tall skinny speakers

[Glenn Adams]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Not disagreeing but in 'Sound City'...great film... The were in the room and knew they were gonna hear music through the Neve. If Dave REALLY had a sense of humor he would have a 'B' Xenyx mixer hidden and used for playback!

That would be a riot.

But the main point I am taking away from the work Dave is doing is that some things today are too perfect. And rock music, or any music, begs to be more random. All those measurements, all those processors, all the control of modern sound reinforcement has drained the excitement from the show. Sound has become sterile, too predictable, too controlled.

Remember what brought you into the sound business, or hobby? Remember the chest pounding of being FOH in an arena in front of 40 S4's? Or the likes there of?

We we have squeezed the life out of a live show to the point that if I close my eyes I can almost see a DJ loading a CD.

Do not get me wrong, I love those tools, the digital consoles, the DSP's, the numbers, but it is the music, the excitement of the show that made me want to be a part of the process.

 

[Glenn Adams]

Re: tall skinny speakers

This has turned into an interesting conversation. It's refreshing to hear opinions from different sides of an issue that is based on actual experience.

Thanks Chuck. I've lost a few friends that were from the HayDay of the sound reinforcement growth. A few that are still around like talking good old days. I was yacking away on the Behringer site and someone suggested to have a blog of old road stories so the lessons learned could be shared and passed down. And for the entertainment value, or horror show. You know, all those life experiences etched into us all. I will have to go back and find who said it but it was dubbed, a beer and a story from the road.

I'd like to meet or share stories from anyone who has been down range of a large scale sound reinforcement rig, or even club warriors.

 

[John Chiara]

Re: tall skinny speakers

That would be a riot.

But the main point I am taking away from the work Dave is doing is that some things today are too perfect. And rock music, or any music, begs to be more random. All those measurements, all those processors, all the control of modern sound reinforcement has drained the excitement from the show. Sound has become sterile, too predictable, too controlled.

Remember what brought you into the sound business, or hobby? Remember the chest pounding of being FOH in an arena in front of 40 S4's? Or the likes there of?

We we have squeezed the life out of a live show to the point that if I close my eyes I can almost see a DJ loading a CD.

Do not get me wrong, I love those tools, the digital consoles, the DSP's, the numbers, but it is the music, the excitement of the show that made me want to be a part of the process.

I can see how one might come to this conclusion but I will have to disagree on the life sound front. My experience is that so little actual mixing knowledge is present in a very large percentage of music productions that I attend that any sterility comes from an inability to contribute to the performance. With all the actual control at everyone's disposal, shows should be sounding MORE dynamic and emotional but don't. If I am mixing in a club and have more control, better reproduction, more and better quality FX...etc... Why don't the shows sound great?? Laziness or ingnorance are the only answers I can come up with....unless everyone is purposely doing a bad job.

 

[John Chiara]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Is there a simple calculation for vertical pattern over distance for the SBH 10?

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Is there a simple calculation for vertical pattern over distance for the SBH 10?

Data will be forthcoming along with inclusion in the DDT modeling program

Here is a link to the "basic operation/theory" of the SBH10

Danley Sound Labs SBH10 - YouTube

Here are some polars of the prototype

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=398432730303652&set=p.398432730303652&type=1&theater

Here is a video taken at 240' with the open microphone (being talked into) 2' or so to the side of the SBH10. It did not have the current name back then.

The recording was made using the video camera mic-so nothing special there.

I am tilting the cabinet up and back down-so you can hear the pattern as is comes back into play. You can'[t see what I am doing-due to the distance-but it gives you an idea of the pattern control

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10201597659497403&set=vb.126113687424773&type=2&theater

 

[John Chiara]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Data will be forthcoming along with inclusion in the DDT modeling program

Here is a link to the "basic operation/theory" of the SBH10

Danley Sound Labs SBH10 - YouTube

Here are some polars of the prototype

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=398432730303652&set=p.398432730303652&type=1&theater

Here is a video taken at 240' with the open microphone (being talked into) 2' or so to the side of the SBH10. It did not have the current name back then.

The recording was made using the video camera mic-so nothing special there.

I am tilting the cabinet up and back down-so you can hear the pattern as is comes back into play. You can'[t see what I am doing-due to the distance-but it gives you an idea of the pattern control

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10201597659497403&set=vb.126113687424773&type=2&theater

Just wondering about inside say a 100' deep room how big the vertical pattern would be.
So...5' at the speaker = ??? @100'

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Just wondering about inside say a 100' deep room how big the vertical pattern would be.
So...5' at the speaker = ??? @100'

Of course to be totally accurate you would have to say at what freq and how many dB down is the considered the pattern. It just doesn't magically stop.

But to kinda answer it-here is a PROTOTYPE model using the prototype loudspeaker and quickly gathered polar data.

I turned the audience area to a vertical plane (ie the back wall) and placed the loudspeaker 30' off the floor and 100' from the wall. I choose the 30' so you could see more of the actual pattern on the wall.

The mics are vertically stacked so you can see the freq response. You can see the height of each mic on the grid to the right in the Z dimension.

The wall is 100'x100'

This is at 2KHz.

I hope that helps answer the question. Until we get more final data, this is all we have to to with.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Of course to be totally accurate you would have to say at what freq and how many dB down is the considered the pattern. It just doesn't magically stop.

But to kinda answer it-here is a PROTOTYPE model using the prototype loudspeaker and quickly gathered polar data.

I turned the audience area to a vertical plane (ie the back wall) and placed the loudspeaker 30' off the floor and 100' from the wall. I choose the 30' so you could see more of the actual pattern on the wall.

The mics are vertically stacked so you can see the freq response. You can see the height of each mic on the grid to the right in the Z dimension.

The wall is 100'x100'

This is at 2KHz.

I hope that helps answer the question. Until we get more final data, this is all we have to to with.

Here is exactly the same setup-but with the center of the loudspeaker at 8' off the floor

 

[Glenn Adams]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Ivan - the SBH10 is one great design. I can't wait to hear them.
do you know what the msrp will be?

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Ivan - the SBH10 is one great design. I can't wait to hear them.
do you know what the msrp will be?

I don't work on the money side of things-i don't even have a price list at my desk

There are a number of jobs (high profile) that are being looked at that would use the SBH10s if the projects go our way. I am not at liberty to discuss those at this time however. But hopefully soon.

It is not for everything-but is just "another tool in the tool box" for certain situations. There will be other versions using the same technology coming out.

 

[Glenn Adams]

Re: tall skinny speakers

At last, a line array with total control of the pattern and with no combing. I love the design already. But I love the SH50.

Is that cheating?

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: tall skinny speakers

At last, a line array with total control of the pattern and with no combing. I love the design already. But I love the SH50.

Is that cheating?

The SBH10 is NOT a line array. It is a horn (the SHB stands for Skinny Big Horn). Or at least it acts like a horn and not like a line array-which has all sorts of interference patterns/lobes etc. While it does not have the gain that would come from a horn that would exhibit the same pattern control-it does have the pattern of a horn that is around 27' deep. It is kinda hard to install a horn that size in many rooms---------------------------

It just looks like a standard column.

We can easily change the horizontal pattern by narrowing the angle of the horn in front of the drivers. Of course as you narrow the coverage the horn mouth has to get larger-which means the cabinet will have to get deeper.

At least to maintain the same control. Some people care about that-others don't---------------------------------

You can't do that with any of the other products out there. Their horizontal is what it is (and can vary wildly with freq) and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[Brandon Wright]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Ivan,
Correct me if I am wrong, but while it may not be a line array it is an array of devices with a well defined patterns sitting inside a common horn.

The whole idea behind the synergy line is that it emanates as a single source because all of the drivers are acoustically close. Now, this closeness is difficult in the highs so you want to try to get the single biggest, baddest high driver out there and you get my favorite Danley box in theory right now, the SH96HO. If you want to go louder you now have to start reducing it's radiating area, but now you need several to get the pattern you had previously. What you end up with is several well defined high patterns feeding a single horn. Now, anytime you are arraying, the fewer and more well-defined the sources the better. This is why the SH46's array so well vs your usual 3way box( 2 vs 6 acoustic centers). However few and we'll-behaved they are, they will still only approximate a single source if they are not acoustically close. Is it below the threshold of our perception? Maybe. I would really like to hear and measure the boxes in question ( J2, sbh10, Caleb, etc...) and find out for myself.

I'm sure the marketing guys don't appreciate me repeatedly asking this question, but Physics not fads right? Lol I am just trying to further my understanding.

Thanks Ivan for any clarification you provide!

Best,
Brandon

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Ivan,
Correct me if I am wrong, but while it may not be a line array it is an array of devices with a well defined patterns sitting inside a common horn.

The whole idea behind the synergy line is that it emanates as a single source because all of the drivers are acoustically close. Now, this closeness is difficult in the highs so you want to try to get the single biggest, baddest high driver out there and you get my favorite Danley box in theory right now, the SH96HO. If you want to go louder you now have to start reducing it's radiating area, but now you need several to get the pattern you had previously. What you end up with is several well defined high patterns feeding a single horn. Now, anytime you are arraying, the fewer and more well-defined the sources the better. This is why the SH46's array so well vs your usual 3way box( 2 vs 6 acoustic centers). However few and we'll-behaved they are, they will still only approximate a single source if they are not acoustically close. Is it below the threshold of our perception? Maybe. I would really like to hear and measure the boxes in question ( J2, sbh10, Caleb, etc...) and find out for myself.

I'm sure the marketing guys don't appreciate me repeatedly asking this question, but Physics not fads right? Lol I am just trying to further my understanding.

Thanks Ivan for any clarification you provide!

Best,
Brandon

There are no marketing guys---------------yet anyway.

The SBH10 is actually 8 seperate paraline lenses that are different sizes. Actually 4 different sizes (upper and lower sections are mirror images).

So each is shaping the sound of each driver into a defined pattern of the overall output.

So you are correct in that it is an "array", but unlike other "line arrays" this is intended to work together to provide the pattern-rather than cancel to provide the pattern

It is not a matter of using the cancellations of the other drivers to achieve the directivity.

Take single 3 or 4" driver and look at the pattern of a single and a line. They are quite different. The multiple drivers produce the cancellation lobes.

Take single paraline lens and it is nowhere near omni (like a single small driver). It is very wide in the horizontal and very narrow in the vertical.

In the case of the SBH10-each one is a "slice of the pie" so to speak.

So I guess it really depends on how you define the term "array".

It is kinda explained in this video.

Danley Sound Labs SBH10 - YouTube

One of the reasons we make such large speakers (jerichos for example) is so that we can have the drivers close enough together to get good summation so we have good output level and quality and a single source.

No matter what the speaker is (brand or model) a single one will always sound better than multiples. I am not talking about or coverage capability here-just pure sonic quality-due to the fewer number of drivers that are spaced and reacting to each other.

So by combining larger numbers of drivers together in a single unit-we get both greater sound quality and greater output level.

 

[mackerr]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Take single paraline lens and it is nowhere near omni (like a single small driver). It is very wide in the horizontal and very narrow in the vertical.

In the case of the SBH10-each one is a "slice of the pie" so to speak.

SNIP

So by combining larger numbers of drivers together in a single unit-we get both greater sound quality and greater output level.

What you are describing is how the high frequency sections of all the "line arrays" I have used work. The pattern control through cancellation is in the lower frequencies where the wavelengths are long. High frequencies are in very narrow vertical pattern horns or waveguides.

The paraline plate is an interesting take on pattern control and matching time arrivals across the face of it, but an array of them is still an array where you are hearing the same kind of multiple arrivals that you do in any "line array". as you often point out, physics isn't a fad.

Mac

 

[Brandon Wright]

Re: tall skinny speakers

What you are describing is how the high frequency sections of all the "line arrays" I have used work. The pattern control through cancellation is in the lower frequencies where the wavelengths are long. High frequencies are in very narrow vertical pattern horns or waveguides.

The paraline plate is an interesting take on pattern control and matching time arrivals across the face of it, but an array of them is still an array where you are hearing the same kind of multiple arrivals that you do in any "line array". as you often point out, physics isn't a fad.

Mac

Exactly.

There are no pro "line arrays" that I know of that utilize line array principles in the high band. The paraline likely does a better job of managing path length and creating a smooth polar response and I'm sure the fixed position within the cabinet helps match the dispersion and splay, but it is not so perfect that the adjacent assemblies don't interfere where their patterns overlap (i.e. lobing).

I'm not saying that it isn't an acceptable compromise to get the level required with current driver technology, but let's not kid our selves and call it a single source.

I have no doubts that it performs better than a dozen hf waveguides with fixed dispersion angels with varying degrees of splay between boxes (i.e. 12 box "line array" hang), but it could basically be equated to an array of fixed dispersion waveguides with a fixed splay angle all feeding a horn.

I'm absolutely positive that the Jericho horns perform better than an array hang of 12 or more boxes, but it doesn't take much examination of the frequency response and polar plots to see that the smaller boxes are able to maintain a flatter more uniform response due to all of the drivers being acoustically close.

Again, my favorite box you guys make right now (in theory, I haven't heard it) is the SH96HO. It sure seems like it could a mini jericho box with all the benefits of the synergy principles. The frequency response appears killer in bi-amped mode. P.S. Ivan do you have a phase trace for the bi-amped version?

In closing, do these new Danley products utilizing multiple paraline assemblies create pattern control with cancellation? No

Is there some negative interference and lobing where the multiple assemblies overlap within the horn? Yes there would have to be.

Does the collective HF system create a single source? No.

Are they still an incredible, useful product? Yes, and right now the large arena market appears to agree with me.

Now to start construction on my 3,000 cap club utilizing SH96ho's and dbh218lc. A center hang of 3 SH46HO's would be nice (hint hint:roll.

Extra characters to make the editing feature happy.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: tall skinny speakers

What you are describing is how the high frequency sections of all the "line arrays" I have used work. The pattern control through cancellation is in the lower frequencies where the wavelengths are long. High frequencies are in very narrow vertical pattern horns or waveguides.

The paraline plate is an interesting take on pattern control and matching time arrivals across the face of it, but an array of them is still an array where you are hearing the same kind of multiple arrivals that you do in any "line array". as you often point out, physics isn't a fad.

Mac

I would disagree-to a point.

The SBH10 is intended as a SINGLE use cabinet. If you stack them-the results are not the same-so you cannot add or subtract boxes as you can with "other" typical products.

Because of the different sized paraline lens-the sum of the individual units make the total cabinet.

If you need a different pattern-you have to go to a different box.

Now you could use 1 for the main floor and 1 for the balcony-but not 2 for the main floor stacked.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: tall skinny speakers

Exactly.

There are no pro "line arrays" that I know of that utilize line array principles in the high band. The paraline likely does a better job of managing path length and creating a smooth polar response as well as the fixed position within the cabinet, but it is not so perfect that the adjacent assemblies don't interfere where their patterns overlap (i.e. lobing).

I'm not saying that it isn't an acceptable compromise to get the level required with current driver technology, but let's not kid our selves and call it a single source.

I have no doubts that it performs better than a dozen hf waveguides with fixed dispersion angels with varying degrees of splay between boxes (i.e. 12 box "line array" hang), but it could basically be equated to an array of fixed dispersion waveguides with a fixed splay angle all feeding a horn.

I'm absolutely positive that the Jericho horns perform better than an array hang of 12 or more boxes, but it doesn't take much examination of the frequency response and polar plots to see that the smaller boxes are able to maintain a flatter more uniform response due to all of the drivers being acoustically close.

Again, my favorite box you guys make right now (in theory, I haven't heard it) is the SH96HO. It sure seems like it could a mini jericho box with all the benefits of the synergy principles. The frequency response appears killer in bi-amped mode. P.S. Ivan do you have a phase trace for the bi-amped version?

In closing, do these new Danley products utilizing multiple paraline assemblies create pattern control with cancellation? No

Is there some negative interference and lobing where the multiple assemblies overlap within the horn? Yes there would have to be.

Does the collective HF system create a single source? No.

Are they still an incredible, useful product? Yes, and right now the large arena market appears to agree with me.

Now to start construction on my 3,000 cap club utilizing SH96ho's and dbh218lc. A center hang of 3 SH46HO's would be nice (hint hint:roll.

I would disagree with the statement of 12 smaller boxes providing a more uniform coverage pattern. It is exactly the reason that the Jerichos came into existence.

When you start to array boxes horizontally and vertically you start to have all sorts of interference patterns at different freq.

BTW when was the last time you saw MEASURED arrays of multiple boxes? NOT predicted that has been "doctored". I am not aware of any. But then again there are a lot of things I am not aware of-----------------

Danley publishes MEASURED data of multiple boxes. I am not aware of any other manufactures that do this. Please enlighten me if I am wrong.

Having listened to many Jerichos in large facilities (and small), there is no way a number of smaller boxes could provide the same smooth coverage.

I don't remember (I appologize if I did) saying that the SBH10 performed as a single source of sound-but rather that it performs like a horn-rather than a set of stacked devices.

 

[Brandon Wright]

Re: tall skinny speakers

I would disagree with the statement of 12 smaller boxes providing a more uniform coverage pattern. It is exactly the reason that the Jerichos came into existence.

When you start to array boxes horizontally and vertically you start to have all sorts of interference patterns at different freq.

BTW when was the last time you saw MEASURED arrays of multiple boxes? NOT predicted that has been "doctored". I am not aware of any. But then again there are a lot of things I am not aware of-----------------

Danley publishes MEASURED data of multiple boxes. I am not aware of any other manufactures that do this. Please enlighten me if I am wrong.

Having listened to many Jerichos in large facilities (and small), there is no way a number of smaller boxes could provide the same smooth coverage.

Ivan, I think you misread what I said (or I mis-typed what I meant) . I agree one hundred percent. The Jericho is better than an array of many different boxes. Having measured "hangs," it produces a very ugly picture. What I said is that the Jericho can't reproduce the performance of a single box where all of the sources are acoustically close (contains a single high driver).

I don't remember (I appologize if I did) saying that the SBH10 performed as a single source of sound-but rather that it performs like a horn-rather than a set of stacked devices.

And I'm saying that the SBH10 (and all of the Jericho family for that matter) acts like a set of stacked horns and not a single horn (at least in the high frequencies where the vertical displacement between drivers/paraline assemblies is acoustically large).

 

[Glenn Adams]

Re: tall skinny speakers

ok Ivan. You have proved me no rocket scientist but whereas I love this design I am unsure about this one thing.

Why wouldn't the big horn suffer a similar timing issue that a multi driver line array does?
follow me for a second, I am not referring to the comb filtering and cancelations that a line of front loaded drivers has, even if small closely spaced.

the thing is 60 inches tall , the sound in the video is shown exiting in time across the element like it were a stream of light.
each beam on the horizontal line to its target.
if someone were standing in front of it would they hear only the sound from the beam at that level and not the timing changes of the sound 1, 2, 4, 8, or 30 inches above and below this point?

if you are seated in front of one 8 feet away the top is how far away? You are the math wiz so I let it to you to work the triangulation out. Just saying.