New Midas M32 Console

[Dirk Martens]

re: New Midas M32 Console

Motorized faders - same as pro series
Preamps - same as pro series
Nicer looking encoders (presumably better)
Better ergonomics with sloped control surface
New 192k A/D and D/A converters
96k ready
Presumably more DSP horsepower
More "pro" looking chassis, possibly more rugged
Chassis = carbon fiber, aluminum, steel = lighter weight
More rider friendliness than B

This is not a clone of an X32, as stated above. Like I guessed: $1000 in upgrades and $1000 for the name. Many will pay $1000 for the Midas name just do they don't have to buy a B. Why would they not do this.
That's part of the reason B bought the Brand Names - products are worth more money, just with the Midas name on it.

It says, XL4 Preamps on it. What does that mean? It means nothing because the XL4 never had an AD converter strapped to it.
Nicer looking encoders. Might feel nice but it won't make it sound better
Better ergonomics. I let someone else test that in sunlight.
192K AD Converters are possibly the same as in a Pro desk. They were just never mentioned. BTW it makes no difference if you don't process in 192khz. And even then its debatable
96 kHz ready. Every Digital desk can do 96khz it just halves the feature count.
and so forth. My bet is on that it is just an X32. That doesn't make it a bad desk. But it is not a Midas. Just like the XL250 was a DDA desk.

 

[Arik Semagin]

re: New Midas M32 Console

Are you kidding me? There is a valid reason for higher megapixel counts over the (excessive) 192kHz capacities.

Not to mention, since you bring it up, there are so many other parts of a digital camera that make a difference, such as the quality of the lens, the storage medium, compression algorithms, dynamic range, iris size… my point is that there are so many other parts of quality of a A/D conversion such as jitter, aliasing, noise floor from analog components, and many others, just like in digital cameras. In the end, sample rates above 96kHz and arguably 48kHz are superfluous. The quality of the rest of the specs is going to make a bigger difference.

+1. May be I didn't get my point clear. High megapixel number stamped on camera is just a reason to make non-techical camera buyers (which most are) to believe that higher number equals better camera. BULL! But very few understand all other characteristics involved (that you've listed above), so they will eat high megapixel number like fish eats bait. My old 8MP Canon camera (6 years old) still takes better pictures than new Samsung G4 phone with 13MP sensor BUT tiny lens. Optics, processor and everything else are more important. Agree that sample rates above 96K serve the same purpose.

 

[Branson Sagear]

re: New Midas M32 Console

High megapixel number stamped on camera is just a reason to make non-techical camera buyers (which most are) to believe that higher number equals better camera. BULL! But very few understand all other characteristics involved (that you've listed above), so they will eat high megapixel number like fish eats bait.

This sounds exactly like what the company now known as Midas is doing: Catering to non technical sound desk buyers (which most are) to believe that higher numbers equals a better mixer.

If this thing really has xl4 mic amps, big whoop. The reason those desks had such a great sound is the sum of all the parts. The eq was fantastic, it had great headroom, and when you pushed it it sounded great. And yes, the mic amps were cool.

All digital desks are perfectly clean in the digital side of things. You can't "push" a digital desk, you only get louder until the point of digital clipping. Math is math. The Avid Venue desks at least have the ability to use some plugins to make everything sound a bit less perfect, especially with a few offerings from Waves.

I'm sure that there are a lot of people out there who love digital clean. That's cool, I can respect that. I'm in the camp of people who like a little snot on my sound. I'm strictly a rock mixer though, so I don't have an opinion for other genres.

There's a big difference between sounding perfect, and sounding awesome. I'll take awesome any day.

The analog desks that Midas is famous for also felt great to use. You could tell you're twisting a knob, and you could feel with your fingers what you were doing. I'm not a big fan of most new rotary encoders. They are super smooth, and I personally can't tell how much I'm turning the damn thing. I resort to having to look at the screen, which takes my focus off of the music. Not a fan. I also am super OCD when it comes to numbers... everything has to end in a zero, or an even number, stuff like that. That's my own downfall but I know many others out there with the same kind of thing going on in their own heads. At least the Yamaha stuff had clicky knobs. Avid desks are either too fast, or too slow depending on if you're in fine mode or not.

 

[Arik Semagin]

re: New Midas M32 Console

This sounds exactly like what the company now known as Midas is doing: Catering to non technical sound desk buyers (which most are) to believe that higher numbers equals a better mixer.

If this thing really has xl4 mic amps, big whoop. The reason those desks had such a great sound is the sum of all the parts. The eq was fantastic, it had great headroom, and when you pushed it it sounded great. And yes, the mic amps were cool.

Agree, but MIDAS doesn't really pushes up the numbers now, all these talks are mostly about preamps in M32 being "MIDAS" or "Not MIDAS" or "XL4" or "Not XL4". "96K Capable" and "192K capable (converters)" are still just statements, neither is as of now. Question is, how much all this really matter for desk to be great sounding. Sound output is the ultimate result, no matter how it was done at this or that desk. MIDAS Pro line preamps (3/6/9) were reported by seasoned engineers as "XL4 equivalent", understandable, because there is obviously some analog circuitry before analog signal hits Cirrus Logic A/D chips and becomes numbers, even though it may not be the exact copy of XL4 pres schematics (Yamaha made similar statements about PM5D preamps being equivalent of PM5000 pres), but besides pres there are dynamics, EQ and bunch of other processing involved.

VENUE desks are a bit different, because VENUE is a software, just like ProTools, running on Windows XPe, whether it's full Profile, Mixrack, SC48 or S3L. VENUE desks are no more than a control surface ("Big Mouse"), so VENUE doesn't depend on hardware pres that much as others. Preamps are a bit different but all processing is done by VENUE software. Number-crunching algorithms, essentially. Different plug-ins sounds quite differently.

"MIDAS" versus "Not MIDAS" discussion here leaves open two fundamental questions: are preamps in M32 really different from X32 pres and from MIDAS Pro line pres (3-digit DL stage boxes and onboard pres in Pro 1/2/2c). For now we have to rely on MIDAS marketing/NAMM statements that they are, but until someone will get all pieces of pie in their shop (M32, X32 and MIDAS Pro) and will do thorough benchmark testing, we won't know if they are different in design, and if yes, how much is the difference in sound (what really matters). Uli mentioned here before that DL151 will be compatible with X32 (M32 too, I assume now), so it would be nice to test M32 with DL16 and DL151/251.

As of now M32 seems to be a good marketable addition to Behringer/MIDAS line that fits that market segment nicely (slightly above X32/Soundcraft Si/Presonus SL, below small Pro desks (1/2/2c), SC48, M7CL), kind of BMW X1 and Mercedes 100-series that starting to appear in USA, they don't make the rest of BMW/Mercedes lineup look bad. We all understand that M32 is not the same as even Pro 1, not talking about 3/6/9. But I'd be happy to throw an extra $2K for its look alone and MIDAS badge (and to please some clients), even knowing that electronically M32 may be identical to X32 up to the last resistor on a circuit boards.

 

[Steve Payne]

re: New Midas M32 Console

This sounds exactly like what the company now known as Midas is doing: Catering to non technical sound desk buyers (which most are) to believe that higher numbers equals a better mixer.

There is some evidence to suggest that you are spot on. The company now known as Turbosound, which bears a direct relation to the company now known as Midas, just announced the release of 140 new products. Inspection of their updated website reveals that about 90% of their newly released products are previously existing products that have been assigned new names and model numbers. Voila. Also, a cursory glance looks like powered speakers have gotten twice the amplifier power. Not quite. Power ratings have been changed from rms to peak. There's a lot of smoke and mirrors mixed in with all of these great technological / cost cutting break throughs. Cheaper and better is definitely the path of digital technology. I get that. On any given day, there is a limit to what can really be achieved and where the bullshit starts getting a little hard to plow through. Just saying, those wearing the rose colored glasses, the big guy currently driving this bus is a MARKETING genius. A very smart guy indeed. When the dust has finally settled, in the big picture, I hope this will all turn out to be a good thing for our industry. At the moment I am withholding judgement.

 

[Arik Semagin]

re: New Midas M32 Console

There is some evidence to suggest that you are spot on. The company now known as Turbosound, which bears a direct relation to the company now known as Midas, just announced the release of 140 new products. Inspection of their updated website reveals that about 90% of their newly released products are previously existing products that have been assigned new names and model numbers....... the big guy currently driving this bus is a MARKETING genius. A very smart guy indeed. When the dust has finally settled, in the big picture, I hope this will all turn out to be a good thing for our industry. At the moment I am withholding judgement.

BIG +1 on that. Uli is a marketing genius with vision. Hope he will create a tightly integrated line of products like Harman's and will force JBL and Co. to cut prices down a bit. For now being able to simple plug CAT5 into Ultranet port on stagebox and control bunch of speakers independently is a killer! Without extra components of HiQ Net. I'd buy Turbosound for that alone (hopefully he'll make some add-on modules for other speakers as well, if not there's room for third-party developers).

Kind of reminds what our Steve Jobs did with iPhone: all the components of it were known and existed before, he just put it together the right way. And even when he presented the very first iPhone in 2007 it was in fact a barely working prototype, iOS software had so many bugs that he had to walk precise presentation sequence, from one app to another, to avoid crashes. But Jobs is Jobs, a genius in many senses, he made it look flawless and iPhone was an instant hit.

 

[Chris Nixon]

re: New Midas M32 Console

VENUE desks are a bit different, because VENUE is a software, just like ProTools, running on Windows XPe, whether it's full Profile, Mixrack, SC48 or S3L. VENUE desks are no more than a control surface ("Big Mouse"), so VENUE doesn't depend on hardware pres that much as others. Preamps are a bit different but all processing is done by VENUE software. Number-crunching algorithms, essentially. Different plug-ins sounds quite differently.

Every digital console has a preamps with A/D converters, a piece of processing hardware and a control surface. Whether or not these are contained within the same chassis or how they're separated doesn't matter for audio quality. With a VENUE console yes, all processing is done by VENUE software, but how does that differ from any other console? They all have some sort of software that processes the audio.

Chris

 

[Arik Semagin]

re: New Midas M32 Console

Every digital console has a preamps with A/D converters, a piece of processing hardware and a control surface. Whether or not these are contained within the same chassis or how they're separated doesn't matter for audio quality. With a VENUE console yes, all processing is done by VENUE software, but how does that differ from any other console? They all have some sort of software that processes the audio.

Chris

Agree. It's just to what degree software and hardware are split in processing, thus how much sound quality will depend on actual chips inside. VENUE and MIDAS Pro desks are similar in this respect, except MIDAS runs on Linux (there's a standard PC motherboard inside, small one). Yamaha uses their proprietary DSP chips and firmware, so they rely on hardware more (= less crashes). VENUE is more hardware-independent than other desks (someone reported that preamps in new S3L stageboxes are better than in Profile's stage rack, could be, because they are newer). DSP cards in both VENUE and big MIDAS desks have nothing to do with sound quality, they just speed up calculations, so it's just A/D and D/A chips and processing algorithms used that have effect on sound quality.

 

[David Sturzenbecher]

re: New Midas M32 Console

For now being able to simple plug CAT5 into Ultranet port on stagebox and control bunch of speakers independently is a killer! Without extra components of HiQ Net.

What extra components of HiQnet? A switch?

 

[Bennett Prescott]

re: New Midas M32 Console

Again...why the marketing about 192kHz? You prove my point. The chips in the X32 support sample rates up to 216kHz. There was no marketing touting that. I think the marketing is misleading the uninitiated to think the console's internals are 48/96/192kHz. It appears to be working at gearslutz.

Dudes and Dudettes,

I decided to resolve this by walking over to the Behringer / Midas / Turbosound Combined Boothinator 9000.

The M32 console is 192kHz. If you are using the internal ins and outs the whole signal path is 192kHz. This is even better than the XL and Pro Series, which are 96 kHz, and of course the X32 which is 48 kHz.

Any questions arise from trying to interface the different systems. The stage boxes for the X32 system are 48kHz, so there must be sample conversion. The Pro series stage boxes can talk to the M32 as well, because some (all?) of them have 48 kHz outputs.

Hope that answers the question, sorry for not having more information but I can only escape the booth for so long.

 

[Andrew Broughton]

re: New Midas M32 Console

This is even better than the XL and Pro Series, which are 96 kHz, and of course the X32 which is 48 kHz.

Better? Probably not.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

re: New Midas M32 Console

Better? Probably not.

Sorry, larger would have been a better term to use. I thought about saying that differently before posting but didn't. Some of the best things I have ever heard happened at 48kHz / 24 bit, I am not a racist and not particularly impressed by higher sample rates. That said, the market is not me (and vice versa) so, if I were going to introduce this product, I would also use a higher clock rate. Certainly that is one of the critical specifications where end users will see it is "better" than the X32 and spend their extra $2K.

 

[Andrew Broughton]

re: New Midas M32 Console

If all else remains the same, the ONLY advantage to a higher clock speed (above the 44.1khz minimum) is lower possible latency, but only if you have an application where higher latency is an issue.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

re: New Midas M32 Console

If all else remains the same, the ONLY advantage to a higher clock speed (above the 44.1khz minimum) is lower possible latency, but only if you have an application where higher latency is an issue.

Except for two things:
1) HD Tracks and other download sites will only accept tracks recorded at 96kHz or higher, so if you plan on doing any recording I would recommend using the highest clock rate available. Storage space is cheap.
2) Some D/A converters blow and have bad reconstruction, and some DSP filters are badly behaved around Nyquist, so higher clock rates alleviate this issue. I am not in the least way suggesting the Behringer or Midas products have this problem, but IMHO it is a large part of why there is such a preference for high sample rates. Bad experiences in the past.

 

[Rob Spence]

re: New Midas M32 Console

I am glad to see this console. I don't plan to buy one as I have enough desk for now.
It is the first in a while in the $5k area.

There really are not many choices with good features and expansion (like digital stage boxes) in the $4-7k range

I bought a GLD80 last summer with the "free" stage box and that is a bunch more than $7k. I wanted a smaller footprint and lower weight than my LS9-32 for some gigs.

It is nice to see more choice.
Sent from my iPad HD

 

[Andrew Broughton]

re: New Midas M32 Console

1) HD Tracks and other download sites will only accept tracks recorded at 96kHz or higher, so if you plan on doing any recording I would recommend using the highest clock rate available. Storage space is cheap.

I was considering live sound consoles for the purpose of mixing live sound. A recording can easily be resampled if for some reason you need to upload it.

2) Some D/A converters blow and have bad reconstruction, and some DSP filters are badly behaved around Nyquist, so higher clock rates alleviate this issue. I am not in the least way suggesting the Behringer or Midas products have this problem, but IMHO it is a large part of why there is such a preference for high sample rates. Bad experiences in the past.

Which current crop of D/A converters in which products have this problem?

 

[Per Søvik]

re: New Midas M32 Console

The M32 console is 192kHz. If you are using the internal ins and outs the whole signal path is 192kHz.

I seriously doubt that. I know that what the reps tell you is supposed to be more accurate than what we can speculate, but this sound very improbable.

 

[Sean Thomas]

re: New Midas M32 Console

The M32 console is 192kHz. If you are using the internal ins and outs the whole signal path is 192kHz.

I seriously doubt that. I know that what the reps tell you is supposed to be more accurate than what we can speculate, but this sound very improbable.

No way it has a full 192k internal path. How can a 48k console (M32) be "96k ready", if it is allready at 192k?

I know nothing about manufacturing and component level design, but I bet it is getting harder to find 48k AD chips. I would guess that the best chips on the market are 192k and that's what you use no matter what your internal SR is going to be. I'm sure 192k is down-sampled first thing to 48k for all internal processing.

I don't like the term "96k ready". What would have to change to run the board at 96k?

 

[Chris Johnson]

re: New Midas M32 Console

Dudes and Dudettes,
The M32 console is 192kHz. If you are using the internal ins and outs the whole signal path is 192kHz. This is even better than the XL and Pro Series, which are 96 kHz, and of course the X32 which is 48 kHz.

Really? thats interesting.

Aside from the fact that sample rates above 48k really mean nothing...

If its 192 from the stagebox then that means only 12ch in each direction on an AES50 connection? Thats a bit of a limiting factor...

 

[Paul Kerrison]

re: New Midas M32 Console

Hi there,
Does anyone know if the M32 has the 8 channel block selection limitation that the X32 does and does v2.0 allow for pairing of even and odd channels, or still only odd and even?
thanks
Paul k