tall skinny speakers

Re: tall skinny speakers

Glenn Adams said:
ok Ivan. You have proved me no rocket scientist but whereas I love this design I am unsure about this one thing.

Why wouldn't the big horn suffer a similar timing issue that a multi driver line array does?
follow me for a second, I am not referring to the comb filtering and cancelations that a line of front loaded drivers has, even if small closely spaced.

the thing is 60 inches tall , the sound in the video is shown exiting in time across the element like it were a stream of light.
each beam on the horizontal line to its target.
if someone were standing in front of it would they hear only the sound from the beam at that level and not the timing changes of the sound 1, 2, 4, 8, or 30 inches above and below this point?

if you are seated in front of one 8 feet away the top is how far away? You are the math wiz so I let it to you to work the triangulation out. Just saying.
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There is a lot going on inside the cabinet that is very different than other designs.

For 1 in each paraline lens the entire freq response comes out of the lens. Not the highs out of the lens and the lower freq from somewhere else.

So the lens has an effect on the actual full freq response-not just the highs.

Also with the different size lens-the "timing" is different-creating a curved wave front-not a flat front as other designs. Hence the reason it is intended as a "stand alone' system.

The timing issues only become a real problem when the levels from the different drivers are close to equal. Because the individual lens provide pattern control-the level in the adjacent band is greatly reduced-as if there were stacked drivers.

There is a lot more work that needs to go into the understanding of exactly what is going on. I can only speak for the demos that I have done and the people that are amazed by it. So a lot of questions don't have a 'real answer" yet-or one that is easily explained.

i would love to have more time to play-but I have lots of real work to do. So play time comes in spurts.

Due to the fact that it acts more as a horn, the actual placement (mounting height and angle) will depend on the intended coverage area. In general you will mount the SBH10 higher than a normal "column" type speaker.

We are still working on details and such.
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

I understand that it is new. And full range.
I get the curve and the need for it. Again I am someone who can see a design and almost hear it in my head. I know I am going to love the sound coming out of a design like this.

i have one more question about the B&C 5 inch coax drivers in it. They are meant to be played full range in a box of some sort, so I am wondering how the handle playing into the plate of the Paraline lens? What kind of phase issues and funk comes out of a 2 way driver in a throat of a horn like that?

Oh and yet another- How would this design differ from a line of ribbon drivers that were horn loaded? I get that the curve would not be there and I am sure the SBH would have higher spl and a wider freq response due to the driver being used.
 
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Re: tall skinny speakers

Ivan Beaver said:
I would disagree-to a point.

The SBH10 is intended as a SINGLE use cabinet. If you stack them-the results are not the same-so you cannot add or subtract boxes as you can with "other" typical products.

Because of the different sized paraline lens-the sum of the individual units make the total cabinet.

If you need a different pattern-you have to go to a different box.

Now you could use 1 for the main floor and 1 for the balcony-but not 2 for the main floor stacked.
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Two a side stacked for the main floor is exactly the way I would need to use them. Since the vertical pattern of each paraline lense can be altered by the placement of the driver on the lense, would it be possible for DSL to build top & bottom paired cabinets, perhaps also shaping the vertical pattern of the entire array at the same time to a downward bias?
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

Ivan Beaver said:
Danley publishes MEASURED data of multiple boxes. I am not aware of any other manufactures that do this. Please enlighten me if I am wrong.
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It looks like Renkus publishes measured data for their TRAP reference point arrays.

I see Danley has a SH-50 array loudspeaker data file. Are there others?



Sent from my iPhone
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

Glenn Adams said:
I understand that it is new. And full range.
I get the curve and the need for it. Again I am someone who can see a design and almost hear it in my head. I know I am going to love the sound coming out of a design like this.

i have one more question about the B&C 5 inch coax drivers in it. They are meant to be played full range in a box of some sort, so I am wondering how the handle playing into the plate of the Paraline lens? What kind of phase issues and funk comes out of a 2 way driver in a throat of a horn like that?

Oh and yet another- How would this design differ from a line of ribbon drivers that were horn loaded? I get that the curve would not be there and I am sure the SBH would have higher spl and a wider freq response due to the driver being used.
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We are not using B&C speakers in the SBH10

They are loaded into the paraline lens the way other drivers are loaded into our Synergy horns.

We are not having any "funk" that is noticable coming out of the lens. In fact everybody comments on how clear and detailed they sound.

Other than the pattern not being the same-the freq response and SPL- it is hard to say what would be "different".
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

Mike Pyle said:
Two a side stacked for the main floor is exactly the way I would need to use them. Since the vertical pattern of each paraline lense can be altered by the placement of the driver on the lense, would it be possible for DSL to build top & bottom paired cabinets, perhaps also shaping the vertical pattern of the entire array at the same time to a downward bias?
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You do not want to stack these these like other traditional columns. We are going to be having other patterns-wider vertical- and "half columns" like you describe that can be used stacked (and one inverted).

All in due time--------------- Along with some other new products before to much longer.
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

All right Ivan,

In an effort to be direct and concise I am going to ask a question that requires a yes or no answer.

Is there negative interference where the vertical patterns of the adjacent paraline assemblies over lap? Or at least, are you willing to concede that there is more negative interference than there would be if a single high driver were used.

Yes or no?

Thanks for playing along. :D~:-D~:grin:
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

Brandon Wright said:
All right Ivan,

In an effort to be direct and concise I am going to ask a question that requires a yes or no answer.

Is there negative interference where the vertical patterns of the adjacent paraline assemblies over lap? Or at least, are you willing to concede that there is more negative interference than there would be if a single high driver were used.

Yes or no?

Thanks for playing along. :D~:-D~:grin:
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How about the honest answer. Which is I don't know.

I have not done enough measurement to give an answer one way or the other.

That would require some time measuring and to be honest (which is the way I like to roll)-I don't have the time right now. I have A LOT of other things on my plate.

Sorry that i can't make it simple-but I don't have any data to say one way or the other.

I really wish I had more time to "play" but there is work to be done.
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

Ivan Beaver said:
We are not using B&C speakers in the SBH10

They are loaded into the paraline lens the way other drivers are loaded into our Synergy horns.

We are not having any "funk" that is noticable coming out of the lens. In fact everybody comments on how clear and detailed they sound.

Other than the pattern not being the same-the freq response and SPL- it is hard to say what would be "different".
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Ivan - are they 5 inch full range or a Coax?
If a coax, are they able to be bi-amped?
 
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Re: tall skinny speakers

Ivan - one more time, can you make a 2 foot version (2 paralines would yield 16 inches) for theaters, home or otherwise?

i guess I could buy one and cut it into 4 chunks.

i want some for my home theater. Time to retire my faithful Acoustats.
 
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Re: tall skinny speakers

Glenn Adams said:
Ivan - one more time, can you make a 2 foot version (2 paralines would yield 16 inches) for theaters, home or otherwise?

i guess I could buy one and cut it into 4 chunks.

i want some for my home theater. Time to retire my faithful Acoustats.
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Shorter ones with different patterns will be in the future.

The paralline lens are not the same in the cabinet. There are 4 different sizes/shapes in the current model.
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

Ivan Beaver said:
.
I don't remember (I appologize if I did) saying that the SBH10 performed as a single source of sound-but rather that it performs like a horn-rather than a set of stacked devices.
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You wrote "it does have the pattern of a horn that is around 27' deep", and Tom Danley wrote a similar thing on the facebook page (only he said 20' deep and 5' tall) and the "preliminary" specifications sheet claim it "is actually a large horn with an effective path length of over 25’!"

The problem with those statements is the SBH10 does not have the pattern control of a large horn of those dimensions, which would have -6 dB pattern control of around 10 degree vertical down to around 225 Hz.

The polar graphs of the SBH10 show by 800 Hz (the very upper range of speech fundamental frequencies) it is 30 degree vertical, 400 Hz around 45 degrees, and nearly 90 degrees at 250 Hz.
Although the polars look relatively smooth (but who knows what they look like in any frequency range where the SBH10 actually exhibits a pattern control of 10 degrees) they most certainly do not look like those of a large horn with a depth of over 20 feet.

The response does look like classic "pattern flip", but one would not expect that from a "horn" that is 20 to 27 foot long with a 5' tall mouth.
For over half the audio spectrum the SBH10 does not conform to the rated specification, and the so-called horn gives no low frequency gain whatsoever over what would be expected from eight 5" drivers in a 60" tall line.

Art
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

What do you know, another number head. Looks like he has Ivan on the ropes, or should I say, lines.

i understand what Ivan is saying. But the proof will come from a highly suggestive listening test that I will get to do some day and then I will know what it " sounds like ". Horn or line! I am hoping for the best of both.
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

Gene Hardage said:
For those that have not seen the link at that other site - check out the video.

AV: Danley Enters The Column Loudspeaker Market With “Skinny Big Horn” - Pro Sound Web

It's a very different creature. Can't wait to hear them and would love to have a skinny speaker gathering with all the brands represented and plenty of people with measuring devices and lots of ears.
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Gene, if you read the last 2 pages you will see that the SBH 10 is what we are talking about and Ivan posted the vid along with some plots.
and thanks for the likes.

i like the idea of a gathering to listen to various designs.

a Skinny Speaker Symposium?
 
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Re: tall skinny speakers

Art Welter said:
You wrote "it does have the pattern of a horn that is around 27' deep", and Tom Danley wrote a similar thing on the facebook page (only he said 20' deep and 5' tall) and the "preliminary" specifications sheet claim it "is actually a large horn with an effective path length of over 25’!"

The problem with those statements is the SBH10 does not have the pattern control of a large horn of those dimensions, which would have -6 dB pattern control of around 10 degree vertical down to around 225 Hz.

The polar graphs of the SBH10 show by 800 Hz (the very upper range of speech fundamental frequencies) it is 30 degree vertical, 400 Hz around 45 degrees, and nearly 90 degrees at 250 Hz.
Although the polars look relatively smooth (but who knows what they look like in any frequency range where the SBH10 actually exhibits a pattern control of 10 degrees) they most certainly do not look like those of a large horn with a depth of over 20 feet.

The response does look like classic "pattern flip", but one would not expect that from a "horn" that is 20 to 27 foot long with a 5' tall mouth.
For over half the audio spectrum the SBH10 does not conform to the rated specification, and the so-called horn gives no low frequency gain whatsoever over what would be expected from eight 5" drivers in a 60" tall line.

Art
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Part of the discrepancy in the numbers depends on what you call the "horn length". Is that the length of a horn that has straight walls? or the length of a horn before the flare break (that is needed to reduce edge reflections)? or the length of the horn including the flare break? and so forth.

Personally I would not get to hung up on that.

Also the measurements that were made were not "lab" measurements-but rather some quick polars done in a parking lot late at night.

We will get real 3rd party measurements soon. All of the ones we have been building are going out for demos and installs-so no extras around yet to send off.

At least we are showing some preliminary data and will follow up with real data later-unlike many manufacturers who show NOTHING in the way of data-yet that does not seem to be an issue----------

For what it is worth there was a recent "large measurement session" in a highly reverberant room in which the SB10 was there along with a good number of steerable arrays-some MUCH MUCH larger. A number of measurements were taken-including STI measurements.

I have not seen the results-but from the independent guy in charge (who was "hosting/in charge of" the event) came the comment-WOW a passive box that held its own with the best of them.
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

Ivan Beaver said:
Part of the discrepancy in the numbers depends on what you call the "horn length". Is that the length of a horn that has straight walls? or the length of a horn before the flare break (that is needed to reduce edge reflections)? or the length of the horn including the flare break? and so forth.

Personally I would not get to hung up on that.

Also the measurements that were made were not "lab" measurements-but rather some quick polars done in a parking lot late at night.

We will get real 3rd party measurements soon. All of the ones we have been building are going out for demos and installs-so no extras around yet to send off.

At least we are showing some preliminary data and will follow up with real data later-unlike many manufacturers who show NOTHING in the way of data-yet that does not seem to be an issue----------

For what it is worth there was a recent "large measurement session" in a highly reverberant room in which the SB10 was there along with a good number of steerable arrays-some MUCH MUCH larger. A number of measurements were taken-including STI measurements.

I have not seen the results-but from the independent guy in charge (who was "hosting/in charge of" the event) came the comment-WOW a passive box that held its own with the best of them.
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Why does Danley stick with passive? When I saw the size of the crossover on a SH50 I was thinking how much better everything sounds with active systems, and how much better the SH50 could sound.
 
Re: tall skinny speakers

Glenn Adams said:
Why does Danley stick with passive? When I saw the size of the crossover on a SH50 I was thinking how much better everything sounds with active systems, and how much better the SH50 could sound.
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IF AND ONLY IF the electronic crossover is done properly.

We do some "unusual" things in the crossover and in fact the crossover design is part of the patent.

By just making it "not passive" does not automatically make it better.

It could actually sound worse.

I would not automatically say that everything sound better active. When you have a well designed passive system-the results can be very good. The SH50 is an example of that.
 
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