tall skinny speakers

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Here's a link to the predecessor model that mine came from Ramsdell Pro Audio - Products

Mine use a bigger 5.5? inch speaker times 8 of them plus a 1 inch horn along with the fancy crossover stuff. Anyway the magic happens when you have 2 per side on top of each other powered with lots-o-watts - I'm using a Crown Xti6000 for them. They haven't put them on the web site yet. They're also developing yet another even bigger better model and I've heard it in the shop as I stop by to check on things. (I'm the pest that lives down the street :lol: )

So how do they get a narrow pattern in the HF using a single driver without a large horn?

Vertically stacking drivers will result in cancellations which give a narrower vertical pattern (along with lots of lobes-but manufacturers like to "ignore" that little fact), but 1 single driver is not stacked.

As far as I know, there are only a couple of ways to get a narrow pattern (vertically stacked devices-large horns-vertically spaced separated devices). Have they figured out a different way?

Just curious and trying to learn more.

 

[Gene Hardage]

Re: tall skinny speakers

So how do they get a narrow pattern in the HF using a single driver without a large horn?

Vertically stacking drivers will result in cancellations which give a narrower vertical pattern (along with lots of lobes-but manufacturers like to "ignore" that little fact), but 1 single driver is not stacked.

As far as I know, there are only a couple of ways to get a narrow pattern (vertically stacked devices-large horns-vertically spaced separated devices). Have they figured out a different way?

Just curious and trying to learn more.

Not sure what you're asking me about - wide coverage or top to bottom coverage.

They spray nearly 180 degrees wide fairly evenly to my ear. What's amazing to me is the way they cover an area outside with huge amounts of volume. The best way to describe it is a bigger better Bose on steroids with much better fidelity of course.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Not sure what you're asking me about - wide coverage or top to bottom coverage.

They spray nearly 180 degrees wide fairly evenly to my ear. What's amazing to me is the way they cover an area outside with huge amounts of volume. The best way to describe it is a bigger better Bose on steroids with much better fidelity of course.

I am talking about the VERTICAL coverage. It is rated at 30°

From what I can see-there is no horn (or it is VERY small) on the HF driver.

For example-if the HF goes down to 2Kz, then to have pattern control at 30° the horn needs to be around 16.5" tall.

If it is 4Khz, it still needs to be 8" tall.

Maybe I am missing where the pattern control comes from.

With a small horn or no horn-the pattern would be really wide. The small drivers would also have a wide coverage.

 

[Gene Hardage]

Re: tall skinny speakers

I am talking about the VERTICAL coverage. It is rated at 30°

From what I can see-there is no horn (or it is VERY small) on the HF driver.

For example-if the HF goes down to 2Kz, then to have pattern control at 30° the horn needs to be around 16.5" tall.

If it is 4Khz, it still needs to be 8" tall.

Maybe I am missing where the pattern control comes from.

With a small horn or no horn-the pattern would be really wide. The small drivers would also have a wide coverage.

Maybe I can talk Rick into joining the forum - he mentioned that he might but he felt self conscious about it because he was a manufacturer. I told him to just put it in his signature as a disclaimer and that there are plenty of other manufacturers on here and we all learn from the collective wisdom. I can't answer your questions regarding vertical coverage because I'm just using my ears and don't have the ability to to listen way high and low. One thing's for sure - this design has merit because so many companies are making similar product. Each of them have some kind of unique twist to the design. I've been able to use the single stick and sub combination with great success and am really looking forward to using a double stick and sub combination when the gig allows. Everyone agrees when they hear them for the first time - they can't believe that much sound can come from such a small box.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: tall skinny speakers

I can't answer your questions regarding vertical coverage because I'm just using my ears and don't have the ability to to listen way high and low.

It is actually VERY easy to listen to the vertical coverage. Simply turn the cabinet 90° so that it is laying on its side-on a road case or bass cabinet or whatever.

Now walk from side to side and you are listening to the vertical coverage of the cabinet top to bottom.

To make it real easy-put some band limited pink noise around say 4K or 6K. The coverage (at those freq) should be real easy to hear.

Or you can simply use a standard crossover and put a highpass up high (even 1 or 2Khz) and you should be able to tell what the coverage is.

 

[Gene Hardage]

Re: tall skinny speakers

It is actually VERY easy to listen to the vertical coverage. Simply turn the cabinet 90° so that it is laying on its side-on a road case or bass cabinet or whatever.

Now walk from side to side and you are listening to the vertical coverage of the cabinet top to bottom.

To make it real easy-put some band limited pink noise around say 4K or 6K. The coverage (at those freq) should be real easy to hear.

Or you can simply use a standard crossover and put a highpass up high (even 1 or 2Khz) and you should be able to tell what the coverage is.

Sounds like a plan! Never really thought of that - so the next time I have a minute to fiddle with things I'll give them a listen on their sides and see how far they go that way. Now that I've had them a while and gotten used to the way they sound when singing in them I really like the wide coverage because it allows me to go totally old school with no monitors for my band gigs.

 

[Ron Kimball]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Maybe I can talk Rick into joining the forum

Hey, next time you talk to Rick tell him I'm still lovin' those custom 10" coaxial monitors he built me . I'm also curious if he ever got the XS-12 to work? I was talking to him in 2012 about those but when he put his prototype up against a TH-Mini it didn't measure up .

 

[Gene Hardage]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Hey, next time you talk to Rick tell him I'm still lovin' those custom 10" coaxial monitors he built me . I'm also curious if he ever got the XS-12 to work? I was talking to him in 2012 about those but when he put his prototype up against a TH-Mini it didn't measure up .

I think he's been fiddling with various dimensions and crazy airflow port type stuff and has re-voiced one of the bigger ones. He was trying to get more of that 70-100 area punch that was lacking without sacrificing too much of the really low stuff that it did so well. They have another name now so go to the site and look at Chimera under subs. I've heard the 21 version compared to his other beast the Sub Engine with the same 21 and have formed my own opinion regarding what they would be good for. He has yet to really power one up with a mega type power amp and load it with one of the newer higher rated 21" neo 's so they have not yet been measured up to their full potential. I think they would do great for any system needing some super duper low end below 40 where most normal subs tend to start rolling off. I would use it just for below 40 - maybe the dubbsteppers would like them for DJ stuff along with the usual subbage ? Did you see that pick of the 8 Sub engines used on a football field for the MLK celebration? I was there and it was amazing.

 

[Ron Kimball]

Re: tall skinny speakers

I think he's been fiddling with various dimensions and crazy airflow port type stuff and has re-voiced one of the bigger ones. He was trying to get more of that 70-100 area punch that was lacking without sacrificing too much of the really low stuff that it did so well. They have another name now so go to the site and look at Chimera under subs.

Yah, I'm mostly looking for something with the same output as a TH-Mini but closer to 50 lbs. I'm very pleased with the voicing of the TH-Mini's , I don't need the really low end stuff as I don't do DJ type music. I have thought about finding a neo driver for the TH-Mini's, perhaps with a 4 or 2 ohm impedance as I dislike bridging an amp for them as I now have to - though the NU3000 has held up fine so far even when pushed into the red for a couple outdoor rock concerts I did this summer.

 

[drew gandy]

Re: tall skinny speakers

...Now that I've had them a while and gotten used to the way they sound when singing in them I really like the wide coverage because it allows me to go totally old school with no monitors for my band gigs.

I want to make a comment on this and some things mentioned a few posts back (perhaps expanding on what Ivan was saying). Unless there is some special acoustic process at work here that is not being divulged, these skinny speakers are basically 360 degrees in the horizontal below around 800-1Khz and probably don't narrow to 180 till you get up around an octave higher. This is why you hear so much onstage. That may or may not be a good thing. It sounds like it's been a good thing for Gene so far for his simplified monitor arrangement but I will suggest that outside gigs are likely the most forgiving of the uneven patterns.

By comparison, a typical 12" with horn box will still have about 180 degrees of width down to around 500-600hz but eventually go omni as well as the frequency drops. Now, compared to some of the other skinny speaker designs on the market that don't use a tweeter, this model likely does have fairly wide coverage in the mid treble. But, as Ivan pointed out, it won't match the vertical characteristics of the rest of the line of drivers and the crossover point is likely high enough that the pattern is all over the place through the upper midrange (1-3khz) in both the horizontal and vertical. This is just based on the physics of the loudspeaker drivers as I see them in the photos.

These issues are some of the compromises of loudspeaker design and you basically pick your poison. My purpose for mentioning this is to encourage people to take simple spec sheet dispersion numbers (for any speaker) with a large grain of salt. The real story about the dispersion is often a much longer story and won't fit on a single page spec sheet. I've heard people mention 180 deg dispersion for skinny speakers (different brand) before and I want to be clear that there is a lot of energy going out all around these types of sticks. The direction the energy doesn't go (as much) is directly above and below the stick.

 

[Gene Hardage]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Yah, I'm mostly looking for something with the same output as a TH-Mini but closer to 50 lbs. I'm very pleased with the voicing of the TH-Mini's , I don't need the really low end stuff as I don't do DJ type music. I have thought about finding a neo driver for the TH-Mini's, perhaps with a 4 or 2 ohm impedance as I dislike bridging an amp for them as I now have to - though the NU3000 has held up fine so far even when pushed into the red for a couple outdoor rock concerts I did this summer.

The single 18's in the pics I posted are neo Faital loaded and just over 50 lbs but probably bigger than you're wanting to carry around. They are a great single 18 sub. Maybe a single 15 Faital of the 4 ohm variety? Most of these newfangled woofer types are really high powered - I just got one to use with a leftover power module that came back to me and it sounds pretty good and it handles 1000 watts rms - 2000 peak. sorry for the thread swerve - I think we all need bumper stickers that say I brake for subs!

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: tall skinny speakers

My purpose for mentioning this is to encourage people to take simple spec sheet dispersion numbers (for any speaker) with a large grain of salt. .

Nice post. It is amazing how many people in our industry put ZERO thought into how the basic physics work-and then never question the numbers.

And you HAVE to question any simple numbers (coverage patterns-freq response-impedance etc) if they are not supported by additional graphs.

In my opinion anybody who does not provide the basic graphs is either lazy or is trying to hide something. Or else they believe that the typical customer who buys their gear simply doesn't understand how to read simple graphs or understand what they mean. Therefore they just spec any number they think they will buy.

And this is not limited to lower end products-it happens at the highest levels and most expensive products available.

Just sayin'

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Yah, I'm mostly looking for something with the same output as a TH-Mini but closer to 50 lbs. I'm very pleased with the voicing of the TH-Mini's , I don't need the really low end stuff as I don't do DJ type music. I have thought about finding a neo driver for the TH-Mini's, perhaps with a 4 or 2 ohm impedance as I dislike bridging an amp for them as I now have to - though the NU3000 has held up fine so far even when pushed into the red for a couple outdoor rock concerts I did this summer.

There may be some drivers that have a lower impedance that may work in the Danley Tapped horns. HOWEVER-be very cautious about a neo woofer without trying it first.

While it may work just fine-the "typical" cooling mechanism in a neo woofer forces a lot of air across the magnet structure. This can cause a lot of "wind noise" that can be heard out front. Different models have different amounts of noise.

This noise is not an issue with drivers that are mounted where the dustcap faces the listener.

 

[Rick Alan]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Are you saying 2 "Tall Skinny" speakers will out run 3 4-10 Linear Tapered Array?

Also has anyone heard the RCF new NX-L24a? Similar concept. My RCF rep does not have any to demo but gave me the classic answer of order them and if you do not like them I will let you return them no charge. Would like to know how the NX-L24a sound stacked and how much spl you gain.

Thanks

This is what happens when you have to use all your toys at one time...

Notice the tall skinny speakers mounted on top of that single 18 cab. They were vocals only on a separate sub mix and they did everything one could hope for and more. While playing break music I demonstrated to several different people that they held there own quite nicely compared to the stack next to them with a total of 9 twelves and 3 two inch horns. It was easy to A>B them using the sub mix vs. the main output. Nobody could believe they were hearing just those skinny speakers (with subs of course) Yes it's a pain set up yet another pile of junk but the end results are remarkable. In the future I will use just the skinny speakers stacked on top of each other and a single or double 18 for smaller gigs.

 

[Gene Hardage]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Are you saying 2 "Tall Skinny" speakers will out run 3 4-10 Linear Tapered Array?

Also has anyone heard the RCF new NX-L24a? Similar concept. My RCF rep does not have any to demo but gave me the classic answer of order them and if you do not like them I will let you return them no charge. Would like to know how the NX-L24a sound stacked and how much spl you gain.

Thanks

Hey Rick Allen - you have overlooked my description of what you're seeing in that pic. Those 3 larger cabs are not the 4-10 Linear Tapered Array types. They were made for me on a whim and seem to work well - they have 3 twelve inch Faital's and a 2" Faital horn - all dsp is from the Crown System Architect and each speaker gets it's own voice - 4 separate Crown Xti4002 amps through a NL8 connector and 11 gauge wire (biggest I could find that would fit the NL8's) each of those 3 speakers gets about 2000 watts. To answer your question - NO it will not really outrun those big tops but they will give them a serious run for there money. The amount of sound that comes off of 2 stacked is simply amazing. My friend Joey is doing outdoor events with just the 2 skinny ones and subs like the pics I posted at the beginning of this thread. I looked to see where you are located but your profile doesn't say. If you are close there will eventually be a band gig that will need that setup so maybe you could come hear with your own ears.

 

[Rick Alan]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Gene,

I need to get over to St Pete to hear them. (I am east of Orlando) I have been talking to Rick about 4 Sub Engine 21" for EDM club scene. Have not decided on tops. To many choices out there. On the short list are DSL SM80, RCF TT25-A and something from Rick possibly 5.5in Linear Array or LTA4-10.

 

[Gene Hardage]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Gene,

I need to get over to St Pete to hear them. (I am east of Orlando) I have been talking to Rick about 4 Sub Engine 21" for EDM club scene. Have not decided on tops. To many choices out there. On the short list are DSL SM80, RCF TT25-A and something from Rick possibly 5.5in Linear Array or LTA4-10.

Get him to demo the bigger better sticks with the 6's and 2" - he has them but they aren't on the web site. I've heard 2 on top of each other and they would probably match that big stack of 3 in the photo I posted. The only issue is trying to find a way to safely stand them on top of each other. 2 per side on top of each other would probably match up nicely with the 4 21's for disco ducking.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Get him to demo the bigger better sticks with the 6's and 2" - he has them but they aren't on the web site. I've heard 2 on top of each other and they would probably match that big stack of 3 in the photo I posted. The only issue is trying to find a way to safely stand them on top of each other. 2 per side on top of each other would probably match up nicely with the 4 21's for disco ducking.

So how well do the separated HF drivers "play together"?

Any measurements? At different distances?

 

[Gene Hardage]

Re: tall skinny speakers

So how well do the separated HF drivers "play together"?

Any measurements? At different distances?

Sorry no charts or graphs but I would love to have a Smaart person in the Tampa-St Pete area step up and tell me exactly what my tired old ears are hearing. The best I can do is let people hear mine when I use them for my band.

 

[Ron Kimball]

Re: tall skinny speakers

While it may work just fine-the "typical" cooling mechanism in a neo woofer forces a lot of air across the magnet structure. This can cause a lot of "wind noise" that can be heard out front. Different models have different amounts of noise.

Yah, I got to hear an original TH412 that sounded REALLY bad at full boogie. They switched to some drivers without that issue shortly after that. I do have to say the TH-Mini's with the stock (B&C) drivers can hold their own against many MI 2x18's, a stoopid amount of SPL comes out of them little boxes when hit with recommended power. I probably should invest in a gym membership rather than new lighter drivers ~;-)~:wink: .