TC Group / Music Group Anger Fest and Rumor Mill

Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Louis Ismael said:
I heard they are consolidating distributors and rep firms all over world. When they aquired midas turbosound historically each had own distributor and now they are moving to one in each country, also in US they do same and consolidate. my friend told me they hired big Alan Geer rep firm in california which is also Shure rep. I dont think Uli has enough money to buy TC group... i read somewhere that value is 170 million dollars. I think Yamaha will buy or maybe Shure... TC group has very good brands
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Uli can buy it if he wants. Whether or not he should (financially speaking) is an entirely different question.
 
Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Good point Max... but still 170 million is huge money. how big is Music group? they just build 100 million new factory in china. Looking at the TC brands and they fit very well to MG. Lab Gruppen would be perfect for Midas and Turbosound which is touring and Tannoy really famous for install. TC electronics and Bugera is also good match.But again i don't think Uli can afford. My bet is Yamaha who has bought Nexo, Line6... Really interesting and big news when decided :-)
 
Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Harry Brill Jr. said:
Build a company by ripping off a bunch of other manufacturers ip. Build the lowest quality cheapest music store crap for 20 years then start buying the best brands to gain credibility meanwhile taking the guts out and replacing with junk parts. Yea. Good idea. Not one dime of my money ever.
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Bill this is bold statement... 'taking guts out and replacing with junk parts'. can you be specific to support claim? all I know is that MG has invested much and now they are doing very well. Midas also hire many people and quality is good. Not wanting a flame war here but I don't understand such statements...
 
Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Louis, its a well known fact that Music Group/Behringer was sued several times in both U.S. and European court for blatant copy right and IP infringement. They also were fined by the FCC for not properly certifying their electrical and RF compliance on a couple of different products.

Until the X line of mixers all they did was copy other people's designs and just change the color scheme.

Music Group is the fast food of pro (and I use that term loosely) audio manufacturers. And now that Uli has made a bunch of money by stealing other company's designs they have decided that they will just buy up whomever they want to copy instead of coming up with their own designs.
 
Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Justice C. Bigler said:
Louis, its a well known fact that Music Group/Behringer was sued several times in both U.S. and European court for blatant copy right and IP infringement. They also were fined by the FCC for not properly certifying their electrical and RF compliance on a couple of different products. Until the X line of mixers all they did was copy other people's designs and just change the color scheme. Music Group is the fast food of pro (and I use that term loosely) audio manufacturers. And now that Uli has made a bunch of money by stealing other company's designs they have decided that they will just buy up whomever they want to copy instead of coming up with their own designs.
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Justice, with respect this is not answer to my question... i asked what "junk parts are used". if people make claims they need to provide evidence, no? if you claim strong word 'stealing' you must provide evidence... i am surprised about so much emotion and little fact. being sued is not mean you are guilty, right. which lawsuits MG has lost? can you tell me? from what i read before behringer/ MG has not lost any lawsuit expect one 25 years ago. many company are sued every day and this is business. with FCC many companies have paid FCC penalty and you can find here... http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/marketing/ (Peavey, Rane, Gallien Kruger, Fender, Presonus, Loud, Sennheiser, Marshall, any many other)... i do not work for MG but i believe in professional forum people must respond in responsible way... sorry just my opinin.
 
Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Louis Ismael said:
Justice, with respect this is not answer to my question... i asked what "junk
ts are used". if people make claims they need to provide evidence, no? if you claim strong word 'stealing' you must provide evidence... i am surprised about so much emotion and little fact. being sued is not mean you are guilty, right. which lawsuits MG has lost? can you tell me? from what i read before behringer/ MG has not lost any lawsuit expect one 25 years ago. many company are sued every day and this is business. with FCC many companies have paid FCC penalty and you can find here... http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/marketing/ (Peavey, Rane, Gallien Kruger, Fender, Presonus, Loud, Sennheiser, Marshall, any many other)... i do not work for MG but i believe in professional forum people must respond in responsible way... sorry just my opinin.
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Justice is designing a large outdoor facility and be doesn't want to send any of those funds to Music Group. He's the designer and can spec whatever brands for whatever reasons. Harry's assertion that MG substituted inferior parts in products that were under design when the parent company was purchased is one that needs documentation...

That said, while I'd like to see Yamaha make the buy my understanding is that Yammy is not doing so. TC has not performed well for several years and the sale price is likely well under $170m.
 
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Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Harry Brill Jr. said:
Build a company by ripping off a bunch of other manufacturers ip. Build the lowest quality cheapest music store crap for 20 years then start buying the best brands to gain credibility meanwhile taking the guts out and replacing with junk parts. Yea. Good idea. Not one dime of my money ever.
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In case i haven't mentioned this before, I really hate defending Behringer but your rant is a little hyperbolic, and most all of those criticisms have been well explored.

I won't address the IP issue since that has been litigated by courts as well as argued here ad nauseum in another thread, and I am weary of that circular argument (not proved illegal so must be OK).

The success of Behringer is due to giving the customers what they wanted and they were well rewarded with sales and growth. It is natural for large successful value brands to purchase smaller premium brands when they run out of growth in their primary business. The trajectory of those smaller brands is generally toward the value side but not completely or what is the point of supporting multiple brands? This too has been well explored.

Finally using junk parts (whatever that means) seems illogical. The business calculus of using inferior parts never makes sense, while a successful value engineering bias will discourage leaving money on the table, inside products, that customers do not see or appreciate.

It is possible to agree with this sentiment, while not agreeing with the literal statement, but our industry is growing more mature just like consumer hifi, hardware stores, etc... So things will continue to evolve and pissing into the wind only makes a mess.

JR
 
Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

I work for a company that has both pre- and post-MG Flex array in their inventory, I don't think anyone can differentiate the two without thorough investigation.


Sent from my iPhone
 
Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

John Roberts said:
In case i haven't mentioned this before, I really hate defending Behringer but your rant is a little hyperbolic, and most all of those criticisms have been well explored.

I won't address the IP issue since that has been litigated by courts as well as argued here ad nauseum in another thread, and I am weary of that circular argument (not proved illegal so must be OK).

The success of Behringer is due to giving the customers what they wanted and they were well rewarded with sales and growth. It is natural for large successful value brands to purchase smaller premium brands when they run out of growth in their primary business. The trajectory of those smaller brands is generally toward the value side but not completely or what is the point of supporting multiple brands? This too has been well explored.

Finally using junk parts (whatever that means) seems illogical. The business calculus of using inferior parts never makes sense, while a successful value engineering bias will discourage leaving money on the table, inside products, that customers do not see or appreciate.

It is possible to agree with this sentiment, while not agreeing with the literal statement, but our industry is growing more mature just like consumer hifi, hardware stores, etc... So things will continue to evolve and pissing into the wind only makes a mess.

JR
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This issue seems parallel to the apparent devaluing of the music business, etc...etc. Thing is, nothing is going to change, so just as in SO many 'arguments' today the 'pissing into the wind' comment is perfectly appropriate. I have a lot of political 'friends' that I have recently unfollowed because of their constant rant against not only unchangable situations, but situations that most people don't want to change....they have more personal and subjectively 'bigger' fish to fry. Hating the way it is a freedom...do it if you like...I am heating up my frying pan.
 
Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Justice C. Bigler said:
Louis, its a well known fact that Music Group/Behringer was sued several times in both U.S. and European court for blatant copy right and IP infringement. They also were fined by the FCC for not properly certifying their electrical and RF compliance on a couple of different products.

Until the X line of mixers all they did was copy other people's designs and just change the color scheme.

Music Group is the fast food of pro (and I use that term loosely) audio manufacturers. And now that Uli has made a bunch of money by stealing other company's designs they have decided that they will just buy up whomever they want to copy instead of coming up with their own designs.
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Gee, look how many Neumann knock offs and boutique shop mics there are, trying to be the U47. Look how many companies knock off API, Neve, Trident and other preamps and EQs. Look at how many SSL compressor knock offs there are. Look at all of the plug-ins, ripping off analog tape machines, delays, reverbs, EQs, preamps and now microphone modeling. Look at Kemper and others ripping off guitar amplifier sounds. It's everywhere.
 
Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Brent Handy said:
Gee, look how many Neumann knock offs and boutique shop mics there are, trying to be the U47. Look how many companies knock off API, Neve, Trident and other preamps and EQs. Look at how many SSL compressor knock offs there are. Look at all of the plug-ins, ripping off analog tape machines, delays, reverbs, EQs, preamps and now microphone modeling. Look at Kemper and others ripping off guitar amplifier sounds. It's everywhere.
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Just because everyone is doing it makes it ok?
 
Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Tim McCulloch said:
Harry's assertion that MG substituted inferior parts in products that were under design when the parent company was purchased is one that needs documentation...
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I was told by someone that shall remain nameless there was a very good reason they were able to drop the price of Pro 2 so much a while back. The folks that were angry on this forum after paying a higher price should be thankful they have the real thing. Many of you know this person to be a very reliable source and that's all I'm saying about that.

25 years ago was just a blink of an eye. There's an old saying, once a cheater, always a cheater.

https://soundforums.net/content/2265?page=

https://soundforums.net/archive/index.php?t-9126-p-2.html

Now a build quality less than previous or as I call it Junk, may well be a matter of opinion but this entire industry and any other consumer industry is based on opinion. Standards have dropped very low in my lifetime.
 
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Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

John Roberts said:
.... our industry is growing more mature just like consumer hifi, hardware stores, etc...

JR
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Just like Bain Capital "unlocked the hidden value" of Guitar Center. (That hidden value includes burning employees, landlords, and manufacturers).

For all the dissenters out there - Welcome to "Free" market capitalism.

Get over it or change it.
 
Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Jim McKeveny said:
Just like Bain Capital "unlocked the hidden value" of Guitar Center. (That hidden value includes burning employees, landlords, and manufacturers).

For all the dissenters out there - Welcome to "Free" market capitalism.

Get over it or change it.
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IMO the latest chapter in the GC story is not about Free market capitalism, but the unintended consequences of central banks flooding the economy with excessive liquidity. While they are arguably printing money (actually buying debt) as fast as they can to prevent a deflationary spiral, like Japan experienced in the '90s and still hasn't recovered from. The Japan story is an over simplification with compelling demographic complications (like aging low growth rate population).

The free market will eventually sort out the actual value of the GC franchise, after the fast money crowd get their ass handed to them, for paying to much for too little with too cheap money.

This (GC) is only indirectly related to the maturation of the music industry but in my judgement more related to central bank policy. Many hard assets are over valued now for the same reason, but this too will eventually work out. We are still waiting for the fed to reverse their zero interest rate policy in place since 2007-2008.... We will have to wait for that (interest rate) tide to go out to see who isn't wearing a bathing suit.

JR
 
Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Kinda agree.

We have central banks (plural) - US, UK, China, Eurozone, etc. - with their own conflicted/conflicting agendas.

We can agree that the USA zero-interest policy has distended the financial sector of the US economy beyond all common usefulness and recognition, and we now have too many dollars, in too few hands, chasing too few real opportunities......hence the bullying tactics of firms like Bain to see results. (I know I simplify the GC history here, a my peril).

The financial tail now wags the services and manufacturing dog, to receding benefit.
 
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Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Yes, central banks in europe and Japan have picked up QE (quantitative easing by buying their own sovereign debt) just as the US has begun unwinding it. QE seems to be somewhat fungible (transferrable) so the extra US liquidity put a slight bid under the entire international economy. Now that the US is winding down, the rest of the world is winding up to try to keep the easy money music playing.

This is new territory as central banks have never successfully pulled off such a grand experiment. The jury is still out on whether this experiment can be unwound without worse repercussions than the problem it tried to remedy. So far so good, but this is unwinding in painful slow motion and markets over react to any mention of raising interest rates, while everyone knows they are coming.

Good luck to us and the rest of the world since this could end very badly. There have already been massive distortions and displacement in the economy.

JR
 
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