tall skinny speakers

Re: tall skinny speakers

I am still curious about how the narrow vertical pattern is achieved with a single driver? Any ideas?
Same way as the DSL tall skinny speaker, the dispersion spec is not accurate for the entire bandwidth.

The SBH-10 has a 10 degree vertical pattern in the upper range, but widens at the bottom of it's frequency range, even though the spec does not mention that fact.

The Ramsdell mini line array widens in pattern at both the top and the bottom, like DSL, the manufacturer gives a simplified version of the dispersion.
 

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Re: tall skinny speakers

Same way as the DSL tall skinny speaker, the dispersion spec is not accurate for the entire bandwidth.

The SBH-10 has a 10 degree vertical pattern in the upper range, but widens at the bottom of it's frequency range, even though the spec does not mention that fact.

The Ramsdell mini line array widens in pattern at both the top and the bottom, like DSL, the manufacturer gives a simplified version of the dispersion.

No loudspeaker has the same pattern throughout its full operating band-and some wiggle a bit (some a lot) in the middle of the band.

In the perfect world the rated pattern would extend to around the highest freq of interest and maintain that down to the point at which it starts to go omni.

If it is "Christmas treeing" or varying a lot, it is very hard to predict coverage and the sound will have a different freq response at different seats.

In the case the SBH10 (more data to come) it has around a 10 vertical pattern down to around 800Hz or a bit lower-I don't have the data in front of me- and then it starts to go omni.

This is exactly why measured data is important-especially polar patterns or directional graphs. Without it-there is no way of knowing what is going on-and on axis does little to tell the story in a typical install.
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

In the case the SBH10 (more data to come) it has around a 10 vertical pattern down to around 800Hz or a bit lower-I don't have the data in front of me- and then it starts to go omni.

This is exactly why measured data is important-especially polar patterns or directional graphs. Without it-there is no way of knowing what is going on-and on axis does little to tell the story in a typical install.
Absolutely, there is no way of knowing what is going on in the polar response of either the DSL or the Ramsdell product from their published specifications.

Oh well..
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

Absolutely, there is no way of knowing what is going on in the polar response of either the DSL or the Ramsdell product from their published specifications.

Oh well..
Agreed that the SBH10 complete data has not be finished yet. But the vast majority of Danley products have complete polar data as measured by a 3rd party who has no connection with Danley-except cashing the checks----------

To bad that can't be said for most products out there.
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

I am always amazed by the number heads out there.
Most innovation in loudspeakers and enclosures came first by some guy in a shop with a saw and some wood.
if it did not sound good on to the next innovation. The paperwork came later.

I am about to turn 56 this month and in all my years at a high end audio shop to years on the road and in bars no paper could describe how well a system would preform in any space. You had to hear it for yourself.

i have heard the perfect measured, polar response, step function, spectral, phase, power response, all fall apart in the real world.

Pull your heads out of the analyzers and open your ears and mind.
Numbers can prevent a load of repeat errors, but anyone can build a true line array with just about any good 3-5 inch drivers and get great sounding stick. Anyone.

Oh and a word to the so called current makers of 2,3,4 way " line array" boxes. That ain't no line;
it is just a stack of boxes on their sides. It works a little. Even when 3 S4's were stacked they got even better.

Back in the 70's a local " to me, about 10 min from the Brothers Clair" store called Dimension 5 sound in Wolmelsdorf did the Montrose Jazz Fest. They were a Bose dealer and clamped about 12 801's to each of 4 I beams. The sound was killer.
It only took Bose 35 years to make what the boys at D5 proved back then without paper.

To me the only thing that beats a True Line Array is a point source like a Unity Horn or 80 S4's in one array.
And I do not need the see the paperwork on any of it to know it will work and sound great.

Lots of boxes taking it easy trumps a few boxes screaming.
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

TT25s are awesome boxes

TT26s are a dissapointment

Well that is your opinion, but in using these for 2 days of events this past weekend, we are going to buy more TT26A boxes. Also, there is a firmware update available for this box and I know you are aware of it...which gives even more low end output to this awesome box...we are dealers and users, not just dealers. We chose this system for the specs and convenience and have not been disappointed. Everyone that has heard this combo has been totally amazed at the sonic quality and output , yours included....this is a great system for theater, festivals and like events that need superior sound in a small footprint ... we used this system for a televised event over 2013 Christmas and in reviewing the footage, it really is not seen...but again the audience was amazed with the sound. It does not fit every "bill" for every "event". I would not use it to DJ at all, that would be a waste of a good system...but for performances, corporate work, festivals, concerts in the park, this is now our go to system for live production....just say'n
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

I am still curious about how the narrow vertical pattern is achieved with a single driver? Any ideas?

Physics, just plan old physics. How did a set of Shure Vocalmasters cut a crowd of about 8k for the Beatles. It didn't, but they were heard.
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

Physics, just plan old physics. How did a set of Shure Vocalmasters cut a crowd of about 8k for the Beatles. It didn't, but they were heard.

You say physics-and that is EXACTLY what I am talking about. What physics are involved that allow a single HF driver to have a narrow vertical coverage-with no horn.

The Beatles never used the Vocal Master. It cam out after they stopped playing live in 1967. They only played one date (that I am aware of) after that (the rooftop session at Apple records) and for what I understand it was not a vocal master

Please enlighten me if I am wrong here.

At least a column of drivers has a cancellation pattern that allows for a narrowing of the pattern. A SINGLE driver does not have this.

PLEASE PLEASE explain to me what physics are involved with that single driver. I am REALLY curious----------

Especially if it is "simple physics".
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

I am always amazed by the number heads out there.
Even when 3 S4's were stacked they got even better.

.
If by "better" you mean louder-then I would agree. But I would disagree that 3 could possibly sound as good as a single cabinet.

Yes you could line up the mids and lows-but the HF devices are simply spread to far apart. You will introduce interaction when you have devices that are spread that far apart relative to the wavelengths they are reproducing.

You will have to do a lot of Proving" to me that 3 S4s sounded any better than 1. Especially on clarity-intelligibility etc side of things.
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

You say physics-and that is EXACTLY what I am talking about. What physics are involved that allow a single HF driver to have a narrow vertical coverage-with no horn.

The Beatles never used the Vocal Master. It cam out after they stopped playing live in 1967. They only played one date (that I am aware of) after that (the rooftop session at Apple records) and for what I understand it was not a vocal master

Please enlighten me if I am wrong here.

At least a column of drivers has a cancellation pattern that allows for a narrowing of the pattern. A SINGLE driver does not have this.

PLEASE PLEASE explain to me what physics are involved with that single driver. I am REALLY curious----------

Especially if it is "simple physics".


You are correct. Congratulations.

Shea was a bunch of column speakers (early line array) Made by Vox with Celestian drivers called the AC100 I think.
It was 1966 and I was wrong about the turnout.
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

If by "better" you mean louder-then I would agree. But I would disagree that 3 could possibly sound as good as a single cabinet.

Yes you could line up the mids and lows-but the HF devices are simply spread to far apart. You will introduce interaction when you have devices that are spread that far apart relative to the wavelengths they are reproducing.

You will have to do a lot of Proving" to me that 3 S4s sounded any better than 1. Especially on clarity-intelligibility etc side of things.

By stacking 3 high there would be 6 -18" in a line, 12-10" and the horns / slots in a line but not close like todays multiway line array.
And Yes they did sound better this way. I did not say phased or measured better. Ask some Clair old timers. "Sounded Better"
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

I am still curious about how the narrow vertical pattern is achieved with a single driver? Any ideas?

It does not.

The driver at the top of a single driver type line array has the same coverage as if it were up there all alone.
 

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Re: tall skinny speakers

It does not.

The driver at the top of a single driver type line array has the same coverage as if it were up there all alone.
I was not talking about the old column or cabinet that use a stacked number of drivers-but rather how a SINGLE driver (as in the speaker in question) has a narrow pattern

How do you have a "single driver" line array? Other than using our Paraline technology

If you are meaning a "single driver" line array as one that uses a stacked line of drivers of the same size-then I totally disagree.

If the driver was by itself it would have a pretty wide pattern (horizontal and vertical) depending on the freq and the size of the drivers. The reason so many "columns" use small drivers is because the larger the driver the more it becomes "beamy" and ot keep the driver to driver spacing small.

But as soon as you start adding additional drivers in a line they start to cancel and the pattern gets narrower-cue to the cancellation of the other drivers based on the spacing and the freq in question.

If you don't believe me-then measure it on axis-above the column and down in the middle of the column. You will not get the same response or coverage. If it was alone-all measurements should be the same (with the higher and lower measurements being a bit lower in SPL)
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

By stacking 3 high there would be 6 -18" in a line, 12-10" and the horns / slots in a line but not close like todays multiway line array.
And Yes they did sound better this way. I did not say phased or measured better. Ask some Clair old timers. "Sounded Better"

Yeah, the problem here being that "sounds better" changes every time you listen. That's the only reason measurements are really awesome. Tools are totally objective, and give us a way to cut through our highly clouded perceptual hearing. Come on, you know that.
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

I was not talking about the old column or cabinet that use a stacked number of drivers-but rather how a SINGLE driver (as in the speaker in question) has a narrow pattern

How do you have a "single driver" line array? Other than using our Paraline technology

If you are meaning a "single driver" line array as one that uses a stacked line of drivers of the same size-then I totally disagree.

If the driver was by itself it would have a pretty wide pattern (horizontal and vertical) depending on the freq and the size of the drivers. The reason so many "columns" use small drivers is because the larger the driver the more it becomes "beamy" and ot keep the driver to driver spacing small.

But as soon as you start adding additional drivers in a line they start to cancel and the pattern gets narrower-cue to the cancellation of the other drivers based on the spacing and the freq in question.

If you don't believe me-then measure it on axis-above the column and down in the middle of the column. You will not get the same response or coverage. If it was alone-all measurements should be the same (with the higher and lower measurements being a bit lower in SPL)

I am sorry, but I came in toward the end. I thought we were talking about a single driver in a line of single sized drivers. Your are correct and the all time champion of spectral analysis.
Yes I agree, smaller, close, and longer works best.
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

Yeah, the problem here being that "sounds better" changes every time you listen. That's the only reason measurements are really awesome. Tools are totally objective, and give us a way to cut through our highly clouded perceptual hearing. Come on, you know that.

I've said it above that those tools are great at reducing repeat errors. But I have yet to see a measurement tell me if it was going to be better or suck. That is all.
If you all can tell me that you can trust all those numbers so much than I would submit that I could build and tune and mix a system while being stone deaf.

I've heard 40 S4's night after night sound the same in 65 locations, tuned to the room with nothing more that the FOH guys voice into a Sennheiser MD 421.
That is what I know and is what is missing in todays multiway J array systems.
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

By stacking 3 high there would be 6 -18" in a line, 12-10" and the horns / slots in a line but not close like todays multiway line array.
And Yes they did sound better this way. I did not say phased or measured better. Ask some Clair old timers. "Sounded Better"
I still see no way that they could sound better with the different sound arrivals.

That is EXACTLY why line arrays because popular-because the multiple arrivals caused notches in the response in the systems like the S4 and many others.

They may have "said" it sounded better-but that was because it was LOUDER or the bass was coupling better than the highs. And everybody like more bass :)

And "better" means different things to different people. Some people like distorted sound over clear sound. Some like the "ice pick in the forehead" sound over a smooth response. So who knows----------------

If you were to run a single cabinet and a 3 cabinet stack at the same SPL the single cabinet will sound better-clearer.

Now the whole "same SPL" becomes an issue-because the freq response will likely be different-so what is "equal".
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

I still see no way that they could sound better with the different sound arrivals.

That is EXACTLY why line arrays because popular-because the multiple arrivals caused notches in the response in the systems like the S4 and many others.

They may have "said" it sounded better-but that was because it was LOUDER or the bass was coupling better than the highs. And everybody like more bass :)

And "better" means different things to different people. Some people like distorted sound over clear sound. Some like the "ice pick in the forehead" sound over a smooth response. So who knows----------------

If you were to run a single cabinet and a 3 cabinet stack at the same SPL the single cabinet will sound better-clearer.

Now the whole "same SPL" becomes an issue-because the freq response will likely be different-so what is "equal".

Very interesting - I have to agree with the Bass people and ice pick people too. I've mixed it all and the one that stays with me most is a trash metal band that I ran monitors for; when they came off stage and told me, Great Monitors" to which I asked, how can you tell.

Watch Sound City again and tell me what they all felt when they heard music from the Neve.
We all know more about sound today then ever, yet I feel we are missing something important.
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

Very interesting - I have to agree with the Bass people and ice pick people too. I've mixed it all and the one that stays with me most is a trash metal band that I ran monitors for; when they came off stage and told me, Great Monitors" to which I asked, how can you tell.

Watch Sound City again and tell me what they all felt when they heard music from the Neve.
We all know more about sound today then ever, yet I feel we are missing something important.

Not disagreeing but in 'Sound City'...great film... The were in the room and knew they were gonna hear music through the Neve. If Dave REALLY had a sense of humor he would have a 'B' Xenyx mixer hidden and used for playback!
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

This has turned into an interesting conversation. It's refreshing to hear opinions from different sides of an issue that is based on actual experience.