New Midas M32 Console

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Samuel Rees said:
Everyone was SO worried about how the preamps in the X32 would sound, but now that Midas Heritage / XL4 preamps are available in a $5000 desk no one cares about preamps anymore.
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Very Interesting. Behringer owns Midas. Now they can name any Preamp a Midas Preamp. This is totally legal. The H3000 and XL4 preamps already were different between each other.
I dont think the future will bring Riders saying something like this
FOH CONSOLE:
Please provide Digico SD10, Midas Pro2, Soundcraft VI4 or Midas M32....
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I saw the mixer at Tradeshow and to me it is a X32 with long faders. Midas pro fader, what is that? Midas uses Penny & Giles or not?
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Dirk Martens said:
Very Interesting. Behringer owns Midas. Now they can name any Preamp a Midas Preamp. This is totally legal. The H3000 and XL4 preamps already were different between each other.
I dont think the future will bring Riders saying something like this

I saw the mixer at Tradeshow and to me it is a X32 with long faders. Midas pro fader, what is that? Midas uses Penny & Giles or not?
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The brochure says that it has the same preamp as the XL4, heritage, and Midas Pro. The Midas pro fader is described as the same faders as in the pro series, and as being rated for 1million cycles MTBF. Their words, not mine.

I never said it was going to be alongside Digico on high end riders, so I choose not to respond to that. I defend that people around here only want to say that preamps and converters matter when it supports what they want to say - so in this case where it "looks" like an X32, now suddenly you and everyone you know doesn't care anymore. Not to mention the irony of describing a mixer by what it looks like.....

Faders, preamps, and converters either matter or they don't. And "there could be a preamp conspiracy..." is not a good answer. Sorry to be short, but there is some real %*#]%^*% getting thrown around here on this topic IMHO.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

I think it all quite simple..the M32 is aimed at people who want a reasonable priced digital console with the functionality of the x32 But with Midas "quality" re (some) components and build and also do not want the B name tag.

What I think is a shame is that they (like the x32) built in local i/o rather than just having it work with the d16's ( or whatever the S16 equivalent will be called) which for many will be the standard configuration.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Tim Padrick said:
I don't remember Behringer ever saying Midas Preamps, but rather Midas Designed Preamps. Anyone who assumed that those two descriptions meant the same thing has no place to complain.
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You speak the truth, however Behringer sold A LOT of x32s because every small time local production provider bought one because they have "A Midas." It's only fair to the production companies because Behringer pimps it as such.

The Behringer ADA 8000 adat pre/converter has Midas logos on every channel. 8 Midas logos on an 8 channel bargain basement unit.

I'll say it again: Mr Behringer is ruining the good Midas name because of his companies actions. I think the same thing will happen with Turbosound in the coming years. KT hasn't had any new standalone products in the last couple of years, but I'd think that brand is losing all value as well.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Tim Padrick said:
I don't remember Behringer ever saying Midas Preamps, but rather Midas Designed Preamps. Anyone who assumed that those two descriptions meant the same thing has no place to complain.
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Lee Williams said:
You speak the truth, however Behringer sold A LOT of x32s because every small time local production provider bought one because they have "A Midas." It's only fair to the production companies because Behringer pimps it as such.
.
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Does he speak the truth or does he not? If someone doesn't pay attention to the available information about who made the preamps that's hardly Behringer's fault, and if they do have design input from Midas why shouldn't they tell people about that?


Dirk Martens said:
Well then of course it must be true:)~:-)~:smile:.
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I haven't read the brochure but if it literally says "The M32 has the same preamps as the PRO series consoles" it probably does. It wouldn't look good if they claimed that and then when someone inevitably open them both up they turned out to be different. As long as it does say that and not something like "same quality as PRO series".

Chris
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Samuel Rees said:
The brochure says that it has the same preamp as the XL4, heritage, and Midas Pro. The Midas pro fader is described as the same faders as in the pro series, and as being rated for 1million cycles MTBF. Their words, not mine.

--clop--

Faders, preamps, and converters either matter or they don't. And "there could be a preamp conspiracy..." is not a good answer. Sorry to be short, but there is some real %*#]%^*% getting thrown around here on this topic IMHO.
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Perhaps 30 years ago there were significant performance differences between premium mic preamps and lower end badges, but for a couple decades now any difference has narrowed. I blame Mackie for perpetuating the mythology that there are significantly better sounding preamps, they even bragged about how much money they spent on theirs (not about any objective improvement for obvious reasons).

Nowadays most mic preamps, especially if digitally controlled, are using an IC chip set from either TI or THAT corp.

Faders in a digital console do not actually pass audio so do not contribute to sound quality directly. The motorized fader does add a degree of complexity and cost. Fader feel does affect the perception of premium in console land.

JR

PS: I wrote an article about performance limits of console design back in 1980. The transformer-less mic preamps (like Paul Buff's Transamp) were relatively new back then but right up there with today's preamp performance... The major difference since then is that now we can buy an off the shelf IC and back then we had to actually know what we were doing.
 
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Re: New Midas M32 Console

Helge Dr. Bentsen said:
No.



No.

It's a POS. Sorry to break your illusions :)
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I don't have illusions, please compare apples to apples! Name any other desk in that price range (below $3K in USA) with identical set of features that DOES sounds better? NONE! Nearest contenders, the Expression 3 and Qu-16/24 doesn't even come close!

Besides, on a typical X32 gig (one-off in a crowded club with badly-tuned PA) no one would ever notice the difference in desks (assuming the engineer knows what he's doing, many don't), there are sooooo many other factors involved!

I'm happy that my X32 paid for itself only after a few gigs and I don't have to worry about recouping my $15K-$30K investment in Yamaha, Pro-2 or DiGiCo
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

I am more inclined to take Al Walker's word than pay attention to deliberate attempts to smear Midas (et al). Companies unbundle, merge and reinvest all the time. Mr B is good at it.

And audio is NOT processed in the same fashion it was 25 years ago. At the SABC we had top of the line everywhere. Studer, Neumann, Shoeps... And a department with techies to maintain this gear. Today it is different.

What I would like an opinion on is: Would the A&H Qu-24 be capable of producing much the same w.r.t. audio quality as the M32?

Is the M32 worth waiting for?

I need to make a decision before too long. The South African Rand/Dollar exchange is 10 times (plus) higher here. And our middleman likes retailing for double other countries. The A&H which retails for $2799 in the USA - retails here for $4828.

Midas would be good for business but worth twice the money?

Would appreciate helpful comment!
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

I was not trying to argue that preamps do or do not matter, but to point out the blatant hypocrisy of how people around her bring up preamps and converters when they want to trash a console, or forget them when they want to trash a different console.

The M32 brochure explicitly says it's the same preamp from heritage and etc and fader from pro series. Take that for what you will, but it says it.

That said, John I think you are probably right. All these recent mixers sound pretty clean and normal. I just think they way people talk about this around here is completely illogical.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Samuel Rees said:
That said, John I think you are probably right. All these recent mixers sound pretty clean and normal. I just think they way people talk about this around here is completely illogical.
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That is the nature of marketing multiple badges involving mature technology. Even digital consoles have been around for quite some time. When real differences do not exist, the marketers job is to manufacture differences.

I spent decades trying to understand what it is that cause consumers to spend several times the price to buy remarkably similar path performance, and as they say god (or the devil) is in the details. For one thing, customers make huge assumptions based on how the faders feel. Kind of like kicking the tires on a used car... Putting a longer throw fader on the M version is just smart marketing. I would voice the EQ to be more Midas like (Q and center frequency) unless they made the X-32 same as the typical Midas already. IIRC they may have the option of pushing the M version to higher clock/sample rate. While this would not be very different sounding it would give customers something to justify the price difference with. The worst thing for a customer is to think they have been fooled into paying more money for the exact same thing so Midas needs to make it just different enough so customers feel good about paying more. Note: I said different, not better. By all reports the X-32 is quite good.

JR
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Arik Semagin said:
I don't have illusions, please compare apples to apples! Name any other desk in that price range (below $3K in USA) with identical set of features that DOES sounds better? NONE! Nearest contenders, the Expression 3 and Qu-16/24 doesn't even come close!

Besides, on a typical X32 gig (one-off in a crowded club with badly-tuned PA) no one would ever notice the difference in desks (assuming the engineer knows what he's doing, many don't), there are sooooo many other factors involved!

I'm happy that my X32 paid for itself only after a few gigs and I don't have to worry about recouping my $15K-$30K investment in Yamaha, Pro-2 or DiGiCo
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I haven't tried the Qu yet, not going to comment on that. The Expression sounds poor to my ears. So I would probably prefer to use none of the desk you list here :)

By all means, if you look at what desks today can do compared to the cost and options of desks from the past, they are better as in more features.
I don't want features, I want sound quality. The X32 can do a gazillion things, but I don't like the sound of it.

I'm considering buying one and take it with me for a tour just to see if it's just me being grumpy and hearing with my eyes, because everyone seems to like it except me.
 
New Midas M32 Console

Helge Dr. Bentsen said:
I haven't tried the Qu yet, not going to comment on that. The Expression sounds poor to my ears. So I would probably prefer to use none of the desk you list here :)

By all means, if you look at what desks today can do compared to the cost and options of desks from the past, they are better as in more features.
I don't want features, I want sound quality. The X32 can do a gazillion things, but I don't like the sound of it.

I'm considering buying one and take it with me for a tour just to see if it's just me being grumpy and hearing with my eyes, because everyone seems to like it except me.
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With my recent experiences I honestly can't believe that you can hear such a distinct sound from the expression or the X32 that either actually compares unfavorably to another desk of even an adjacent class. All of these new things are so clean that I just can't believe these claims anymore. What is your desk of choice that sounds so magical?
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

I completely agree with you samuel. if using good converters, digital mixers do not have a 'sound' except for the effects. what is important is workflow and features.. i am sure helge only likes yamaha and roland, the brands he is a dealer.. i always think it is unprofessional to make negative comments about the competition.. sorry just my opinion
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Louis Ismael said:
I completely agree with you samuel. if using good converters, digital mixers do not have a 'sound' except for the effects. what is important is workflow and features.. i am sure helge only likes yamaha and roland, the brands he is a dealer.. i always think it is unprofessional to make negative comments about the competition.. sorry just my opinion
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While I agree with the overall sentiment, that last statement is a little premature, I'd rethink what I post less Helge decides to make you eat some crow.


Sent from my iPhone
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Nick Davis said:
I think it all quite simple..the M32 is aimed at people who want a reasonable priced digital console with the functionality of the x32 But with Midas "quality" re (some) components and build and also do not want the B name tag.

What I think is a shame is that they (like the x32) built in local i/o rather than just having it work with the d16's ( or whatever the S16 equivalent will be called) which for many will be the standard configuration.
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i am with you about the local I/O. Why when the S16 was out at the same time. The console could have cost the amount of an X32 rack, and adding in the 2 S16's would have put you at about $3200.00, why not Behringer? Everyone on the Behringer site wants an X32 controller without the I/O. All those preamps wasted and they are going to make the same mistake again on more costly preamps. Why?
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Louis Ismael said:
if using good converters, digital mixers do not have a 'sound' except for the effects.
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People say this about DAWs as well, and there IS a difference. Ableton has a very different sound from ProTools and from Logic. All three are structured differently and process sound differently. Yes, they all do math. Some do the Common Core math, others slide rule math.

With consoles, the preamps can be made to sound different. The EQs can be made to sound different. The pan laws can be different. In this day and age, there isn't a vast difference in convertors and mic preamps. There is a difference, but not like there used to be. It is what is done after the convertors and preamps that is the big difference. The power supplies, the shielding, etc. Character can be built in.

To say that a StudioLive does not have a sound compared to a GLD or Soundcraft Performer is just silly. They sound totally different. When you get up into the higher end consoles, the differences become even more pronounced IMO. System architecture and third party plug implementation affect things. The same plug-in can sound different on two different consoles.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Glenn Adams said:
Why?
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Corporate Management 101 - Repeat the mistakes and find ways to screw up what works well.:razz:

Seriously though, having a full complement of inputs is a good selling point along with utterly useless stuff like RTA without averaging. While reality is that 90% of you pros and most of us high-flying amateurs have no use for more than a handful of local mic inputs, the need for the console to be a direct fit in a situation where someone is replacing an old Venice in an existing installation etc. means that the full complement is practical when the rear real-estate is available. Removing the preamps might bring the initial price down slightly, but adding two DL16 at €1200 each for a console price saving of €500 is not likely to make the console more attractive for anyone but a small fraction of potential buyers.
 
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