TC Group / Music Group Anger Fest and Rumor Mill
- Thread starter Brent Handy
- Start date
Re: MG and IP theft
Boo! I wondered why Josh was going to Bose a few months ago.
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/09/on-behringers-track-record-value-and-copies/
http://homerecording.com/bbs/equipm...some-research-mackie-behringer-lawsuit-74439/
In regards to the dbx issue, that has been going around since almost the day I bought it. The sales guy said "just as good" but within a year, and this was pre internet for me, I was being told it was the same. You say it's not. I'm not an EE.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/low...autocom-mdx1200-same-circuitry-dbx-160-a.html But I'm not the one that came up with this.
In all I had 3 160X and 4 166 at the same time as the MDX1000. They all sold in about a week of being listed except the MDX1000 that is still in my garage. Of course now I wish I had them back.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.audio.pro.live-sound/_j4nf3kYHFQ
Lots of strong opinions out there. No wonder they change the name to music group. I honestly had no idea it was the same company until I read it here. I don't generally stay in those loops.
I thought they took manufacturing to China initially because they were so good at copying and have no moral issues with it in their society, it's considered making it better. Cheap labor was just a bonus. I don't even blame the Chinese because they really don't know any better. It really is a part of the culture and considered a good thing.
How about telling us about those failure rates, rates of repair.
I have a buddy who is auth service for B, and he says they make the customer send in the stuff, then he spends all kinds of time troubleshooting, then B just replaces the entire unit and he gets little to nothing for his time spent. This is mainly because they can't get him parts fast enough and the clients complain about the time it's taking for the turn around. Besides that they pay a flat rate. I don't know why he bothers. I think he is transitioning out gradually. He deals with MI lines though.
John, Peavey has been a huge "borrower" for decades. I can understand why you are defensive. The Impulse is the first thing that comes to my mind. A direct ripoff of EV's SX100. Fortunately they also had a few guys like you inventing stuff on a regular basis. The DDT comes to mind (iirc).
You may think it's OK to "borrow" Dan's designs, but for some reason Waves/ Digico, and Yamaha feel it's worth paying homage.
No one is disputing whether the Midas branded or the X32 sounds good. By many many accounts they do sound good and do a job for the people that use them. I found the x32 to be very limited in capability which I'm sure fits the price. I think Justice and I only said we aren't spending our money there for many reasons, not the least of which are I'm not going to forget the past just because you tell me to.
Like I said, i was told the build quality of the new and cheaper priced Pro was not as good as the pre purchase quality. Does this really shock anyone? You take manufacturing from a UK based company into China and you expect it to be as good? It could be simple like the gauge of the metal or even the batch of metal. What is the failure rate pre and post? That's all I'm asking. By Failure I mean the need for factory service whether it be sending out parts or taking units in for repair.
I do think it's great that you guys let me post my opinion on your site though. It won't take that feeling of eew away when I see that gear in the wild. I have had that thought since the mid 1990s. When I ask those Pro 6 guys how they like their Behringer desk, they get very angry and defensive. The stigma is alive and well even if they are using the Midas branded gear. Well I hate to tell them but the name badge is just that. Do you think any of those guys are going to tell you how they really feel? Those that know me know I don't BS. Everyone pussyfoots around but they are all thinking he same as me. Only folks invested with their wallets, that want to see an ROI are defending. Justice has a big mouth just like me. He's one of the few guys I know that also says whatever he thinks regardless of what people might think or say because it's what he believes. We are entitled to our opinions and no babies will die so get over it.
Mr Behringer should buy my company. I'll sell out for $1,000,000. I'll even tell you all about my inventions google tells me someone else already invented. Of course I have no product. I just mix and pay taxes.
I don't really understand the title of this thread. Is someone angry?
Boo! I wondered why Josh was going to Bose a few months ago.
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/09/on-behringers-track-record-value-and-copies/
http://homerecording.com/bbs/equipm...some-research-mackie-behringer-lawsuit-74439/
In regards to the dbx issue, that has been going around since almost the day I bought it. The sales guy said "just as good" but within a year, and this was pre internet for me, I was being told it was the same. You say it's not. I'm not an EE.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/low...autocom-mdx1200-same-circuitry-dbx-160-a.html But I'm not the one that came up with this.
In all I had 3 160X and 4 166 at the same time as the MDX1000. They all sold in about a week of being listed except the MDX1000 that is still in my garage. Of course now I wish I had them back.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.audio.pro.live-sound/_j4nf3kYHFQ
Lots of strong opinions out there. No wonder they change the name to music group. I honestly had no idea it was the same company until I read it here. I don't generally stay in those loops.
I thought they took manufacturing to China initially because they were so good at copying and have no moral issues with it in their society, it's considered making it better. Cheap labor was just a bonus. I don't even blame the Chinese because they really don't know any better. It really is a part of the culture and considered a good thing.
How about telling us about those failure rates, rates of repair.
I have a buddy who is auth service for B, and he says they make the customer send in the stuff, then he spends all kinds of time troubleshooting, then B just replaces the entire unit and he gets little to nothing for his time spent. This is mainly because they can't get him parts fast enough and the clients complain about the time it's taking for the turn around. Besides that they pay a flat rate. I don't know why he bothers. I think he is transitioning out gradually. He deals with MI lines though.
John, Peavey has been a huge "borrower" for decades. I can understand why you are defensive. The Impulse is the first thing that comes to my mind. A direct ripoff of EV's SX100. Fortunately they also had a few guys like you inventing stuff on a regular basis. The DDT comes to mind (iirc).
You may think it's OK to "borrow" Dan's designs, but for some reason Waves/ Digico, and Yamaha feel it's worth paying homage.
No one is disputing whether the Midas branded or the X32 sounds good. By many many accounts they do sound good and do a job for the people that use them. I found the x32 to be very limited in capability which I'm sure fits the price. I think Justice and I only said we aren't spending our money there for many reasons, not the least of which are I'm not going to forget the past just because you tell me to.
Like I said, i was told the build quality of the new and cheaper priced Pro was not as good as the pre purchase quality. Does this really shock anyone? You take manufacturing from a UK based company into China and you expect it to be as good? It could be simple like the gauge of the metal or even the batch of metal. What is the failure rate pre and post? That's all I'm asking. By Failure I mean the need for factory service whether it be sending out parts or taking units in for repair.
I do think it's great that you guys let me post my opinion on your site though. It won't take that feeling of eew away when I see that gear in the wild. I have had that thought since the mid 1990s. When I ask those Pro 6 guys how they like their Behringer desk, they get very angry and defensive. The stigma is alive and well even if they are using the Midas branded gear. Well I hate to tell them but the name badge is just that. Do you think any of those guys are going to tell you how they really feel? Those that know me know I don't BS. Everyone pussyfoots around but they are all thinking he same as me. Only folks invested with their wallets, that want to see an ROI are defending. Justice has a big mouth just like me. He's one of the few guys I know that also says whatever he thinks regardless of what people might think or say because it's what he believes. We are entitled to our opinions and no babies will die so get over it.
Mr Behringer should buy my company. I'll sell out for $1,000,000. I'll even tell you all about my inventions google tells me someone else already invented. Of course I have no product. I just mix and pay taxes.
I don't really understand the title of this thread. Is someone angry?
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Re: MG and IP theft
Having a bad day Harry? Your post cracked me up - time for some anger management classes and an Anvil my friend
Having a bad day Harry? Your post cracked me up - time for some anger management classes and an Anvil my friend
Re: MG and IP theft
Ok, I have to say, you obviously are not in sales, service or installation, because saying Peavey has been ripping people off for decades is NOT correct. The EV and PV boxes are not identical, are not even constructed the same way (the Peavey is a much, MUCH, bigger PITA to service), they do not sound the same or have the same driver technology. The EVs hold up much better as well. If they were exact copies, there would be little difference.
From my perspective, Peavey releases, or has released, cool technology and trade shows, and other companies have copied the concept and beat them to market with it. Case in point, Peavey IPR amps. Heck, they were in to their IPR2 version before they started shipping the whole line. We had amps on order for three years before they shipped. The ones that did show up arrived without lids, did not work, etc. Meanwhile, Crown and others began shipping their lightweight technology amps. If anything, Peavey is copied more than it borrows.
That said, there have been former JBL and EV speaker designers working for Peavey. The industry is small. There might be similarities or evolutions of previous designs of work they did with other manufacturers. It happens.
Ok, I have to say, you obviously are not in sales, service or installation, because saying Peavey has been ripping people off for decades is NOT correct. The EV and PV boxes are not identical, are not even constructed the same way (the Peavey is a much, MUCH, bigger PITA to service), they do not sound the same or have the same driver technology. The EVs hold up much better as well. If they were exact copies, there would be little difference.
From my perspective, Peavey releases, or has released, cool technology and trade shows, and other companies have copied the concept and beat them to market with it. Case in point, Peavey IPR amps. Heck, they were in to their IPR2 version before they started shipping the whole line. We had amps on order for three years before they shipped. The ones that did show up arrived without lids, did not work, etc. Meanwhile, Crown and others began shipping their lightweight technology amps. If anything, Peavey is copied more than it borrows.
That said, there have been former JBL and EV speaker designers working for Peavey. The industry is small. There might be similarities or evolutions of previous designs of work they did with other manufacturers. It happens.
Re: MG and IP theft
I speak my mind and at the price point the X32 was the MOST capable digital desk available. It's way better than the cheap 200 series Roland desk that has been peddled to a few venues around here.
I speak my mind and at the price point the X32 was the MOST capable digital desk available. It's way better than the cheap 200 series Roland desk that has been peddled to a few venues around here.
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Re: MG and IP theft
For premium high end products extra robustness is engineered in, but this is a feature that customer's pay extra for, not an indication of product quality.
I suspect paying homage to Dan is good marketing. Before I did the Peavey AM design, I approached Dan at a trade show and asked him for some ammunition to use to argue for licensing "free" technology from him. I knew Hartley didn't reach his level of success paying for free technology. Dan replied something to the effect, that he alone knew how to design an AM properly. That sounded like a challenge to me. I was hoping he would have some other patents up his sleeve that would make partnering with him justifiable to my boss, but he didn't go there. Maybe I caught him on a bad booth day, but he made it way too easy to not work with him.
JR
Interesting viewpoint... I tiny shred of truth about Chinese culture, but cost is the dominant reason for manufacturing there. Further as has already been shared, there are so many component manufacturers based there, manufacturing lead times can be shorter (a good thing). That said I don't think anybody considers Chinese as ignorant or innocent. Their culture is much older than ours.
I still dislike defending Behringer, but simple math suggests anything other than industry norm failure rates would be a company killer. Think about it.
For premium high end products extra robustness is engineered in, but this is a feature that customer's pay extra for, not an indication of product quality.
In the very competitive value market segment, everybody studies everybody else to minimize competitive advantages. In my experience Peavey has been copied more than is a copier but this is probably a subjective call. I was not the only engineer doing novel design and Peavey holds something like 100 patents or more.
It is not only OK but the basis of the patent system. The inventor is given exclusive use for X years in exchange for publishing the technology, so others can learn from that. After that exclusive period runs out, it becomes public domain and everybody else is free to use it. That said it can be damn irritating and lead to costly lawsuits when competitors don't wait for IP to expire, and those lawsuits are not always won. :-(
I suspect paying homage to Dan is good marketing. Before I did the Peavey AM design, I approached Dan at a trade show and asked him for some ammunition to use to argue for licensing "free" technology from him. I knew Hartley didn't reach his level of success paying for free technology. Dan replied something to the effect, that he alone knew how to design an AM properly. That sounded like a challenge to me. I was hoping he would have some other patents up his sleeve that would make partnering with him justifiable to my boss, but he didn't go there. Maybe I caught him on a bad booth day, but he made it way too easy to not work with him.
At least your posts are entertaining....
JR
Re: MG and IP theft
All personal feelings aside, purchasing from a brand that may go through restructuring, growing pains, or other significant changes between when you specify the equipment and when it actually gets installed might be a risky move anyway.
Jason
All personal feelings aside, purchasing from a brand that may go through restructuring, growing pains, or other significant changes between when you specify the equipment and when it actually gets installed might be a risky move anyway.
Jason
Re: MG and IP theft
On a brighter note, Maybe someone will finally update the Horrible user interface that is Lake control. Don't get me wrong I think that lake processing is awesome, but it would be so much better if it didn't take 100 button clicks and 2 hours to make a new preset in their god awful software.
On a brighter note, Maybe someone will finally update the Horrible user interface that is Lake control. Don't get me wrong I think that lake processing is awesome, but it would be so much better if it didn't take 100 button clicks and 2 hours to make a new preset in their god awful software.
Re: MG and IP theft
Better UI, half price, with the same components would make the PLM and D series amps attractive. I heard rumor that their #1 complaint is the UI.
Re: MG and IP theft
+1
i was amazed when i used a Lake Processor recently to discover that the software remained largely unchanged from when i had previously used a Lake Processor more than 10 years ago. Just awful non-intuitive GUI. I had of course forgotten all the stupid strange ways to do things and had to be taught all over again by a colleague.
+1
i was amazed when i used a Lake Processor recently to discover that the software remained largely unchanged from when i had previously used a Lake Processor more than 10 years ago. Just awful non-intuitive GUI. I had of course forgotten all the stupid strange ways to do things and had to be taught all over again by a colleague.
Re: MG and IP theft
I beg to differ. It's not perfect but most powerful tools have an initial learning curve and take some ongoing use to maintain competency. As for the overall UI, when I first used it with a mouse, I hated it. When I switched to a real tablet, everything fell into place and I found it fast. The only think that annoys me is navigating directories and browsing for files.
I beg to differ. It's not perfect but most powerful tools have an initial learning curve and take some ongoing use to maintain competency. As for the overall UI, when I first used it with a mouse, I hated it. When I switched to a real tablet, everything fell into place and I found it fast. The only think that annoys me is navigating directories and browsing for files.
Re: MG and IP theft
I am not the least bit angry or even passionate. Just bored.... funny to see how people get wound up.
Finally somebody gets it! Thanks JR. I still need my loftech fixed btw.
Hey I thought I was the only one that couldn't stand the lake UI.
Having a bad day Harry? Your post cracked me up - time for some anger management classes and an Anvil my friend
I am not the least bit angry or even passionate. Just bored.... funny to see how people get wound up.
At least your posts are entertaining....
JR
Finally somebody gets it! Thanks JR. I still need my loftech fixed btw.
Hey I thought I was the only one that couldn't stand the lake UI.
Re: TC Group / Music Group Anger Fest and Rumor Mill
Re the UI, yes there's a lot if button pressing to create modules, presets etc… but that's all stuff you do either in the shop, or once per speaker box but ahead of the gig in any case. Once onsite, the UI comes into its own when Sys-enging a large multi zone PA. There's nothing as elegant in my opinion.
BE wants a dip in the mids? 4 flicks of the wrist, entire PA follows suit.
Of course, it is written for a tablet… if I had to use a mouse, I'd go stir-crazy.
Re the UI, yes there's a lot if button pressing to create modules, presets etc… but that's all stuff you do either in the shop, or once per speaker box but ahead of the gig in any case. Once onsite, the UI comes into its own when Sys-enging a large multi zone PA. There's nothing as elegant in my opinion.
BE wants a dip in the mids? 4 flicks of the wrist, entire PA follows suit.
Of course, it is written for a tablet… if I had to use a mouse, I'd go stir-crazy.
Re: MG and IP theft
Hey! I placed a deposit at LaSalle Music in Hartford, CT early eighties on a LOFT crossover with Passband Limiting and front-panel screwdriver adjustment!! Gadzooks! How advanced!(This is pre-BSS).
It never made production....
Hey! I placed a deposit at LaSalle Music in Hartford, CT early eighties on a LOFT crossover with Passband Limiting and front-panel screwdriver adjustment!! Gadzooks! How advanced!(This is pre-BSS).
It never made production....
Re: MG and IP theft
I don't remember ever talking about a crossover with limiting built in. All of the LOFT crossovers used front panel screwdriver adjustments, and we also sold a stand alone 1U 4-channel Noise Gate/Limiter that could be used in combination with any of our crossovers.
Jeff at LaSalle was one of my partners at LOFT (actually Phoenix Audio Lab) so maybe he wanted to sell one, but never convinced the rest of us to make one. Those LOFT crossovers were decent for back then (switchable between 3-pole Butterworth and 4-pole Linkwitz-Riley). I used the recessed controls to discourage sound system operators from changing crossover points too casually.
JR
I don't remember ever talking about a crossover with limiting built in. All of the LOFT crossovers used front panel screwdriver adjustments, and we also sold a stand alone 1U 4-channel Noise Gate/Limiter that could be used in combination with any of our crossovers.
Jeff at LaSalle was one of my partners at LOFT (actually Phoenix Audio Lab) so maybe he wanted to sell one, but never convinced the rest of us to make one. Those LOFT crossovers were decent for back then (switchable between 3-pole Butterworth and 4-pole Linkwitz-Riley). I used the recessed controls to discourage sound system operators from changing crossover points too casually.
JR
Re: MG and IP theft
[edit] FWIW one of my old employees from Loftech days has a repair service outside Hartford, CT... He "might" be able to fix it if it's something simple. Larry Smetana at AccuTech Audio 860-290-8979. He charges $80/hr so maybe look for a smart phone app. [/edit]
I have never tried to use one, but I have experienced digital products where the digital software designers were better with algorithms than user interfaces. After a product is in the can it may be a major project to re-engineer the interface, especially if the software engineer is no longer available. It can be difficult to tweak someone else's code. I don't even like tweaking my own after a few years.
JR
I have two TS-1s sitting around and one of them is broken....:-( Some of the parts in there are no longer made or could be hard to get. I'd love to design a modern TS-1 using digital technology but it's against my religion to design any product that could be replaced by a smart phone app.
[edit] FWIW one of my old employees from Loftech days has a repair service outside Hartford, CT... He "might" be able to fix it if it's something simple. Larry Smetana at AccuTech Audio 860-290-8979. He charges $80/hr so maybe look for a smart phone app.
[/edit]I have never tried to use one, but I have experienced digital products where the digital software designers were better with algorithms than user interfaces. After a product is in the can it may be a major project to re-engineer the interface, especially if the software engineer is no longer available. It can be difficult to tweak someone else's code. I don't even like tweaking my own after a few years.
JR
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Re: MG and IP theft
I guess that explains why the DBX Driverack is such a pleasure!��I have two TS-1s sitting around and one of them is broken....:-( Some of the parts in there are no longer made or could be hard to get. I'd love to design a modern TS-1 using digital technology but it's against my religion to design any product that could be replaced by a smart phone app.
I have never tried to use one, but I have experienced digital products where the digital software designers were better with algorithms than user interfaces. After a product is in the can it may be a major project to re-engineer the interface, especially if the software engineer is no longer available. It can be difficult to tweak someone else's code. I don't even like tweaking my own after a few years.
JR
Re: MG and IP theft
While i agree that the older versions left a little to be desired the drive rack PA2 and the Venue 360 look like they have decent control software UIs. I am not saying that they are better under the hood than lake by any means but take a look at this video, I think i could figure out this software within minutes of looking at it and be able to make a preset pretty quick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5o_WhipTlY
Luke
While i agree that the older versions left a little to be desired the drive rack PA2 and the Venue 360 look like they have decent control software UIs. I am not saying that they are better under the hood than lake by any means but take a look at this video, I think i could figure out this software within minutes of looking at it and be able to make a preset pretty quick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5o_WhipTlY
Luke