New Midas M32 Console

[Nick Davis]

re: New Midas M32 Console

Hi there,
Does anyone know if the M32 has the 8 channel block selection limitation that the X32 does and does v2.0 allow for pairing of even and odd channels, or still only odd and even?
thanks
Paul k

from what I gather Midas M32 same firmware as x32 - v2 still blocks of 8 plus odd even pairing.
Though for inputs you can change the routing for each channel individually ( just not from routing menu) - not sure / can't recall offhand but android Mix Station may have a routing matrix that would do this more easily

 

[Jason Misterka]

re: New Midas M32 Console

OK

It is fun to speculate on some of these questions. But until shown otherwise, I am in wait-and-see mode and operating under these two assumptions:

1) The engineering and design team at Midas made the best console that they could here, given the price point and product strategy dictated to them by their management. For the budget available, they chose the parts and built the design in a fashion to give the best achievable results.

2) The marketing department is also trying to do the best they can to sell it to you, possibly using weak arguments and poor science to excite the non-back seat quarterbacking masses who only know that 192 is four times bigger than 48!

But what do you expect them to do? They have a brochure to make! Press releases! Websites! Marketing can't just say "This console is good. Trust us. Buy it." They have to have something to say, so they are hunting for an edge. And the more we talk about it, then the more we are playing into their little plan Just kidding.

Anyway, the proof is in the pudding. Not much more to say on the M32 until it is being shown to us in a demo in our shop.

And in regards to Yamaha. You are missing the party. Better hurry up if you want to have anyone left to sell to. Not just because of the Music Group releases, but also A&H, Soundcraft, etc have some reasonably good options as well. It won't be too long before every local church and every 14 year of kid has their own awesome (no joke) digital console and the market is entirely saturated. We are selling our last two Yamaha consoles this Spring, simply due to smart inventory rotation and not because I don't like them. But at the moment our replacement strategy for our mid-sized desks does not include Yamaha's current offerings.

Jason

 

[Kevin Hayes]

re: New Midas M32 Console

I haven't used the X32 in the field, but I've heard great things about the sound and workflow so I don't look at this as a bad thing if it sounds great.

The quality of the onboard EQ and compression are more important to me than sample rate. Can anyone clear up whether or not you can adjust the head-amp gain independent of the digital trim? One of the selling points of the Pro series was that you could heat up your analog pre-amps and then dial back the digital gain.

 

[Arik Semagin]

re: New Midas M32 Console

Dudes and Dudettes,

I decided to resolve this by walking over to the Behringer / Midas / Turbosound Combined Boothinator 9000.

The M32 console is 192kHz. If you are using the internal ins and outs the whole signal path is 192kHz. This is even better than the XL and Pro Series, which are 96 kHz, and of course the X32 which is 48 kHz.

Any questions arise from trying to interface the different systems. The stage boxes for the X32 system are 48kHz, so there must be sample conversion. The Pro series stage boxes can talk to the M32 as well, because some (all?) of them have 48 kHz outputs.

Hope that answers the question, sorry for not having more information but I can only escape the booth for so long.

Have you heard it from MIDAS/Behringer folks at their booth? If M32 is indeed a 192K all the way through (internally), then it's hell of a desk and should beat 'em all. I just have no idea how they can keep MSRP at $5K? Even the cheapest Pro 1 hits almost $10K.

However, there's some discrepancies even at the MIDAS M32 web page, M32 is stated to be "96K capable", and converters in one place stated to be "192K", in other "192K capable". Not to question your expertise, but can we get some clarification from MIDAS people here on M32 sample rates, what rates are "capable" and what rates are actually used there.

192K seems to be overkill, may be for studio use only (however if all 192K stuff is kept inside of M32 and it indeed does make sound better, from onboard inputs, then who cares?). Being able to use DL16 or all of Pro line 3-digit stageboxes with M32 @96K seems to be more reasonable.

Thank you for taking effort and getting at least some clarity on sample rates, seems like MIDAS people don't read this forum, as do Behringer folks at that 400+pages "X32 mega thread".

 

[Arik Semagin]

re: New Midas M32 Console

OK

We are selling our last two Yamaha consoles this Spring, simply due to smart inventory rotation and not because I don't like them. But at the moment our replacement strategy for our mid-sized desks does not include Yamaha's current offerings.

Jason

Just curious which Yamaha desks are you dumping?

Also. when you'll guys will get your M32, do you have any Pro series stage boxes to test it with (151/251 at least). It would be nice to see if it will work, and if yes, what sample rates it will let you select with these boxes. Will 96K be available?

Someone posted that X32 sees the DL251 box when connected, draws proper pic on display. Don't know if it actually works. Anybody tried it?

 

[Arik Semagin]

re: New Midas M32 Console

I haven't used the X32 in the field, but I've heard great things about the sound and workflow so I don't look at this as a bad thing if it sounds great.

The quality of the onboard EQ and compression are more important to me than sample rate. Can anyone clear up whether or not you can adjust the head-amp gain independent of the digital trim? One of the selling points of the Pro series was that you could heat up your analog pre-amps and then dial back the digital gain.

from 2.01 firmware release notes, they are independent. In other words you can have one analog trim per input but also independent digital trim, for monitor board. Haven't tried it myself, don't want to mess up my desk with beta upgrade. Hopefully 2.5 will come soon. 2.01 is still missing a lot of desired features. Being able to use all 16 faders for channels on X32 Compact is nice (similar to "extend" button on Pro desks), but I'd like to see POP (population) groups too (kind of custom layers of non-adjacent channels like on Pro 1/2/2c)

 

[Bennett Prescott]

re: New Midas M32 Console

Have you heard it from MIDAS/Behringer folks at their booth? If M32 is indeed a 192K all the way through (internally), then it's hell of a desk and should beat 'em all. I just have no idea how they can keep MSRP at $5K? Even the cheapest Pro 1 hits almost $10K.

I didn't walk over to their booth just to look at a spec sheet, no. Also , the Pro 1 has been reduced in price to $8K.

 

[gordon mcgregor]

re: New Midas M32 Console

"the Pro 1 has been reduced in price to $8K" oh joy more small theatres buying the baby one of these and running out of faders on even the simplest of shows, the M32 doesn't help much but may be better, though knowing the local supplier of all things Midas upselling wll be the preffered route. G

 

[Max Warasila]

re: New Midas M32 Console

"the Pro 1 has been reduced in price to $8K" oh joy more small theatres buying the baby one of these and running out of faders on even the simplest of shows, the M32 doesn't help much but may be better, though knowing the local supplier of all things Midas upselling wll be the preffered route. G

Oh good I'm not the only one frustrated with that thing's 8 faders… hopefully they will have techs experiences enough at mixing to pull the plug on that. More importantly… I'm really concerned with schools and these consoles. The price is right for most school auditoriums, and it's good for Music Group because it's like giving out student software, but my Lord… I don't know if I want M32/X32s in all the venues...

And hopefully, I didn't just give Uli a good next market to conquer…

 

[Arik Semagin]

re: New Midas M32 Console

No way it has a full 192k internal path. How can a 48k console (M32) be "96k ready", if it is allready at 192k?

I know nothing about manufacturing and component level design, but I bet it is getting harder to find 48k AD chips. I would guess that the best chips on the market are 192k and that's what you use no matter what your internal SR is going to be. I'm sure 192k is down-sampled first thing to 48k for all internal processing.

I don't like the term "96k ready". What would have to change to run the board at 96k?

I guess the processing power of M32 could be the limiting factor. Changing clock to 96K is easy, but it will double the amount of numerical data that has to be processed. Unless the chips inside M32 are different from those of X32 and can handle that. (Actually X32 chips may handle 96K too). Besides, everything in the system has to be at 96K, from stagebox inputs to stage outputs. If something stays at 48K, doubling the clock elsewhere doesn't make sense.

Actual preamps design may have more effect on sound quality than sample rate. There are M-Audio rack preamps for barely $100 and Apollo units for $2000, all at 192K. See the point?

My guess will be that rate increase is possible, and Uli may bump the M32 to 96K just to keep more market separation between M32 and X32 lines. I agree with Bennett, people with money must have logical reasons to spend an extra $2K on M32, besides better look, even though sonic differences may be minimal. I wouldn't be surprised if the only difference between X32 and M32 firmware (except start-up screen) will be "96K" sample rate selection, absent in X32. I mean hypothetical future M32 upgrade from "96K capable" to "96K".

 

[Arik Semagin]

re: New Midas M32 Console

Everyone can have their opinions

 

[Mike Brown]

re: New Midas M32 Console

"the Pro 1 has been reduced in price to $8K" oh joy more small theatres buying the baby one of these and running out of faders on even the simplest of shows, the M32 doesn't help much but may be better, though knowing the local supplier of all things Midas upselling wll be the preffered route. G

Pro 1 at 8k is a great deal. I mixed a 40 input show on the Pro 2 (not c) and didn't even touch the left most 8 faders. Between DCA's and POP groups I didn't need them to get around.

I am suspicious of the 192k end to end. Despite what the Midas reps say, I would be willing to bet that it is really 48k end to end at the moment.

The "benefits" of 192k do not outweigh the massive costs even in hardware consoles.

HDTracks is a funny website. I have first hand knowledge of a few records on there that were merely upsampled.... I suspect thats not even the minority.

Still kind of excited to mix on one in the wild.

 

[Arik Semagin]

re: New Midas M32 Console

And hopefully, I didn't just give Uli a good next market to conquer…

Don't worry, he sees possible markets for his products that may not even exist. Uli probably thought of that years ago. Like our Steve Jobs: there were MP3 players and Napster-like song download sites, and then came iPod tied to iTunes.... and game changed.

 

[Matt Lillie]

re: New Midas M32 Console

You're really starting to sound like a shill.

Gordon, did you ever mix a real theatre show on Pro 1/2c? You would mostly mix with DCAs anyway, so having 8 channel faders isn't that bad as it looks. Besides, MIDAS Pro has unique POP layers (or POPulation groups), custom-assembled layers of non-adjacent channels, you can put there all the channels you'll need for that particular scene. They also have blue "extend" button that converts VCA/DCA faders to channel faders, thus having 16 on Pro 1/ Pro 2c, 24 on Pro 2. Behringer X32 Compact does the same in V2 firmware, by pressing two adjacent channels layer select buttons simultaneously.

I had the same idea about less faders on surface coming from M7 world, actually it isn't that bad. I'd take Pro 2c over M7 any day. Just the fact that I can throw it and DL251 stagebox in the trunk of a regular car and drive straight to a gig makes it a winner. Can't do it with M7, sorry! And of course an added benefit of 96K and being phase-coherent end-to-end.

 

[Max Warasila]

re: New Midas M32 Console

Don't worry, he sees possible markets for his products that may not even exist. Uli probably thought of that years ago. Like our Steve Jobs: there were MP3 players and Napster-like song download sites, and then came iPod tied to iTunes.... and game changed.

I really wouldn't compare Jobs and Behringer as the same. Uli may be good at recognizing what the market wants, but he's not creating absolutely visionary products. He's merely changing the price point of what already exists. The only thing the two share is an adeptness at marketing and understanding their customers/the general population.

That's the main thing I still sincerely dislike about Behringer. I have yet to see one truly visionary product. I'll say that the X32 did in fact change the game a little bit, and is a lean-mean-mixing-machine (if it were a Mackie product that might have been in the marketing material…). But it's not revolutionary. Neither is the M32. And both of them are simply undercut versions of the truly innovative products that came before them.

But then again, we can draw the parallels to the car industry again. Who is actually creating truly innovative cars? Not more than a handful, if even. Smart was innovative and different. Tesla is different and innovative. But for the most part, it's all just improvements and upgrades to the same old designs.

At any rate, I tire of this discussion. When something new/interesting/useful comes out about the M32, I'm interested. Until then, keep beating the dead horse.

 

[Arik Semagin]

re: New Midas M32 Console

You're really starting to sound like a shill.

Matt, I don't like when people start talking shit about desks they never actually used on real gigs. I bet he never saw Pro desks other than online or may be at dealer's showroom. If he did, he would not bitch about 8 channel faders (see Mike Brown's post right below mine). It's like saying "I just can't stand Behringer name..." without reference to a particular product and problem he had with it. Don't mean to be rude, let's be pros and stop talking shit about gear you didn't work with.

 

[Arik Semagin]

re: New Midas M32 Console

I really wouldn't compare Jobs and Behringer as the same. Uli may be good at recognizing what the market wants, but he's not creating absolutely visionary products. He's merely changing the price point of what already exists. The only thing the two share is an adeptness at marketing and understanding their customers/the general population.

Agree, they are not on the same scale. But our world (pro sound) is small too, so X32 at $3K today is no less than original Macintosh in 1984 at that level. The revolutionary part is its price tag. To have a $10-15K mixer functionality for $3K is not a small deal. Ford model T, may be?

Steve Jobs didn't created revolutionary products either. Everything Apple did before and now existed in various forms, he just put the parts together the right way. Books are written about it. There were camera phones before, then music players, then Treo and Blackberry, then touch screens, and then came iPhone that had all this in better package.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

re: New Midas M32 Console

I was considering live sound consoles for the purpose of mixing live sound. A recording can easily be resampled if for some reason you need to upload it.
Which current crop of D/A converters in which products have this problem?

You are suggesting adding "fake" HF information to fool HD Tracks into accepting your concert recording? They do run an FFT on these recording to make sure there is actually another octave of content there... at least according to mastering guys I talked to regarding the situation. Apparently a well meaning producer added a tape effect to a popular record because he liked the sound, but the plugin brick walled audio at 20khz even though the recording was at 96kHz. Bummer.

I have no idea if any modern products have poor reconstruction.

 

[Kevin Maxwell]

re: New Midas M32 Console

Matt, I don't like when people start talking shit about desks they never actually used on real gigs. I bet he never saw Pro desks other than online or may be at dealer's showroom. If he did, he would not bitch about 8 channel faders (see Mike Brown's post right below mine). It's like saying "I just can't stand Behringer name..." without reference to a particular product and problem he had with it. Don't mean to be rude, let's be pros and stop talking shit about gear you didn't work with.

I have not used a Midas Pro desk for any shows yet, I have been using the Avid Profile and the SC48 lately. But I have found that for the musical theater shows that I have done the VCA spill only helps up to a point. With that capability I can get away with the 26 faders of the SC48 but 24 is the absolute minimum fader count for me. Now if I was doing a concert that is a completely different workflow, and I can get away with less faders.

Musical theater is a completely different beast. I would like to have at least 24 dedicated input channel faders and at least 8 master faders. And that still is going to leave a lot of stuff on the other layers.

I couldn’t come up with a usable way to make the X32 work due to my workflow. If I can do pop groups or VCA spill like function on the M32 or the X32 version 2.0 with the enhanced cue/scene functionality that looks interesting to me and I will have to take another look at the M32/X32 to see if I can make it work for me.

 

[John Penkala]

re: New Midas M32 Console

Just curious which Yamaha desks are you dumping?

Also. when you'll guys will get your M32, do you have any Pro series stage boxes to test it with (151/251 at least). It would be nice to see if it will work, and if yes, what sample rates it will let you select with these boxes. Will 96K be available?

Someone posted that X32 sees the DL251 box when connected, draws proper pic on display. Don't know if it actually works. Anybody tried it?

The X32 works with the DL251. As of now, the X32 does not work with the DL150 series stage boxes.