Martin MLA pricing?

[Helge A. Bentsen]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

I disagree! cheap line arrays are killing this industry

I said nothing about cheap. What I was talking about was pricing one's product out of the market.It doesn't cost $25,000 to build a box. The high price is partly to recoup R&D expenses.

So you can recoup your expenses 2 ways.Sell a few at $25,000 or alot at $10,000.One more thing. I have heard some ''cheap'' line arrays sound great in the right hands. And some very expensive ones sound terrible in the wrong hands.

The price I quoted was the break-down cost of a complete package, including cables, power distro, system network bridge and two computers. The box is self-power, so I think the price is quite reasonable.

I also suspect that I would pay more per box over here than you, because I live in a very expensive part of the world. A Meyer Milo is close to $22K here, I think that's a bit mote than in the US

 

[Helge A. Bentsen]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

Helge,



I assume you are talking about this: http://www.duran-audio.com/index.php?page=target-system&hl=en_US



For those of you who don't know, Duran Audio makes the Intellivox, which is a great product. I think that's what's in Grand Central Station, talk about a difficult acoustic environment.

I think so, never heard it myself. A friend of mine attended a demo last year, he was verry impressed. He said it was pretty close to MLA performance after hearing the MLA, but not as ''touring-friendly''.



Me thinks Martin is the new benchmark for system performance

 

[Randy Gartner]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

I think Martin is aiming for a specific market. Perhaps not the one you are in.

You're certainly right about that!

 

[Randy Frierson]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

I have pricing but they prefer not to put it out there..MLA is a complete system concept..I will say i always thought MILO was exspensive but this is much more..The sub is about the same price as the top.....

 

[Randy Frierson]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

KILLING.....There is allot of gear that is killing the industry also like cheap digital consoles that will do 48 inputs and 16 outputs...Problem is we all want it...What sucks is that the job is so cool its now within the reach of hobbyists..I hope that venues, buyers will start asking for gen liability policies, proof of workers comp and a business liscense....that would help

 

[RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

I hope that venues, buyers will start asking for gen liability policies, proof of workers comp and a business liscense....that would help

If this ever happens those of us that do it right will have so much work we won't know what to do! For us little guys, like my self that do it right we compete so much with others that just refuse to! I charge sales tax on rentals because it is the law here. Very few people that I compete directly with have a business license and charge the tax that they are legally obligated to!

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

I hope that venues, buyers will start asking for gen liability policies, proof of workers comp and a business liscense....that would help

If this ever happens those of us that do it right will have so much work we won't know what to do! For us little guys, like my self that do it right we compete so much with others that just refuse to! I charge sales tax on rentals because it is the law here. Very few people that I compete directly with have a business license and charge the tax that they are legally obligated to!

Then turn them in. In Kansas we can directly contact the State & County government taxing authorities, the labor dept, etc if we think someone isn't paying their due. With current revenues down, I hear it's effective...

Have fun, good luck.



Tim Mc

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

I hope that venues, buyers will start asking for gen liability policies, proof of workers comp and a business liscense....that would help

If this ever happens those of us that do it right will have so much work we won't know what to do! For us little guys, like my self that do it right we compete so much with others that just refuse to! I charge sales tax on rentals because it is the law here. Very few people that I compete directly with have a business license and charge the tax that they are legally obligated to!

Then turn them in. In Kansas we can directly contact the State & County government taxing authorities, the labor dept, etc if we think someone isn't paying their due. With current revenues down, I hear it's effective...

Have fun, good luck.



Tim Mc

But if you are not a legal business then you cannot legally collect sales tax.



It is generally considered a ''hobby''.



Now on the Federal level (IRS) and state income tax, that is a different issue.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

I hope that venues, buyers will start asking for gen liability policies, proof of workers comp and a business liscense....that would help

If this ever happens those of us that do it right will have so much work we won't know what to do! For us little guys, like my self that do it right we compete so much with others that just refuse to! I charge sales tax on rentals because it is the law here. Very few people that I compete directly with have a business license and charge the tax that they are legally obligated to!

Then turn them in. In Kansas we can directly contact the State & County government taxing authorities, the labor dept, etc if we think someone isn't paying their due. With current revenues down, I hear it's effective...

Have fun, good luck.



Tim Mc

But if you are not a legal business then you cannot legally collect sales tax.



It is generally considered a ''hobby''.



Now on the Federal level (IRS) and state income tax, that is a different issue.

''Hobbies'' don't usually involve providing technical services or equipment for pay. Registered business or not, a state or local government will go after commercial operations that fail to report & pay sales/use taxes. The operator would also be required to register his business and ''get legal'' to stay in operation.



Some states and localities require payment of personal property taxes on assets, too. Even hobbyists, although it may be at a different rate.



The current fiscal situation has departments of revenue looking for every penny. They'll investigate a report that sounds reasonable (and some that aren't). Trust me.



Have fun, good luck.



Tim Mc

 

[David Karol]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

I disagree! cheap line arrays are killing this industry

Where is the ''Like'' button?

It's coming Tuesday! We tried doing more Facebook integration with FUD, but it ended up becoming an annoyance. It's all built in to vBulletin though!

 

[Evan Kirkendall]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

I disagree! cheap line arrays are killing this industry

Where is the ''Like'' button?

It's coming Tuesday! We tried doing more Facebook integration with FUD, but it ended up becoming an annoyance. It's all built in to vBulletin though!

But the real question is... Does it come with a DISKLIKE button????

And, is the

icon sticking around?





Evan

 

[David Karol]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

But the real question is... Does it come with a DISKLIKE button????

And, is the

icon sticking around?





Evan

Not until Facebook makes one, but all of the similes will transfer over!

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

Not until Facebook makes one, but all of the similes will transfer over!

Your grammar functions like a dog in a boat!

 

[John Norris]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

And the metaphors are also sailing to the new haven.

 

[Stuart Høgg]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

Your grammar functions like a dog in a boat!

What we need is a ''like'' button for making similes.

 

[Christian Tepfer]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

KILLING.....There is allot of gear that is killing the industry also like cheap digital consoles that will do 48 inputs and 16 outputs...Problem is we all want it...What sucks is that the job is so cool its now within the reach of hobbyists..I hope that venues, buyers will start asking for gen liability policies, proof of workers comp and a business liscense....that would help

I don't see any gear ''killing'' the industry.

The only one who can kill our industry is ourselves. There are a lot examples where crew or companies jump into jobs for less money than they are worth.

I don't have a problem with cheap crew and companies but with cheap and good working crew and companies.



I agree that hobbyists have a lot more choices when it comes to gear and they are really using their choices. Why not? I can remember bands with PAs doing audio jobs on the market, later some rental companies raised from that business. Most companies are considered medium to top runners on the market now and they play against the new cheap competition.



The medium format digital desks (from 32 inputs) are lightweight, affordable and capable compared to medium format analog gear. So, what does that tell us? A FOH console is still a tool, the value is zero when nobody is using the console in a good way. So even more it's in the hand of the crew to proof their value. I, personally, don't need high priced gear to show my worth, it just has to do the job. As an example, a good mixing engineer can easily out-perform a hobbyist on a low-priced console. If not he has to change the industry and sell insurances or whatever. The same logic applies to rental companies, when the jobs are going well clients are more likely to pay the asked for price. Otherwise they can rely on hobbyists.



It's up to us, let's raise the quality bar, educate ourselves even further, always think of creative solutions, keep up good work ethics. When we do this nobody can kill our industry.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

I don't see any gear ''killing'' the industry.

The only one who can kill our industry is ourselves.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

[Christian Tepfer]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

I don't see any gear ''killing'' the industry.

The only one who can kill our industry is ourselves.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Or don't play the game.



Or look at the lighting and video departments. There was and is a lot happening gear-wise. I remember the first cheap (sub 100k$) LCD panel projectors, compared to the 6 valve technology that required a lot of care from the operators and was bulky in order to get some brightness.

Did they lose budgets because of that? I don't think so, clients love what they can do now.



We can do seamless changeovers now, theretically.

I just see them rarely, I don't know why, actually.



I personally think the audio departments still have no idea, what they can really do with all that new technology.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

I don't see any gear ''killing'' the industry.

The only one who can kill our industry is ourselves.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Or don't play the game.



Or look at the lighting and video departments. There was and is a lot happening gear-wise. I remember the first cheap (sub 100k$) LCD panel projectors, compared to the 6 valve technology that required a lot of care from the operators and was bulky in order to get some brightness.

Did they lose budgets because of that? I don't think so, clients love what they can do now.



We can do seamless changeovers now, theretically.

I just see them rarely, I don't know why, actually.



I personally think the audio departments still have no idea, what they can really do with all that new technology.

The limiting factor on ''seamless changeovers'' is fear. Fear that something won't work, fear that the band/boss/CEO will get mad and fire people when something doesn't work... and the result is that we do things the way we've always done them, the ways that have proven to be most reliable. The rest of the delay is ego

As for implementing new technologies, I have to ask ''which ones'' and for what uses? There are lots of digital things that can make our lives better/faster/cheaper, but there has to be a payback for the investment. For new audio providers without ''legacy'' technologies to support, ''new'' technologies are very appealing. The reality check occurs when they have to interface with the existing world of audio. For the install world things are a little more insulated, but the need for speedy accommodation of changes in related (video, data) technologies is important.



I'm with you, Christian, we can/could do lots of things. Customers need to be willing to pay for them, though.



Standards that live longer than a pet rodent are needed, too. There have been a hand full of ''digital network audio'' standards over the last 20 years. Maybe 2 hand fulls. Which ones are in widespread use or have become a de facto standard? Even trying to get a uniform definition of digital filters for loudspeaker DSP seems a Quixotic task. The need for certain types of uniformity has yet to create uniformity.



It's certainly an exciting time to be in audio, though. The new stuff is what keeps me interested as I mature faster than the industry

Have fun, good luck.



Tim Mc

 

[Christian Tepfer]

Re: Martin MLA pricing?

I don't see any gear ''killing'' the industry.

The only one who can kill our industry is ourselves.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Or don't play the game.



Or look at the lighting and video departments. There was and is a lot happening gear-wise. I remember the first cheap (sub 100k$) LCD panel projectors, compared to the 6 valve technology that required a lot of care from the operators and was bulky in order to get some brightness.

Did they lose budgets because of that? I don't think so, clients love what they can do now.



We can do seamless changeovers now, theretically.

I just see them rarely, I don't know why, actually.



I personally think the audio departments still have no idea, what they can really do with all that new technology.

The limiting factor on ''seamless changeovers'' is fear. Fear that something won't work, fear that the band/boss/CEO will get mad and fire people when something doesn't work... and the result is that we do things the way we've always done them, the ways that have proven to be most reliable. The rest of the delay is ego

Ego, that's a good point. On one festival we had the idea to make T-Shirts that say ''Aren't we all a bit headliner?''.



There are seamless changeovers, most of them I've done on good old analog equipment, split stage.

The last try on digital desks failed due to bad logistics.

As for implementing new technologies, I have to ask ''which ones'' and for what uses? There are lots of digital things that can make our lives better/faster/cheaper, but there has to be a payback for the investment. For new audio providers without ''legacy'' technologies to support, ''new'' technologies are very appealing. The reality check occurs when they have to interface with the existing world of audio. For the install world things are a little more insulated, but the need for speedy accommodation of changes in related (video, data) technologies is important.





I'm with you, Christian, we can/could do lots of things. Customers need to be willing to pay for them, though.



Standards that live longer than a pet rodent are needed, too. There have been a hand full of ''digital network audio'' standards over the last 20 years. Maybe 2 hand fulls. Which ones are in widespread use or have become a de facto standard? Even trying to get a uniform definition of digital filters for loudspeaker DSP seems a Quixotic task. The need for certain types of uniformity has yet to create uniformity.



It's certainly an exciting time to be in audio, though. The new stuff is what keeps me interested as I mature faster than the industry

Have fun, good luck.



Tim Mc

Digital filters are as variant as analog filters used to be. At least on the consoles. I remember my old Mitec EX desk, where every channel had sort of different behaviour. Reminded me to mix with my ears and never look on the readings.

The good thing is, we are capable of confirming DSP EQ behaviour now and we should, in order to confirm that we do exactly what we intend to do in the system EQ.



Audio networks are another interesting tool in order to use massive output channel count, compared with what we did in analog systems. We can drive a lot of speakers seperately to get exactly what we want. This is easy now, with whatever digital transport protocol compared to a lot of copper.



To span back to the MLA system, it may be a tool to get more consistent audio in the venue. Somebody has to sell that idea to the client, as it's going to cost them more money.



I personally don't think that the end user doesn't care, although it may seem so from time to time.