-wall max output jobs. (The vertical column of subs outperformed just lining them up as we discovered by trial-and-error several times

JBL has a preset for this as well. I tried it, it gave me more output, but the LF coverage was all over the place. Seems like some of the K1-systems present do this, they have more output, but coverage is an issue for some of them.

Of course you could hide some s28's in the flown lines too and say they are mid-highs to satisfy your mysterious 12-sub limitation.

Already considered that But I have a limitation of 20 tops and 12 subs.

But in the interest of science, I took the V-racks out of high performance mode and put them into normal performance for the subs. That actually improved a bit on the issue, it seems like JBL limits the subs earlier in high performance mode. That got the output level back to somewhere close to a overlapping crossover without the same coverage issues. I'll have to make a controlled test of this later when I have the time for it.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: High output subwoofers.

I did find that mixing different vendors from mid/highs to subs never really worked out as smoothly as "staying in the family" Even with the limitations of the old SB-218's -we just ended up using way more of them. Luckily for us truck-space was never a concern.

Of course you could hide some s28's in the flown lines too and say they are mid-highs to satisfy your mysterious 12-sub limitation.

I would REALLY love to see or hear how a manufacturer actually "designs" a sub to work with their full range products-besides a physical (stacking or flying) aspect.

The only issue would be whether the user just wants to use "presets" or if they have the knowledge/skill to actually do an alignment.

It is an excuse I hear all the time-but I am not aware of any actual evidence to support it.

As far as I am concerned-use full range cabinets to do what they need to and subs to do what they need to-and just make sure you have enough overlap between them to work with. Without an overlap-you can start to run into issues. You can easily "throw things away-but if puts strains on gear to "add it in".