TC Group / Music Group Anger Fest and Rumor Mill

[Al Walker]

Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Dear Harry,

In the spirit of openness, we would appreciate if could you please identify exactly which parts have been allegedly changed for lower quality and which source this comes from?

Respectfully, it is always easy to make claims in anonymity, but we feel that an open exchange would give us a fair chance to provide the facts about our operation. I would hope you appreciate our desire for an open and honest discussion.

How were we able to reduce the price of PRO2 and many of our other products? The acquisition by Music Group brought benefits in both directions, and speaking from the perspective of Midas, we were able to benefit from the highly developed sourcing process that Music Group operates, which offered us not only a massive step change in the scale of economy in component procurement, but also the knowledge to buy from the original sources, rather than going through several layers of distribution, each in turn making their own margin. We're also no longer paying third party contract manufacturers to assemble our products, and not paying their associated overheads was an added cost saving to the other benefits of achieving total control of the production process

I have been with Midas for close to 20 years and I am currently based in our Midas China facility which is managed by British engineers, some of which have been working with us for ten years and more. I can honestly say that the investments that have been made by Music Group both on the engineering as well as the manufacturing side are way beyond anything that Midas has ever seen in its entire history.

When Music Group took over Midas, the company was in a very dire position, and today we’re doing very well and rolling out innovative products such as PRO X digital console and its NEUTRON signal processing engine. Since the acquisition, the revenue of Midas has increased close to six-fold and all profits are continuously reinvested. The Midas engineering team has grown from 8 to 80 people in Manchester with additional 12 job openings. I encourage you visit us both in our Manchester and also in China facility so we can show you an operation we are very proud of.

If you have any further questions for Midas or Turbosound, please feel free to ask. My colleague Andy Pardoe who is in charge of Turbosound will be more than happy to respond as well.

Thank you.

Al Walker
Music Group

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Bennett, this is by far the best thread title I've seen in many years.

"Yes, I'd like to have an argument."

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Bennett, this is by far the best thread title I've seen in many years.

"Yes, I'd like to have an argument."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

 

[Dirk Martens]

Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

:x~:-x~

 

[Harry Brill Jr.]

Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Dear Harry,

Al Walker
Music Group

Al you have been there just long enough to see the last good products rolled out. I have a saying, my idea of good sound and your idea of good sound may not be the same. Same goes for quality. It's all relative.

Al I suggest you simply take pre and post units and open them up and take lots of pictures. Also please tell us the rate of service request change since the changes were made. Basically when you mention manufacturing and china to me in the same sentence you have lost already. I believe the lowest common denominator is not a goal we should strive to achieve. Why china? Why not Germany or UK, or USA, or France, or Italy?

To understand my pov, (I have no idea why you would care) you have to realize that I don't care about your profit margins, or units sold to the lowest common denominator. I only care about quality. If Midas was having problems before selling out, in my mind, they were caused by creating junk (Venice, Legend (Phew!!!), verona, etc. and gradually killing the brand. Just like when dbx felt they needed to compete with there own stolen designs and started making junk. Nothing really decent after the 166. Soundcraft went downhill rapidly with that whole spirit thing, then they started dumbing down the soundcraft line. It seems like manufacturers feel like they need to build a brand of quality up until it's considered premium, then gradually take it down the tubes for profit. Fender comes to mind. They have done this a few times. I have absolutely no financial connection to any of it so I don't mind stating my perception which seems to be more common than you realize. I really only see fanboys and people with a direct financial connection defending this guy, er empire.

Now I will say whoever designed the look of that M32, kudos, it looks sexy as hell. It's still a whore under all the makeup though.

While you are changing names, maybe change the name of this forum to what it really is.

It's tough to catch tone on the internet. I'm not mad. I'm just opinionated and stubborn. In fact I think this is all pretty funny as I kill time before doors. BTW other than the Venice in some small breakout rooms, I can't say that I have seen a Midas on a corpie show since the last time I used a Heritage 3000 in 2006. Yamaha owns the market. I don't recall seeing a midas in any church ever, but I did see DDA which by all accounts is what became all those low end Midas branded desks. You tell me. I see the Pro 6 on festivals and that's about it. Most of the band engineers seem to want digico and digidesign. I challenged you guys 2 or 3 years ago to convince me this X32 was something and had no takers. I have 1 client that purchased an M32 which I probably won't ever use, and when I discuss the lack of dugan interfacing, they tell me, behringer is going to just knock it off (copy for the rest of the world) in the software. Do you think that's OK?

I do own a piece of behringer gear. The Thoroughbred/ sam ash guy sold me a bill of goods when I walked in to buy dbx166s. I have an autocom 1000. Every other piece of gear I have been able to sell off. It's the only thing I have left from back then. No one wanted it. This was before the lawsuit. It worked fine, it's a dbx inside! The stuff was actually decent quality then too for a short window, then this eurodesks came out. I figured they were some sort of guitar effect because everything that you put through them was distorted.
In my mind you will NEVER recover from that until those of us that were around to hear it are all dead.

 

[Steve Payne]

Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

But Harry, how do you REALLY feel...

 

[Justice C. Bigler]

Re: MG and IP theft

As far as stolen designs, I'd just like to point to the Behringer X-Touch, which is a direct rip off of the Mackie Control units.

...Though maybe that's a bad example since so far it still seems to be vaporware 16 months after being announced at Winter NAMM 2014.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: MG and IP theft

As far as stolen designs, I'd just like to point to the Behringer X-Touch, which is a direct rip off of the Mackie Control units.

...Though maybe that's a bad example since so far it still seems to be vaporware 16 months after being announced at Winter NAMM 2014.

Words like "theft" and "stolen" suggests laws may have been broken. I expect Behringer to vigorously defend themselves against such claims. Prepare yourself for some lawyerly counter arguments in response.

The kinder, gentler, phrasing is they "borrowed" product ideas. This is not that unusual and generally not illegal.

JR

PS: Did I mention I hate defending them. While I support a free exchange of ideas and opinions. Many of us hold strong opinions about these subjects.

 

[John Chiara]

Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

I don't really disagree with your sentiments, but like so many social issues of the day...what are you gonna do about it? I gave up being a curmudgeon a while back with the music business because no matter how much we say things should be different...they aren't going to be. It seems like Midas, KT...etc...needed a way out or die. Like I tell local band members..you can hate the club owners all you like but if they close you have nothing. Bob Lefsetz has good perspectives on these kinds of things.

 

[Justice C. Bigler]

Re: MG and IP theft

The kinder, gentler, phrasing is they "borrowed" product ideas. This is not that unusual and generally not illegal.

Okay..so maybe they don't "steal" their designs....But like so many high school and college students, they just copied off of their friend's homework because they are too lazy and incompetent to do their own work. Or they just outright paid someone else to do it for them. :roll:

There is a wide gulf between the ethical standards of Communist China and the the rest of the free world.

Either way, I'm working on a $350 million project with maybe $4 million worth of pro audio gear that will not see any equipment from Music Group (or their newly acquired TC Group). I'm already in the process of respecing everything that would have been TC.

It is a truism of the free market economy that the marketplace will decide what brands, products and companies survive. Well, guess what? I AM the market place. I don't sell gear or represent manufacturers. I buy gear. I rent gear from production companies. I spec gear for new projects and remodels. And I choose to send my business to companies that I respect for the quality of their products and the way in which they conduct their business.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Dear Harry,

...British engineers, some of which have been working with us for ten years and more.

Thank you.

Al Walker
Music Group

Dear Al...

I would like to point out what I consider to be a "Freudian slip" in your post.

Engineers are people and as such should be referred to as "whom", not "which". "Which" refers to an object rather than a living, breathing being, although in the case of those which labor to justify the current trend in business "ethics" I think we might possibly make an exception.

You're welcome.

DR

 

[Luke Robinson]

Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Funny I have been finding at least on many of the riders that have come across my desk that the pro series is starting to come ahead of the SC48 more and more often. And to my ears, and those of many of others that I respect, the Pro series stuff is some of the best sounding there is on the market, Digico being the other, but at least as of this posting I can't buy a digico console for the same money....

Luke

 

[Geri O'Neil]

Re: New Yamaha TF series digital mixers

Dear Al...

I would like to point out what I consider to be a "Freudian slip" in your post.

Engineers are people and as such should be referred to as "whom", not "which". "Which" refers to an object rather than a living, breathing being, although in the case of those which labor to justify the current trend in business "ethics" I think we might possibly make an exception.

You're welcome.

DR

.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: MG and IP theft

Okay..so maybe they don't "steal" their designs....But like so many high school and college students, they just copied off of their friend's homework because they are too lazy and incompetent to do their own work. Or they just outright paid someone else to do it for them. :roll:

Some more vague condescending insults. I am not a fan (really not) but I respect what they have accomplished. Not only is borrowing fairly widely practiced, some business models don't even try to be first. Apple copied the apple watch from a dick tracy comic strip. The apple model is to take a product category and crush the competition with superior execution. One might characterize the Behringer model as taking product categories and crushing the competition on price. The X32 their landmark product is most notable not for being novel, but for crushing the price point.

There is a wide gulf between the ethical standards of Communist China and the the rest of the free world.

Indeed but I do not have any sense that Uli turned Chinese and surely is not communist. I don't wish to rehash past history. Such discussion can consume a lot of time and energy (been there done that). IMO our energy and effort is better spent on here and now, recent and future behavior.

Either way, I'm working on a $350 million project with maybe $4 million worth of pro audio gear that will not see any equipment from Music Group (or their newly acquired TC Group). I'm already in the process of respecing everything that would have been TC.

As is your prerogative. The customer is always right especially when buying stuff.

It is a truism of the free market economy that the marketplace will decide what brands, products and companies survive. Well, guess what? I AM the market place. I don't sell gear or represent manufacturers. I buy gear. I rent gear from production companies. I spec gear for new projects and remodels. And I choose to send my business to companies that I respect for the quality of their products and the way in which they conduct their business.

Yes, you pocketbook vote counts more than most, (and more than mine) but in high volume consumer markets our vote is easily drowned out by the thousands of newbies entering the market every year. Polishing the image of the premium brands requires more elbow grease.

I'd prefer to hear from high level corporate executives to answer actual technical questions, rather than arm wrestle with poster's opinions to defend a brand image. Regarding market perception for premium products that image is probably more important to them.

My only suggestion regarding your project, where you have good equivalent alternatives buy what makes you most comfortable, but don't pay too much, or forfeit useful features just to boycott Behringer. Do what makes sense for your project.

It's not like our industry is unique, this is a natural evolution of maturing markets for better (lower prices) and worse (less original thinking).

JR

 

[Arthur Skudra]

Re: MG and IP theft

Ok folks, time to interrupt this thread with some funny cat videos.....

https://youtu.be/tntOCGkgt98
https://youtu.be/sTX8qbOtPN8

 

[Spenser Hamilton]

Re: MG and IP theft

Ok folks, time to interrupt this thread with some funny cat videos.....

https://youtu.be/tntOCGkgt98
https://youtu.be/sTX8qbOtPN8

Thank you Art, that was a badly needed distraction.

Any chance I'll be getting "smaarter" this spring? The rumor mill has told me things might be coming together...

Edit: Guess I should have checked all the new threads first... Any coming to GTA area, or should I make the voyage to Montreal?

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: MG and IP theft

Harry, I've seen the Pro consoles with a mobile church as well as at an install around here. The mobile church had a Pro 3 and a little brother: the Pro 2C.

Gosh... if only I'd been born five years earlier.

 

[Al Walker]

Re: MG and IP theft

Al you have been there just long enough to see the last good products rolled out. I have a saying, my idea of good sound and your idea of good sound may not be the same. Same goes for quality. It's all relative.

Al I suggest you simply take pre and post units and open them up and take lots of pictures. Also please tell us the rate of service request change since the changes were made. Basically when you mention manufacturing and china to me in the same sentence you have lost already. I believe the lowest common denominator is not a goal we should strive to achieve. Why china? Why not Germany or UK, or USA, or France, or Italy?

Thanks, but I don’t need to take pictures as I see the consoles every day and I am directly involved in the design of Midas consoles, so given that I have access to the bills of materials, I feel I know rather more than most people about what components we use. Again, I invite you to provide any evidence that any inferior parts have been used which you claim and perhaps you might want to provide pictures and facts.

Modern electronic manufacturing is highly automated so the location is irrelevant to quality, which is driven by component selection, quality assurance testing and control of the production process. Historically, Chinese manufacturing was initially attractive because of the lower labour costs, but wages now are close to those of western countries, which has led to the widespread use of automated assembly to remain competitive. Music Group invests heavily in such equipment, including a state-of-the-art $20m manufacturing facility dedicated to digital console production in our existing factory and a $100m investment in our new purpose-built factory.

The reason why so much manufacturing takes place in China is because of the critical density of companies operating here, and the massive (and accelerating) investment in supporting infrastructure that has made the Pearl River Delta region, encompassing Shenzhen, Dongguan, Guangzhou, Zhongshan (where we are located) and Zhuhai, as well as Hong Kong and Macau, the largest concentration of manufacturing in the world. It's fair to describe this region as the manufacturing equivalent of Silicon Valley, and of course many famous companies headquartered there also do their manufacturing here for the same reasons as us. I would urge you to visit this part of the world to see for yourself, and of course you are very welcome to come to see us.

To understand my pov, (I have no idea why you would care) you have to realize that I don't care about your profit margins, or units sold to the lowest common denominator. I only care about quality. If Midas was having problems before selling out, in my mind, they were caused by creating junk (Venice, Legend (Phew!!!), verona, etc. and gradually killing the brand. Just like when dbx felt they needed to compete with there own stolen designs and started making junk. Nothing really decent after the 166. Soundcraft went downhill rapidly with that whole spirit thing, then they started dumbing down the soundcraft line. It seems like manufacturers feel like they need to build a brand of quality up until it's considered premium, then gradually take it down the tubes for profit. Fender comes to mind. They have done this a few times. I have absolutely no financial connection to any of it so I don't mind stating my perception which seems to be more common than you realize. I really only see fanboys and people with a direct financial connection defending this guy, er empire.

I would politely ask that you consider the number of high profile users of Midas XL8 and PRO Series digital consoles, people who have the budgets to afford the very best. I won't name-drop here, but you could look on the Internet for who our users are.

I have personally been through multiple corporate ownerships during my time with Midas, and have an insider's perspective on the reality of the situations we faced, often quite different to how they were perceived externally. Under both the Telex/EVI and Bosch ownerships, we were starved of investment and regularly had recruitment freezes so couldn't even hire people for very critical work - things definitely weren't so good in the 'old days'...

The situation under Music Group is very different as outlined in my previous post, and we are in a much better position today.

Now I will say whoever designed the look of that M32, kudos, it looks sexy as hell. It's still a whore under all the makeup though.

While you are changing names, maybe change the name of this forum to what it really is.

It's tough to catch tone on the internet. I'm not mad. I'm just opinionated and stubborn. In fact I think this is all pretty funny as I kill time before doors. BTW other than the Venice in some small breakout rooms, I can't say that I have seen a Midas on a corpie show since the last time I used a Heritage 3000 in 2006. Yamaha owns the market. I don't recall seeing a midas in any church ever, but I did see DDA which by all accounts is what became all those low end Midas branded desks. You tell me. I see the Pro 6 on festivals and that's about it. Most of the band engineers seem to want digico and digidesign. I challenged you guys 2 or 3 years ago to convince me this X32 was something and had no takers. I have 1 client that purchased an M32 which I probably won't ever use, and when I discuss the lack of dugan interfacing, they tell me, behringer is going to just knock it off (copy for the rest of the world) in the software. Do you think that's OK?

The Dugan patent has long expired and the design is in the public domain, so yes it is perfectly fine for anyone to use this technology. Please remember that the purpose of a patent is to publish a design for the benefit of all (so that the innovation is not lost to the world when the inventor passes on), with the inventor getting protection for a limited period of time in return for the disclosure of the invention.

I do own a piece of behringer gear. The Thoroughbred/ sam ash guy sold me a bill of goods when I walked in to buy dbx166s. I have an autocom 1000. Every other piece of gear I have been able to sell off. It's the only thing I have left from back then. No one wanted it. This was before the lawsuit. It worked fine, it's a dbx inside! The stuff was actually decent quality then too for a short window, then this eurodesks came out. I figured they were some sort of guitar effect because everything that you put through them was distorted.
In my mind you will NEVER recover from that until those of us that were around to hear it are all dead.

I have checked with our German engineering team and the Autocom MDX1000 is not based on a dbx unit. Would you please provide more details?

Harry, whilst you are entitled to your opinions and I respect your sentiments, I would respectfully invite you to have a discussion based on facts.

Kind regards,

Al Walker
Music Group

 

[John Roberts]

Re: MG and IP theft

Al you have been there just long enough to see the last good products rolled out. I have a saying, my idea of good sound and your idea of good sound may not be the same. Same goes for quality. It's all relative.

Al I suggest you simply take pre and post units and open them up and take lots of pictures. Also please tell us the rate of service request change since the changes were made. Basically when you mention manufacturing and china to me in the same sentence you have lost already. I believe the lowest common denominator is not a goal we should strive to achieve. Why china? Why not Germany or UK, or USA, or France, or Italy?

Thanks, but I don’t need to take pictures as I see the consoles every day and I am directly involved in the design of Midas consoles, so given that I have access to the bills of materials, I feel I know rather more than most people about what components we use. Again, I invite you to provide any evidence that any inferior parts have been used which you claim and perhaps you might want to provide pictures and facts.

I was going to say something the first time you said this.. Of course he can not document his claims. But did qualify that he was stating an opinion. Do you really intend to publish BOM costs? I think not.

Modern electronic manufacturing is highly automated so the location is irrelevant to quality, which is driven by component selection, quality assurance testing and control of the production process. Historically, Chinese manufacturing was initially attractive because of the lower labour costs, but wages now are close to those of western countries, which has led to the widespread use of automated assembly to remain competitive. Music Group invests heavily in such equipment, including a state-of-the-art $10m manufacturing facility dedicated to digital console production.

Chinese manufacturing has been highly automated for decades, while there will always be some human labor content. Hon Hai the largest CM in China has announced they will buy/build 1 million assembly robots in the coming decade.

[/FONT]The reason why so much manufacturing takes place in China is because of the critical density of companies operating here, and the massive (and accelerating) investment in supporting infrastructure that has made the Pearl River Delta region, encompassing Shenzhen, Dongguan, Guangzhou, Zhongshan (where we are located) and Zhuhai, as well as Hong Kong and Macau, the largest concentration of manufacturing in the world. It's fair to describe this region as the manufacturing equivalent of Silicon Valley, and of course many famous companies headquartered there also do their manufacturing here for the same reasons as us. I would urge you to visit this part of the world to see for yourself, and of course you are very welcome to come to see us.

Silicon Valley is famous for innovation, Chinese manufacturing is famous for low cost. They may get eclipsed by the next low cost manufacturer, but Africa is still in early stages and would take decades to repeat the accumulation of component manufacturers that China enjoys.

[/COLOR]To understand my pov, (I have no idea why you would care) you have to realize that I don't care about your profit margins, or units sold to the lowest common denominator. I only care about quality. If Midas was having problems before selling out, in my mind, they were caused by creating junk (Venice, Legend (Phew!!!), verona, etc. and gradually killing the brand. Just like when dbx felt they needed to compete with there own stolen designs and started making junk. Nothing really decent after the 166. Soundcraft went downhill rapidly with that whole spirit thing, then they started dumbing down the soundcraft line. It seems like manufacturers feel like they need to build a brand of quality up until it's considered premium, then gradually take it down the tubes for profit. Fender comes to mind. They have done this a few times. I have absolutely no financial connection to any of it so I don't mind stating my perception which seems to be more common than you realize. I really only see fanboys and people with a direct financial connection defending this guy, er empire.

I would politely ask that you consider the number of high profile users of Midas XL8 and PRO Series digital consoles, people who have the budgets to afford the very best. I won't name-drop here, but you could look on the Internet for who our users are.

I have personally been through multiple corporate ownerships during my time with Midas, and have an insider's perspective on the reality of the situations we faced, often quite different to how they are perceived externally. Under both the Telex/EVI and Bosch ownerships, we were starved of investment and regularly had recruitment freezes so couldn't even hire people for very critical work - things definitely weren't so good in the 'old days'...

The situation under Music Group is very different as outlined in my previous post, and we are in a much better position today.

Yes Music Group has done a better job of brand management than most serial acquirers. A large organization will develop new technology platforms to share among sundry subsidiaries. This takes engineering effort and putting that development effort under Midas is good for you.

Now I will say whoever designed the look of that M32, kudos, it looks sexy as hell. It's still a whore under all the makeup though.

While you are changing names, maybe change the name of this forum to what it really is.

It's tough to catch tone on the internet. I'm not mad. I'm just opinionated and stubborn. In fact I think this is all pretty funny as I kill time before doors. BTW other than the Venice in some small breakout rooms, I can't say that I have seen a Midas on a corpie show since the last time I used a Heritage 3000 in 2006. Yamaha owns the market. I don't recall seeing a midas in any church ever, but I did see DDA which by all accounts is what became all those low end Midas branded desks. You tell me. I see the Pro 6 on festivals and that's about it. Most of the band engineers seem to want digico and digidesign. I challenged you guys 2 or 3 years ago to convince me this X32 was something and had no takers. I have 1 client that purchased an M32 which I probably won't ever use, and when I discuss the lack of dugan interfacing, they tell me, behringer is going to just knock it off (copy for the rest of the world) in the software. Do you think that's OK?

The Dugan patent has long expired and the design is in the public domain, so yes it is perfectly fine for anyone to use this technology. Please remember that the purpose of a patent is to publish a design for the benefit of all (so that the innovation is not lost to the world when the inventor passes on), with the inventor getting protection for a limited period of time in return for the disclosure of the invention.

The Dugan patent was expired and public domain when I copied it last century....

I do own a piece of behringer gear. The Thoroughbred/ sam ash guy sold me a bill of goods when I walked in to buy dbx166s. I have an autocom 1000. Every other piece of gear I have been able to sell off. It's the only thing I have left from back then. No one wanted it. This was before the lawsuit. It worked fine, it's a dbx inside! The stuff was actually decent quality then too for a short window, then this eurodesks came out. I figured they were some sort of guitar effect because everything that you put through them was distorted.

In my mind you will NEVER recover from that until those of us that were around to hear it are all dead.

I have checked with our German engineering team and the Autocom MDX1000 is not based on a dbx unit. Would you please provide more details?

Harry, whilst you are entitled to your opinions and I respect your sentiments, I would respectfully invite you to have a discussion based on facts.

Kind regards,

Al Walker
Music Group

It's hard enough to keep court arguments fact based.... This is the internet so opinions dominate. Trying to manage sentiment on the WWW is difficult, good luck and don't point the hose toward the wind...

JR

PS sorry about the weird formatting but there is a ton of HTML in there that is hard to keep straight, or not worth tweaking.

 

[Dirk Martens]

Re: MG and IP theft

RIP TC Group. Brace yourself. My heart goes out to employees.!